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  #41  
Old 08-01-2014, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
For the same reason that Shadar Haran smiles when other Fades don't -- He is a direct avatar (or ROV) of the DO.
That should confer strengths rather than weaknesses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Because his direct link to the DO depends on the DO being able to maintain that link, and it was easier for the DO to do so at SG than anywhere else in the world.

SH was an avatar of the DO, basically a way for the DO to directly touch the world. It makes a lot of sense for that to be (mostly) limited to the region where he can touch the world, which means the Pit of Doom.
He can do that directly.

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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
On the other hand, there is no sensible reason why Myrddraal in general (and they alone amongst Shadowspawn) should have such a problem.
They are made from the same evil. And besides, it would explain why Darkfriends are necessary. Plenty of Fades to do the Dark One's dirty work...unless they have limitations.
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  #42  
Old 08-02-2014, 12:47 AM
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I was hoping to finish tEotW tonight, but that will have to wait till tomorrow. Instead here's a whole slew of random questions/comments:

When Moiraine's talking with Loial about the Ways, she mentions she's of the Blue Ajah. As far as I can remember, this is the first time she's done so. Maybe she mentioned it off screen to everyone else, but If not Rand and co. should be wondering if she's really Red Ajah, which at this point is made out to be the Slytherin of the White Tower.

When Moiraine leaves The Queen's Blessing, she tells Gill to get help from Sheriam if he gets in trouble because of her. Is this sort of a tEotWism, since RJ hadn't come up with a kazillion other named Aes Sedai yet? Wouldn't a Blue Sitter or the leader (forget the title) be a better option than the Mistress of Novices?

Convenient that the shopkeeper above the Waygate built a cellar with ten-foot ceilings and a bulkhead that allows horses to fit/ride down it.

It's kind of funny that Rand's more amazed at the fact that the platforms in the Ways defy gravity than the fact that's he's in another dimension that can transport him anywhere in Randland in a few hours.

It's nice of Loial to wait to warn Rand not to charge at the Waygate until after he's already gone through.

Rand apparently forgets that Min told him Thom was part of everything.

At one point Loial says you can't navigate the Ways without an Ogier guide, even if you can read the Ogier tongue. Apparently he's wrong about this.

Something I never noticed before is that the Trollocs caught in the trap in the Ways (the ones half sunk into the stone) were on the bridge that would lead them to Tar Valon, according the Loial. Were the Trollocs attacking TV and just got killed before they could make it?

How did the key go missing from the Fal Dara Waygate? Did Ingtar or some random DF from Fal Dara take it?

Did Moiraine use balefire on the Black Wind? Her weave's described as "liquid light" and "a syrup of fire," but also "a blazing spear of white and red and yellow." Not a perfect match in description, but it seems like a desperate enough time for Moiraine to use BF.

Why do they speak the Old Tongue in Shienar?

I'm wondering now about the significance of Rand's actions at Tarwin's Gap. I think a lot of people tend to forget about this (I do, at least). How many Trollocs does Rand kill here (I haven't actually gotten to this scene yet). From what Ingtar and Agelmar say, the Trollocs could easily overrun Shienar and outnumber the soldiers there ten to one. My point is, did the DO and Ishamael legitimately think they could overrun all of Randland here and start the Last Battle? Was Rand's destruction of the Trolloc army the only reason they had to wait another year or two (or whatever it is) to start the Last Battle again?

On a somewhat related note, it's kind of ironic in hindsight that Moiraine seems to legitimately believe that they can destroy the DO once and for all at the Eye.

Moiraine's conversation with Agelmar makes it nearly beyond obvious that at least one of the three boys can channel, yet they still don't seem to get it. Rand might, but then he forgets it in time to be surprised again when he really does find out he can channel. I guess you can just chalk it up to the three of them trying as hard as possible to ignore all the evidence, since it's such a horrible fate as they see it.

I'm pretty sure this is never answered, but are there any theories as to why Moiraine visited the Eye previously?

Agelmar asks how Fain could have reached the walls of Fal Dara unseen, and the only answer he gets is when Ingtar says something stupid about how the Light must have blinded the guards on the wall. But how did Fain sneak in? I forget, does he have the power to conceal himself someway? Mordeth can apparently expand and possibly shrink... But if Fain has a stealth mode you'd think he'd use it more often.

Part of Lan's oath is that he has to "stand against the Shadow so long as iron is hard and stone abides." So is released from his oath after the bubbles of evil actually make this stuff happen?

So we know the Fade who may be Shadar Haran is with Fain at Shadar Logoth. Was it his presence that enabled Ba'alzamon to appear there? I know Ba'alzamon is Ishamael and not the DO, but Ishamael doesn't seem able to appear in the world physically at this point either.

There are several mentions of other "things" residing in Shadar Logoth, despite the fact that Moiraine also says (I believe) that Mordeth and Mashadar are the only residents. There's the "unnatural assassins" from Moiraine's story that chase Caar from Shadar Logoth. Fain says the Trollocs with him were "consumed by Mashadar and other things." And when she talks about her wards in SL, Moiraine says "[Mordeth] cannot cross the ward lines, nor can any other denizen of this place. And they must hide from the sunlight, so we can leave safely once it is day." I'm guessing this is a reference to the unseen eyes or "watchers" that they feel. But what are they? Actual creatures? Ghosts of the residents of Aridhol? Even though we never see them, they apparently can come out to attack, as they did with the Trollocs. I never really thought of the watchers as being anything more than "the evil of Shadar Logoth" or something vague like that.

The fact that Fain's guidance system lead him right by Perrin (while following Rand and Mat to Caemlyn) probably rules him out as being the DR at this point, though Moiraine never mentions if she thinks this way or not.






Okay, this is just something random I thought of based on a description of Lan, but does Rand gain the extra strength/stamina/senses of a Warder after bonding the three girls? Do Aes Sedai bonded by Asha'man get this stuff?
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  #43  
Old 08-02-2014, 03:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
When Moiraine's talking with Loial about the Ways, she mentions she's of the Blue Ajah. As far as I can remember, this is the first time she's done so. Maybe she mentioned it off screen to everyone else, but If not Rand and co. should be wondering if she's really Red Ajah, which at this point is made out to be the Slytherin of the White Tower.
Back in the tree cave, she speaks of the Red Ajah as "they" rather than "we". In Rand's POV (just before the bit I quoted earlier):

Quote:
Originally Posted by TEOTW
"Child," Moiraine said gently, "only a very few can learn to touch the True Source and use the One Power. Some of those can learn to a greater degree, some to a lesser. You are one of the bare handful for whom there is no need to learn. At least, touching the Source will come to you whether you want it or not. Without the teaching you can receive in Tar Valon, though, you will never learn to channel it fully, and you may not survive. Men who have the ability to touch saidin born in them die, of course, if the Red Ajah does not find them and gentle them ..."

Thom growled deep in his throat, and Rand shifted uncomfortably. Men like those of whom the Aes Sedai spoke were rare he had only heard of three in his whole life, and thank the Light never in the Two Rivers but the damage they did before the Aes Sedai found them was always bad enough for the news to carry, like the news of wars, or earthquakes that destroyed cities. He had never really understood what the Ajahs did. According to the stories they were societies among the Aes Sedai that seemed to plot and squabble among themselves more than anything else, but the stories were clear on one point. The Red Ajah held its prime duty to be the prevention of another Breaking of the World, and they did it by hunting down every man who even dreamed of wielding the One Power. Mat and Perrin looked as if they suddenly wished they were back home in their beds.
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Originally Posted by rand View Post
When Moiraine leaves The Queen's Blessing, she tells Gill to get help from Sheriam if he gets in trouble because of her. Is this sort of a tEotWism, since RJ hadn't come up with a kazillion other named Aes Sedai yet? Wouldn't a Blue Sitter or the leader (forget the title) be a better option than the Mistress of Novices?
It doesn't have to be a TEOTWism in this case; Sheriam was someone Moiraine thought she could trust, someone close to Siuan. The real TEOTWism is Morgase thinking about Sheriam being Mistress of Novices at a time when she was probably still a novice.

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
Convenient that the shopkeeper above the Waygate built a cellar with ten-foot ceilings and a bulkhead that allows horses to fit/ride down it.
Probably because the person who had it built knew what the Waygate was. Not everything is a mere plot convenience.

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
Something I never noticed before is that the Trollocs caught in the trap in the Ways (the ones half sunk into the stone) were on the bridge that would lead them to Tar Valon, according the Loial. Were the Trollocs attacking TV and just got killed before they could make it?
Perhaps, but the bridge probably also went other places, and they might have been going wherever for a specific purpose, maybe a sword raid, rather than an attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
How did the key go missing from the Fal Dara Waygate? Did Ingtar or some random DF from Fal Dara take it?
Maybe on Ishamael's orders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
Did Moiraine use balefire on the Black Wind? Her weave's described as "liquid light" and "a syrup of fire," but also "a blazing spear of white and red and yellow." Not a perfect match in description, but it seems like a desperate enough time for Moiraine to use BF.
It's hard to tell because her channeling is tainted by the Ways. Balefire doesn't have red and yellow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
Why do they speak the Old Tongue in Shienar?
Because they value tradition and ritual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
I'm wondering now about the significance of Rand's actions at Tarwin's Gap. I think a lot of people tend to forget about this (I do, at least). How many Trollocs does Rand kill here (I haven't actually gotten to this scene yet). From what Ingtar and Agelmar say, the Trollocs could easily overrun Shienar and outnumber the soldiers there ten to one. My point is, did the DO and Ishamael legitimately think they could overrun all of Randland here and start the Last Battle? Was Rand's destruction of the Trolloc army the only reason they had to wait another year or two (or whatever it is) to start the Last Battle again?
The long winter was the first sign of the weakening seal on the Dark One's prison. They were feeling their oats, or Ishamael was, and the Dragon Reborn had yet to appear. It was as good a time to attack as any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
On a somewhat related note, it's kind of ironic in hindsight that Moiraine seems to legitimately believe that they can destroy the DO once and for all at the Eye.
Does she? I'm not so sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
I'm pretty sure this is never answered, but are there any theories as to why Moiraine visited the Eye previously?
Presumably something to do with her quest to find Rand and the involvement of the Black Ajah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
Agelmar asks how Fain could have reached the walls of Fal Dara unseen, and the only answer he gets is when Ingtar says something stupid about how the Light must have blinded the guards on the wall. But how did Fain sneak in? I forget, does he have the power to conceal himself someway? Mordeth can apparently expand and possibly shrink... But if Fain has a stealth mode you'd think he'd use it more often.
Ingtar probably let him in. We know for sure that 1) Ingtar helped him escape, and 2) Ingtar was ordered to let a Gray Man inside the gates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
So we know the Fade who may be Shadar Haran is with Fain at Shadar Logoth. Was it his presence that enabled Ba'alzamon to appear there? I know Ba'alzamon is Ishamael and not the DO, but Ishamael doesn't seem able to appear in the world physically at this point either.
Not sure about Shaidar Haran being there. I think Ishamael's ability to escape the trap has something to do with Tel'aran'rhiod.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
I'm guessing this is a reference to the unseen eyes or "watchers" that they feel. But what are they? Actual creatures? Ghosts of the residents of Aridhol? Even though we never see them, they apparently can come out to attack, as they did with the Trollocs. I never really thought of the watchers as being anything more than "the evil of Shadar Logoth" or something vague like that.
I'm guessing Mashadar absorbs the memories of the people it kills, so that they continue to exist in some small way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
The fact that Fain's guidance system lead him right by Perrin (while following Rand and Mat to Caemlyn) probably rules him out as being the DR at this point, though Moiraine never mentions if she thinks this way or not.
By the time she heard Fain's story, she already had clues. Rand's resistance, Bela, the scene with Elaida in Caemlyn. As she says, suspicions are not proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
Okay, this is just something random I thought of based on a description of Lan, but does Rand gain the extra strength/stamina/senses of a Warder after bonding the three girls? Do Aes Sedai bonded by Asha'man get this stuff?
I suppose it depends on the weave, and whether it makes a difference if the Warder is a channeler or not. Rand's bond from Alanna should have given him all those things, but Elayne's bond was something she concocted based on the Aes Sedai Warder bond, and the Asha'man bond is something they invented on their own.
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  #44  
Old 08-03-2014, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
The real TEOTWism is Morgase thinking about Sheriam being Mistress of Novices at a time when she was probably still a novice.
Wouldn't that be a TDRism?

Quote:
Does she? I'm not so sure.
Well, after Agelmar freaks out over the fact that the DO might be loose already, she replies: "Not yet. If we win at the Eye of the World, perhaps not ever again."

Granted, I guess she could just be saying this on the off chance that Rand somehow does manage to defeat the DO. The "perhaps" keeps it from being a lie, at least.

Quote:
Ingtar probably let him in. We know for sure that 1) Ingtar helped him escape, and 2) Ingtar was ordered to let a Gray Man inside the gates.
That still wouldn't explain how no one noticed him cross the field (twice) and scale the wall.





Ok, I finished.

I noticed the map at the front of tEotW (the b/w one, not the color one from later books) is pretty inaccurate in regard to Fal Dara, Fal Moran, and Tarwin's Gap. The enlarged map before the "Fal Dara" chapter seems to be the accurate one based on the info in the book (Tarwin's Gap is east of Fal Dara, not west), and the colored maps in later books seems to confirm this.

Just kind of a random speculation, but do the Worms transform into the giant octopus with stingers and hands thing in the lake? I know they supposedly don't transform anymore, but that could be the last one and it's remained hidden. It seems pretty big in any case...

When Egwene's going on about dragging everyone else along with her to Tar Valon, Moiraine comments to Rand that she can "find something for you to do in Tar Valon. [...] Not herding sheep, perhaps, but something you will find interesting." This isn't necessarily a lie, perse, but what could Rand possibly find "interesting" in TV at this stage? I guess he could find the architecture somewhat pleasing before the Red Ajah arrests and gentles him.

And a somewhat related question, are the Three Oaths around yet in Book 1? I know Tam warns Rand about how the truths AS say aren't necessarily the truths you think they're saying and all that, but are they ever said to be magically bound not to lie? In other words, was RJ working under the idea that nothing Moiraine says can be a lie?

When Rand sees the ancient symbol of the AS above the Eye tunnel entrance, he immediately recognizes it. Is this a LTT thing, or just common knowledge?

Why did the Green Man leave his post at the Eye 2000 years ago to see Avendesora in Rhuidean? Is this a mistake, or did he just have some vacation time coming after the first 1000 years?

When she's talking about how the Eye was created, Moiraine makes it clear that she knows about the channelers in Shara, but doesn't mention the Wise Ones. I know they're kind of a secret, but how would Randland Aes Sedai know all about channelers in Shara but not the Aiel Waste?

Aginor apparently know which of the three boys is the DR when he gets to the Eye. Did the DO or Ishamael finally find out, or did Aginor just sense Rand's ability to channel when they walked up?

I'm not sure I ever really understood the funny black cord things the Forsaken are sometimes attached to. I tried looking at the FAQ, but it's apparently inconsistent whether or not they always have the cords, or if they're sometimes in TAR but not other times, etc. Rand severing Asmo's cord seems to have a very different effect than severing Ishamael's cord.

Did RJ really write this with a straight face?:
Quote:
Ba'alzamon had a cord, too, he saw. A black cord, thicker by far than his own.
Has it ever been confirmed who the VOICE is? Or who the CHOSEN ONE is?

Is Kari al'Thor real in this scene? Like, has Ishamael really been torturing the soul of Rand's "mom" for the past fifteen years or whatever it's been? Or is she just an illusion?

Why does Moiraine think it's necessary for the Horn to go to Illian? I forget of this is answered in tGH or not...



Well, 1 down, 13 more to go...
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  #45  
Old 08-03-2014, 05:17 AM
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Why does Moiraine think it's necessary for the Horn to go to Illian? I forget of this is answered in tGH or not...
Everyone thinks the Horn should go to Illian, that's why the Hunt For The Horn is called there and not somewhere else.
And we never learn why this is the case, the issue is tacitly ignored once Rand conquers Tear.
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Old 08-04-2014, 02:18 AM
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I didn't get around to much reading today, so I'll just post a few things regarding the tGH prologue.

I know RJ uses a lot of references to Arthurian Legend, but Jaichim Carridin's alias Bors doesn't seem to have much of a parallel with Sir Bors. Though admittedly I don't know much about him. He gets killed by the rabbit in Monty Python, I think.

Ishamael tells everyone that the room they're in is near Shayol Ghul. So is there an actual house there? Is this supposed to be the same building Ishamael kept making Rand visit in the dreams from tEotW? I'm guessing Ishamael's Blight fortress from ToM is further away from Shayol Ghul than this.

Bors is able to tell one guy is from the Sea Folk because of tattoos on his hands, but beyond that he thinks the guy could be anyone from anywhere. But wouldn't he be black skinned?

I mentioned before that Ishamael may have needed Shaidar Haran's presence in order to appear at Shadar Logoth. Not sure if that's true at all, but the two of them appear here together...

Saying "Ba'alzamon" is apparently just as bad as saying "Shai'tan" (for DFs, at least). And come to think of it, how do people learn that the DO's name is Shai'tan anyway? If so few people say it, a Randland version of the telephone game could have drastically changed his name over the millennia (say, from Steven).

Does Ishamael know that Mat and Perrin are ta'veren, or otherwise massively important, at this point? He wants all three men killed (or maybe not; he seems a little confused on that point), but he doesn't tell the DFs which one is the actually DR. Anyway, why does Ishamael still care about Mat and Perrin? He could just have Ingtar or Liandrin kill them both easily.

Finally, I wanted to make a list of the people at the Darkfriend Ice Cream Social to see which ones we can identify (which isn't too many, at least for certain):
Bors Jaichim Carridin
Illianer noblewoman ?
Gray-cloaked 'figure' of unknown gender No idea. S/he's talking to the Illianer noblewoman, FWIW
Shienaran soldier Ingtar
Someone from Kandor ?
Someone from Cairhien Barthanes? I'm sure there's more from here, though.
Someone from Saldaea Kadere?
Someone from Ghealdan ?
A Tinker male ? I don't think Aram was a DF...
A High Lord of Tear Weiramon?
Andorran Officer in Queen's Guards Daved Hanlon?
Sea Folk male ?
Black Ajah 1 Liandrin
Black Ajah 2 ? (could be anyone, unless Alviarin mentions being here and I forgot...)


So Carridin, Ingtar, and Liandrin are the only ones we know for sure (I think).
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rand View Post
I didn't get around to much reading today, so I'll just post a few things regarding the tGH prologue.

I know RJ uses a lot of references to Arthurian Legend, but Jaichim Carridin's alias Bors doesn't seem to have much of a parallel with Sir Bors. Though admittedly I don't know much about him. He gets killed by the rabbit in Monty Python, I think.
I believe that RJ's Arthurian parallels were for the most part "we'll see where I go with this". RJ ended up not liking where he went with Carridin, so he just killed him. He was originally supposed to play a more important role.

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Ishamael tells everyone that the room they're in is near Shayol Ghul. So is there an actual house there? Is this supposed to be the same building Ishamael kept making Rand visit in the dreams from tEotW?
The description is very different. Since the Pattern is so thin at Shayol Ghul, it has properties similar to Tel'aran'rhiod. Moghedien and others seem to think that it's that way because of the Dark One, but it's more likely the original thinness through which Lanfear et al. could sense the True Power on the other side. Any houses that exist near Shayol Ghul might or might not exist in the real world.

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Bors is able to tell one guy is from the Sea Folk because of tattoos on his hands, but beyond that he thinks the guy could be anyone from anywhere. But wouldn't he be black skinned?
I think his point was that he could be anyone from anywhere if his hands weren't showing. His disguise was otherwise good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
Saying "Ba'alzamon" is apparently just as bad as saying "Shai'tan" (for DFs, at least). And come to think of it, how do people learn that the DO's name is Shai'tan anyway? If so few people say it, a Randland version of the telephone game could have drastically changed his name over the millennia (say, from Steven).
It can be written.

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Does Ishamael know that Mat and Perrin are ta'veren, or otherwise massively important, at this point?
He is probably the most skilled at reading the Pattern to find ta'veren. That is why he appears in all three of their dreams (and also because he's not entirely sure which is Lews Therin reborn).

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
He wants all three men killed (or maybe not; he seems a little confused on that point), but he doesn't tell the DFs which one is the actually DR. Anyway, why does Ishamael still care about Mat and Perrin? He could just have Ingtar or Liandrin kill them both easily.
They were both there. They may have had specific orders along those lines, but Brandon posited in TOM that trying to kill a ta'veren before their time is tricky business, so he might have been reluctant to waste his key players on such orders.

Quote:
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Finally, I wanted to make a list of the people at the Darkfriend Ice Cream Social to see which ones we can identify (which isn't too many, at least for certain):
Bors Jaichim Carridin
Illianer noblewoman --never revealed
Gray-cloaked 'figure' of unknown gender ... Bela.
Shienaran soldier Ingtar
Someone from Kandor ?
Someone from Cairhien Barthanes? ... Probably. This seems to be a meeting of the top tier power players aside from Aes Sedai, and no one else was that high in Cairhien. Weiramon might have tried to recruit Bertome Saighan later.
Someone from Saldaea Kadere? Probably not, see above. I am guessing Brandon wrote in Vram Torkumen in TOM partly because of the Darkfriend Social.
Someone from Ghealdan ? Could be anyone; we hardly knew any important people from there at all aside from Alliandre and Logain.
A Tinker male? I don't think Aram was a DF... He wasn't, and he wasn't important anyway.
A High Lord of Tear Weiramon? Almost certainly.
Andorran Officer in Queen's Guards Daved Hanlon? Possibly. I seem to remember that the timing wasn't quite right for some reason. Rahvin replaced most of the Queen's Guard with his own men—eventually, all but Tallanvor. Rahvin did not become a thing in Caemlyn until after Morgase went to Tar Valon for Elayne, and that was while they were gone from the Tower in TGH, so that hasn't happened yet at this point. I'd say it was Lord Comar but it's not exactly clear when he was dismissed from the Guard for his weighted dice.
Sea Folk male I can't remember if Brandon named one or not, but there was never a male Sea Folk Darkfriend revealed in the RJ books.
Black Ajah 1 Liandrin
Black Ajah 2 ? ... I'd guess not Alviarin. Liandrin was not a top dog, so I'm guessing the top dogs were too high to be required to attend (unlike the non-channeling Darkfriends). There were a bunch of Darkfriends with Siuan, but only Verin and Liandrin showed signs of having Very Important Orders. You could say Verin wouldn't have been stupid enough to let her ring show, but maybe she wanted to let everyone in the room know she was dangerous and to stay the fuck away from her.
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:44 AM
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I know RJ uses a lot of references to Arthurian Legend, but Jaichim Carridin's alias Bors doesn't seem to have much of a parallel with Sir Bors. Though admittedly I don't know much about him. He gets killed by the rabbit in Monty Python, I think.
Bors was Lancelot's cousin and was one of only three knights to achieve the Grail Quest - along with Galahad and Percival. So he was one of the most virtuous of the Knights of the Round Table...yeah, kind of an odd choice. You're right about the rabbit though, and in T.H. White's version he's kind of a dick.
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Old 08-05-2014, 01:38 AM
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Black Ajah 2 ? ... I'd guess not Alviarin. Liandrin was not a top dog, so I'm guessing the top dogs were too high to be required to attend (unlike the non-channeling Darkfriends). There were a bunch of Darkfriends with Siuan, but only Verin and Liandrin showed signs of having Very Important Orders. You could say Verin wouldn't have been stupid enough to let her ring show, but maybe she wanted to let everyone in the room know she was dangerous and to stay the fuck away from her.
Yeah, I just checked your interview database and Maria said (to you, I think) that Verin was there. She could always be the weird one in the gray cloak, I guess. Riding Bela.





The "The Wheel of Time turns..." intro thing is different in this book. I don't remember if others read like this, but the wording is pretty different from what I recall.

When the wind traps Rand, is this just an early Bubble of Evil? Or do "strange things" really happen around the Blight? Or maybe a combination of the two, and small Bubbles are common closer to Shayol Ghul?

I forget of this is answered later on, but where did Moiraine go in the first chapter (outside of Fal Dara)?


Quote:
"Time for a little balance work. Go through Parting the Silk, beginning from Heron Wading in the Rushes. Remember that that Heron form is only for practicing balance. Anywhere but doing forms, it leaves you wide open; you can strike home from it, if you wait for the other man to move first, but you'll never avoid his blade."
I tried to check if Heron Wading in the Rushes was used by Lan with Demandred, but it doesn't look like it. I thought, for some reason, that Rand used it to kill Turak, but I checked that too and it doesn't seem like it. Woulld've been a cool Karate Kid-esque moment, I guess.

Does the White Tower marching band appear again? Which side of the schism did they side with?

Why does Moiraine give Rand the cloak with LTT's dragon on it? He could've not noticed it and started walking around Fal Dara with it.

I know it's kind of a running joke in the series, but is there really no one out of all Shienar's soldiers who is strong enough to draw Rand's bow?

How does the Gray Man follow Rand around? It mentions that Rand closes the doors of the rooms behind him, so is it just sneaking by right in front of his face? In later encounters, Rand and Perrin seem to have little trouble seeing Gray Men (probably ta'veren stuff going on), so he should be able to see one slipping through a door he's closing.

Is Mat's dicing with the Shienaran "menials" the first time we see his luck?

Why doesn't Fain corrupt Moiraine, Egwene, or Nynaeve? They apparently spend a lot of time with him.

The Aiel crossing the Spine was a huge deal in the Aiel War, yet they apparently raid Shienar regularly, for some reason.

I didn't remember that Moiraine was a wilder.

And I also forgot that the Sea Folk AS are mentioned this early on.

At one point, Siuan says "The Great Hunt [was] called without any of us having a hint of it until the proclamation." I'm not sure if this is meant to be taken suspiciously or not. But did Ishamael call the Hunt so he could try to get the Horn away from the Light? If it was just Illian calling the Hunt because it felt "right" to do so at the time, you'd think they'd still have all kinds of events and ceremonies and stuff that the Amyrlim would have heard of. Though somehow Faile heard about it...

Thought this was cool foreshadowing (from Siuan):
Quote:
"Tetsuan and Bonwhin were kept in the White Tower as servants. Scullery maids, who could be pointed to as cautions as to what can happen to the mightiest. No one can rally around a woman who must scrub floors and pots all day. Pity her, yes, but not rally to her."

Why do the AS in the Tower care what Moiraine is running around doing? Is it just because it's unusual behavior for an AS? But isn't running around in the "outside world" what Blues are supposed to be doing?

If nothing can break cuendillar, then how does anyone know that channeling at it makes it stronger? But assuming Moiraine believes this is true, shouldn't she channel everything she's got at it when she finds a Seal that's still intact?

How long have they been in Fal Dara now? Moiraine's taking a pretty big risk that Rand won't just run away and die under a bush somewhere.

Though I didn't really mind it, Fain's death and overall importance at the end are kind of anticlimactic considering Siuan says "the world would be doomed" if Mordeth ever escape from Shadar Logoth.
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Old 08-05-2014, 05:26 AM
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Yeah, I just checked your interview database...
Good job.

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When the wind traps Rand, is this just an early Bubble of Evil?
Yes, RJ said so.

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I forget of this is answered later on, but where did Moiraine go in the first chapter (outside of Fal Dara)?
Not answered later on. Most theories center around her search for answers.

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
I tried to check if Heron Wading in the Rushes was used by Lan with Demandred, but it doesn't look like it. I thought, for some reason, that Rand used it to kill Turak, but I checked that too and it doesn't seem like it. Woulld've been a cool Karate Kid-esque moment, I guess.
He used it with Ishamael.

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Does the White Tower marching band appear again? Which side of the schism did they side with?
Elaida sent them all to the dungeons.

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I know it's kind of a running joke in the series, but is there really no one out of all Shienar's soldiers who is strong enough to draw Rand's bow?
Exaggeration is a hallmark of RJ's writing. He has a way of making it seem normal. Like one time when an Aes Sedai (Merana? I don't remember) literally falls out of her chair from shock. Not a very memorable scene for most readers.

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How does the Gray Man follow Rand around? It mentions that Rand closes the doors of the rooms behind him, so is it just sneaking by right in front of his face? In later encounters, Rand and Perrin seem to have little trouble seeing Gray Men (probably ta'veren stuff going on), so he should be able to see one slipping through a door he's closing.
One could argue that their ta'verenness grew stronger and/or their paranoia grew sharper.

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Is Mat's dicing with the Shienaran "menials" the first time we see his luck?
Yeah, sort of. It doesn't really kick in until Tar Valon. In the Two Rivers he got into some kind of trouble for owing money to a merchant's guard.

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Why doesn't Fain corrupt Moiraine, Egwene, or Nynaeve? They apparently spend a lot of time with him.
Certain kinds of people are more susceptible. People who dream of glory and lack scruples, like Turak and Niall and Elaida, or any sort of Darkfriend.

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The Aiel crossing the Spine was a huge deal in the Aiel War, yet they apparently raid Shienar regularly, for some reason.
For fun. Why else?

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I didn't remember that Moiraine was a wilder.
Different Aes Sedai define it in different ways. Moiraine hadn't channeled enough before going to the Tower to develop a block, so most wouldn't consider her to be a wilder. She grew up around Aes Sedai and had an idea of what she was doing.

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At one point, Siuan says "The Great Hunt [was] called without any of us having a hint of it until the proclamation." I'm not sure if this is meant to be taken suspiciously or not. But did Ishamael call the Hunt so he could try to get the Horn away from the Light? If it was just Illian calling the Hunt because it felt "right" to do so at the time, you'd think they'd still have all kinds of events and ceremonies and stuff that the Amyrlim would have heard of. Though somehow Faile heard about it...
The proclamation wasn't the same thing as the oathgiving ceremony. The news of the proclamation started going out just around the time they left the Two Rivers; people flocked to Illian to take the oaths, but at this point, if I recall, the Hunt hasn't yet set out officially. They don't start coming across Hunters until TDR, and they are near Illian then.

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Why do the AS in the Tower care what Moiraine is running around doing? Is it just because it's unusual behavior for an AS? But isn't running around in the "outside world" what Blues are supposed to be doing?
Because they are trying to come up with reasons to get rid of Siuan. Remember, the angst in the Hall was being stirred up by Darkfriends.

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If nothing can break cuendillar, then how does anyone know that channeling at it makes it stronger?
Presumably because those with the talent can sense the strength of the matrices.

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But assuming Moiraine believes this is true, shouldn't she channel everything she's got at it when she finds a Seal that's still intact?
She knows something unnatural is weakening them, so best not to risk it.

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How long have they been in Fal Dara now? Moiraine's taking a pretty big risk that Rand won't just run away and die under a bush somewhere.
http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm

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Though I didn't really mind it, Fain's death and overall importance at the end are kind of anticlimactic considering Siuan says "the world would be doomed" if Mordeth ever escape from Shadar Logoth.
RJ said that the Aes Sedai overestimated how quickly the taint could be spread, but also, the escape of Mordeth was tempered by the strength and opposition of his host.
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Old 08-06-2014, 01:40 AM
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He used it with Ishamael.
Ah, ok. Not sure why I didn't remember that. I was pretty sure it was used somewhere though.





What's Fain's overall plan in this book? Does he just want to create chaos in Falme and then lure Rand there, in the off chance Rand gets killed there? Doesn't he want to kill Rand himself? I found it weird that he runs across half of Randland to use the Cairhien Waygate specifically. Is this just Fain's idea of getting revenge on Rand for being forced the chase Rand throughout book 1?

I know RJ said that Ingtar freed Fain. So does that mean he also knocked out Egwene and Mat? They both seem to have suffered memory loss from the attack, but you'd think Ingtar would be a little worried that they'd remember it was him who attacked them.

This is from a little earlier in the book, but what is Fain looking at through the dungeon walls? The dagger makes sense, and he can still sense the three boys, but Rand specifically notes that Fain's probably looking at the women's quarters. Is he sensing the Black Ajah members there? Can he somehow sense Moiraine and Siuan?

Who ordered all the doors of the keep closed earlier? It clearly wasn't Agelmar, and Lan's "troubled look" (or something like that) makes it seem like it wasn't Moiraine. So was it just Ingtar?

Who wrote the Dark Prophecy? Verin says it must have been a Fade or an "educated darkfriend," but knowing what we know about Verin now, does the educated DF refer to herself? I don't know if she necessarily wrote something on the walls in the dungeon, or just made up the whole thing to tell Siuan and Moiraine.

This might be explained in New Spring or somewhere else, but why do the Aiel attack Tar Valon in the Aiel War? Isn't their plan to kill Laman and leave, as quickly as possible? It seems like they could have easily snuck five Aiel into Cairhien overnight and assassinated him, rather than starting an entire war, let alone attacking a city a hundred miles away from where their target is.

When talking to Rand, Siuan says that people in Arad Doman believe the DO is dead. I don't remember this really being a thing later in the series with Domani characters, so I'm guessing RJ just dropped the idea.

When Ingtar and everyone finally leave Fal Dara, Hurin says the trail leads south. Everyone's surprised, but Ingtar says that Siuan suspected this would be the case. Why? How could Siuan possibly have predicted this?

The guys in Illian just want Domon Bayle's seal, right? Instead of concocting an elaborate ruse that involves paying Bayle to sail to Mayene, forging Galldrian's signature on a fake note, having Bayle's ship searched be random people who know nothing about the seal, and presumably following Bayle to Mayene so they can actually get the seal, couldn't they just...kill him and take the seal?
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Old 08-06-2014, 02:55 AM
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This might be explained in New Spring or somewhere else, but why do the Aiel attack Tar Valon in the Aiel War? Isn't their plan to kill Laman and leave, as quickly as possible? It seems like they could have easily snuck five Aiel into Cairhien overnight and assassinated him, rather than starting an entire war, let alone attacking a city a hundred miles away from where their target is.
IIRC, they attacked Tar Valon because that's where Laman and the wetlands armies retreated to.
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  #53  
Old 08-06-2014, 03:21 AM
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IIRC, they attacked Tar Valon because that's where Laman and the wetlands armies retreated to.
All right, yeah. Forgot that Laman was over there. It stills seems odd that the Aiel would basically declare war on Cairhien when all they care about is killing Laman specifically.
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Old 08-06-2014, 05:09 AM
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Who wrote the Dark Prophecy? Verin says it must have been a Fade or an "educated darkfriend," but knowing what we know about Verin now, does the educated DF refer to herself? I don't know if she necessarily wrote something on the walls in the dungeon, or just made up the whole thing to tell Siuan and Moiraine.
Not all of it was made up, seeing as how Rand found writings there which he was erasing when Liandrin appeared.

Quote:
This might be explained in New Spring or somewhere else, but why do the Aiel attack Tar Valon in the Aiel War? Isn't their plan to kill Laman and leave, as quickly as possible? It seems like they could have easily snuck five Aiel into Cairhien overnight and assassinated him, rather than starting an entire war, let alone attacking a city a hundred miles away from where their target is.
For all we know, they had tried the "send a few to kill him" approach and failed. The Pattern wanted to get Rand born on Dragonmount, after all.
Then again, while Laman was the symbol they were after, it was not just him. A treaty had been made between all the Aiel on the one hand and the Cairhienin on the other, and the Cairhienin had broken the treaty. That meant war, and a good way of starting a war is to march an army into a country with the explicit goal of killing its king. And then you can end the war by actually doing that killing and leaving again.

Quote:
When talking to Rand, Siuan says that people in Arad Doman believe the DO is dead. I don't remember this really being a thing later in the series with Domani characters, so I'm guessing RJ just dropped the idea.
Or maybe the Domani did.

Quote:
The guys in Illian just want Domon Bayle's seal, right? Instead of concocting an elaborate ruse that involves paying Bayle to sail to Mayene, forging Galldrian's signature on a fake note, having Bayle's ship searched be random people who know nothing about the seal, and presumably following Bayle to Mayene so they can actually get the seal, couldn't they just...kill him and take the seal?
Based on the fact that when they tried that, they failed, when they tried again they failed again and when they tried a third time, that too failed, I suspect that they thought that the answer was "no".
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Old 08-06-2014, 01:12 PM
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What's Fain's overall plan in this book? Does he just want to create chaos in Falme and then lure Rand there, in the off chance Rand gets killed there? Doesn't he want to kill Rand himself? I found it weird that he runs across half of Randland to use the Cairhien Waygate specifically. Is this just Fain's idea of getting revenge on Rand for being forced the chase Rand throughout book 1?
He used the Cairhien Waygate because he knew where it was located:

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Interview: Jul 19th, 2005
TOR Questions of the Week Part III


Week 10 Question
In The Great Hunt, who wrote the Dark Prophecy on the dungeon wall in Fal Dara? And why, after Ingtar released Padan Fain from the dungeon, did Fain decide to go to Toman Head? We know he was rebelling against Ishamael's orders (he was supposed to follow the Myrddraal to Shayol Ghul) but why did Fain go to Cairhien and then to Toman Head?

Robert Jordan
A Myrddraal wrote the Dark Prophecy on orders, as a threat. I might want to use some of the reasons, so the rest on that is RAFO.

Fain (now amalgamated with Mordeth) was seeking his own power base, something he would try again with Pedron Niall and Toram Riatin. He wanted enough power to be able to kill Rand, Mat and Perrin, though most especially Rand, and to protect himself against agents of the Shadow. Because of Darkfriend reports, the Myrddraal who wrote the prophecy already knew who the strangers on Toman Head were, or claimed to be: Artur Hawkwing's armies returned to reclaim the lands stolen from Hawkwing's heirs. He knew that they collared women who could channel, which appealed to Fain/Mordeth, since one disliked Aes Sedai at best and the other purely hated them. The Myrddraal didn't simply give this up to Fain, you understand. Fain is one of the few people who could successfully torture information out of one of the Eyeless. As for why he went to Cairhien first, he knew the location of the Waygate there (along with several others and how to read the guidings in the Ways, this last from Mordeth) and preferred to use the Ways rather than make the longer cross-country journey from Fal Dara to Toman Head.

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Who wrote the Dark Prophecy? Verin says it must have been a Fade or an "educated darkfriend," but knowing what we know about Verin now, does the educated DF refer to herself? I don't know if she necessarily wrote something on the walls in the dungeon, or just made up the whole thing to tell Siuan and Moiraine.
See above. It was a Myrddraal.
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Old 08-06-2014, 03:05 PM
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Thanks for the quote, Marie. I'd think it would be easier for Fain and his small army of Trollocs to simply break through into the Fal Dara Waygate, but maybe he didn't have enough influence over the Fade so soon after escaping.



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Not all of it was made up, seeing as how Rand found writings there which he was erasing when Liandrin appeared.
It's still possible that Verin purposely told Siuan and Moiraine something completely different from what was written on the walls, I guess.
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Old 08-07-2014, 02:03 AM
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I know the weird repeating room with the flies thing in the village is Fain's work. And the ghosts of the two dead renegade Asha'man later in Far Madding are too, right? Assuming Fain is the one who impersonated Sammael in KoD, was that basically the same kind of illusion? Does Fain have the power to make illusions only of people he's actually killed (assuming Mashadar killing Sammael equals that)?

The Darkfriends with Fain don't seem to be from Fal Dara. We're they dropped off there after the DF Social?

Maybe this is answered later, but why can't certain people open the box the Horn is in? Moiraine, Siuan, Lanfear, and Turak are able to, but Fain can't despite presumably a lot of effort.

Fain says he can't sense Rand when Rand's doing his "vanishing trick." Does this just mean when he's in the void/holding the OP?

FWIW, Egwene and Nynaeve and all of them must pass by the Field of Merrilor on their way to Tar Valon.

Did Rand actually send everyone to the mirror world accidentally in his sleep, or did Lanfear do it? Rand's own PoV makes it seem like it was him, but Egwene's dream shows Lanfear standing over Rand while he sleeps before there's a flash of light and they're all gone. If Lanfear got them there in the first place, is she also responsible for getting them back? She knows Rand has no clue what he's doing at this point. And Rand's later attempt at using a Portal Stone to go to Toman's Head isn't exactly an enormous success.

What happened when Rand's void "shatters" in the mirror world? He seems to feel the Taint for the first time. I know there's been discussion about this, but I couldn't remember what it was exactly...

Do we have any idea what happened in this mirror world? Assuming the Trollocs won and then killed everything (including themselves), where did all the weird Seanchan things come from? Are they just mutant creatures that escaped whatever happened? Were they mutated by whatever burned the trees and created the smoke lines in the sky?

How does Lanfear know all about the Seanchan creatures? Did she visit Toman's Head or Seanchan before seeking out Rand?

When Ishamael appears to Rand (right before he gets his first brand), Ishamael says he knows that Moiraine told him he's the DR. Is this something Verin would have told him? I don't think anyone else knew aside from her, Siuan, Moiraine, and Rand himself.

When they finally recover the Horn and dagger, Rand explains about Mat's need for the dagger, and Loial says something like "Ah, so that's what was wrong with him!" But Loial should have known all that already, as he was there when Moiraine explained everything in Caemlyn.
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Old 08-07-2014, 03:35 AM
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There's a trick to opening the chest, and if you don't know the trick, then discovering it is not easy.

I think that Lanfear brought them there, and Rand brought them back. The reason why Rand's second attempt is "differently successful" is that he is then also using the "travel between worlds" method, which is not quite the same as the "travel within a world" one, and it is the latter he should have used.

I think that Lanfear brought those Grolm there. I also think that the huge packs they heard at the end were not real; they were just sound effects produced by Lanfear to spur them on. I admit that I do not have actual evidence for this, and I can't remember having convinced anyone else that it is correct. So other explanations are also proposed.

Loial may not have known that the dagger was missing, and he may have thought that Moiraine had cured Mat by that time, possibly with the help of other AS.
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Old 08-07-2014, 03:45 AM
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I know the weird repeating room with the flies thing in the village is Fain's work.
Retrospectively. There's a spiel in the notes about how and why Lanfear did it, but RJ said on tour that it was Fain.

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
And the ghosts of the two dead renegade Asha'man later in Far Madding are too, right? Assuming Fain is the one who impersonated Sammael in KoD, was that basically the same kind of illusion? Does Fain have the power to make illusions only of people he's actually killed (assuming Mashadar killing Sammael equals that)?
That is my guess. I don't know if the fly trap is the same logic, but I always used the Far Madding incident to explain Sammael. The theory was that Mashadar was a part of Fain/Mordeth, which made its way into the books, whether by RJ's decision or Brandon's, I don't know.

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
The Darkfriends with Fain don't seem to be from Fal Dara. We're they dropped off there after the DF Social?
Not clear. He picked up more along the way, though.

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
Maybe this is answered later, but why can't certain people open the box the Horn is in? Moiraine, Siuan, Lanfear, and Turak are able to, but Fain can't despite presumably a lot of effort.
Like Gonzo said, Fain just didn't know the trick of opening them.

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
Fain says he can't sense Rand when Rand's doing his "vanishing trick." Does this just mean when he's in the void/holding the OP?
Yes. (The void.)

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
FWIW, Egwene and Nynaeve and all of them must pass by the Field of Merrilor on their way to Tar Valon.
Brandon was never very clear about where it was. There were two contradicting descriptions in the book - just north of Tar Valon, and near the border with Shienar. It can't be both, unless mapscale is really not your strong suit.

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
Did Rand actually send everyone to the mirror world accidentally in his sleep, or did Lanfear do it? Rand's own PoV makes it seem like it was him, but Egwene's dream shows Lanfear standing over Rand while he sleeps before there's a flash of light and they're all gone. If Lanfear got them there in the first place, is she also responsible for getting them back?
The first time was probably Lanfear, the second time was probably Rand, judging by her reaction. She's just trying to make him use the Power (same reason why she set the fly trap, that is before it was Fain).

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
What happened when Rand's void "shatters" in the mirror world? He seems to feel the Taint for the first time. I know there's been discussion about this, but I couldn't remember what it was exactly...
He just loses control. He's working without a teacher. Also, he didn't feel the taint at the Eye because he was using untainted saidin.

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
Do we have any idea what happened in this mirror world? Assuming the Trollocs won and then killed everything (including themselves), where did all the weird Seanchan things come from? Are they just mutant creatures that escaped whatever happened? Were they mutated by whatever burned the trees and created the smoke lines in the sky?
The creatures came from other worlds in the first place.

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
How does Lanfear know all about the Seanchan creatures? Did she visit Toman's Head or Seanchan before seeking out Rand?
She probably knows about them from the Age of Legends, and it might have actually been easier for her to go to the original source than to hunt anything out in Randland.

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
When Ishamael appears to Rand (right before he gets his first brand), Ishamael says he knows that Moiraine told him he's the DR. Is this something Verin would have told him?
Probably, but I wouldn't say that was his only option.
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Old 08-07-2014, 09:17 AM
Tollingtoy Tollingtoy is offline
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So, any idea what the reasons were why the Fade wrote the Dark Prophecy there that RJ wanted to RAFO?
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