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  #61  
Old 08-07-2014, 09:21 AM
Tollingtoy Tollingtoy is offline
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Originally Posted by rand View Post
Assuming Fain is the one who impersonated Sammael in KoD,
Has this been conclusively proven? I always thought Moghedien basically admitted to it in AMOL when she talked about impersonating other Chosen?

Last edited by Tollingtoy; 08-07-2014 at 09:24 AM.
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  #62  
Old 08-07-2014, 01:33 PM
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I think that Lanfear brought those Grolm there. I also think that the huge packs they heard at the end were not real; they were just sound effects produced by Lanfear to spur them on. I admit that I do not have actual evidence for this, and I can't remember having convinced anyone else that it is correct. So other explanations are also proposed.
I was kind of thinking along those lines as well. For some reason I thought the grolm were stated to be native to this world somewhere (the BWB maybe?), but it could just be mirror worlds in general that they're from.

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Brandon was never very clear about where it was. There were two contradicting descriptions in the book - just north of Tar Valon, and near the border with Shienar. It can't be both, unless mapscale is really not your strong suit.
I forgot it was mentioned as being north of Tar Valon. I was going by the map in aMoL, which shows it to be at the meeting of the Mora and Erinin Rivers, the southwest corner of Shienar.

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Originally Posted by Tollingtoy View Post
Has this been conclusively proven? I always thought Moghedien basically admitted to it in AMOL when she talked about impersonating other Chosen?
I have no idea, really. I think that "Fain sent the Trollocs" was the most popular theory at one point. Not sure if that changed after aMoL.
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  #63  
Old 08-07-2014, 02:40 PM
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Ah yes, the map. In TOM Rand said it was "just" north of Tar Valon. In any case, it was apparently invented by Team Jordan. RJ wanted the battle to take place at Caemlyn.
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  #64  
Old 08-07-2014, 03:04 PM
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RJ wanted the battle to take place at Caemlyn.
So they basically said, "Screw that, let's have the battle take place somewhere no one's heard of and no one cares about"?
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  #65  
Old 08-07-2014, 08:22 PM
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I think it was a problem of logistics.
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  #66  
Old 08-08-2014, 02:45 AM
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Do Draghkar destroy souls permanently, so you can't be reborn ever again? If not, what's the point of sucking out the souls? Unless someone happens to interrupt the soul sucking process, the Draghkar just kills you, in which case you probably wouldn't care if you still had a soul or not.

After the Draghkar is killed, Moiraine says she discovered the answer to a question she didn't know she had. What is it? I checked EWOT, but they seem to think it's that Fain=Mordeth. But Moiraine was clearly searching for something along those lines, both through books and questioning Vandene, so that doesn't make sense. Is it something to do with Liandrin, or the Black Ajah in general?

During Nynaeve's Accepted Test, we get what I think is the first mention of there being a Gray Ajah, outside of the glossary. It still isn't mentioned what their specific function is, though. Just thought this was kind of weird.




Ok, here's a mini-theory I thought of. I remember RJ said somewhere that Nynaeve's ability to channel in the Accepted ter'angreal was significant. After she gets out the first time she tells Sheriam she channeled inside, and Sheriam kind of freaks out. We get a brief history, which says that the first few AS to use the ter'angreal went in with various OP wards and came back burned out. Whatever really happened, the AS logically assume that entering the ter'angreal with OP wards will probably kill you.

Well anyway, since we now know that Sheriam was Black...did she put inverted wards around Nynaeve before they got in the testing room, hoping that Nynaeve would be killed? I don't remember if the AS knew about inverting, but a Forsaken could have shown her how.




A few more things about Nynaeve's test:

Why can she seemingly remember everything from the real world in the third test, but not in the other two?

How does she make the arch come back?

How does the ter'angreal work? Sheriam mentions mirror worlds. Does it just temporarily put you into a mirror world version of yourself (ie, Nynaeve is actually doing all these things in various mirror worlds)? This makes sense for the second and third test. The first one seems a little weird to be an alternate life for Nynaeve (getting chased through the maze by Aginor), but she can apparently sense saidin here, so maybe this particular mirror world is different enough that somehow she is being chased for possibly being the DR?

Whatever the case, I'm guessing the testing ter'angreal was originally intended to study mirror worlds.




Does Min's viewing of a severed hand for Elayne ever happen? Was it supposed to be connected to Rand's bloody hand and red (white?) hot iron?
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  #67  
Old 08-08-2014, 02:56 AM
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Does Min's viewing of a severed hand for Elayne ever happen?
Elayne's adoption of the Band of the Red Hand and their artillery fits that viewing. The BotRH was severed from Rand's or anyone else's service at that point.
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  #68  
Old 08-08-2014, 04:52 AM
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After the Draghkar is killed, Moiraine says she discovered the answer to a question she didn't know she had. What is it? I checked EWOT, but they seem to think it's that Fain=Mordeth. But Moiraine was clearly searching for something along those lines, both through books and questioning Vandene, so that doesn't make sense. Is it something to do with Liandrin, or the Black Ajah in general?
Sort of. It is that the BA knows enough to target Moiraine specifically, which in turn means that they almost certainly also know to go after Rand. And that they had managed to track Moiraine to the two sisters, while she hadn't told anyone where she was going.
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  #69  
Old 08-08-2014, 08:26 AM
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The long winter was the first sign of the weakening seal on the Dark One's prison. They were feeling their oats, or Ishamael was, and the Dragon Reborn had yet to appear. It was as good a time to attack as any.

Yeah they need a lot of fibre before the attack.



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  #70  
Old 08-08-2014, 07:26 PM
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After the Draghkar is killed, Moiraine says she discovered the answer to a question she didn't know she had. What is it? I checked EWOT, but they seem to think it's that Fain=Mordeth. But Moiraine was clearly searching for something along those lines, both through books and questioning Vandene, so that doesn't make sense. Is it something to do with Liandrin, or the Black Ajah in general?
Fain=Mordeth is the only thing that makes sense. The thing Vandene said in passing is that Mordeth was waiting for a soul to steal. Moiraine hadn't considered that possibility before then. It was what Fain managed to hold back when she questioned him in Fal Dara.
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  #71  
Old 08-09-2014, 03:15 AM
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A problem with that theory is that it is directly contradicted by Moiraine herself:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEOTW, Chapter 19, Shadow's Waiting
"Mordeth alone was not consumed by Mashadar, but he was snared by it, and he, too, has waited within these walls through the long centuries. Others have seen him. Some he has influenced through gifts that twist the mind and taint the spirit, the taint waxing and waning until it rules ... or kills. If ever he convinces someone to accompany him to the walls, to the boundary of Mashadar's power, he will be able to consume the soul of that person. Mordeth will leave, wearing the body of the one he worse than killed, to wreak his evil on the world again."
I have a question on the English language now: what does the title of that chapter mean?

Two options:
"The waiting of the Shadow."
"The Shadow is waiting."
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  #72  
Old 08-09-2014, 10:24 AM
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The first. The second requires "the".
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  #73  
Old 08-09-2014, 11:39 PM
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Oh, and on the beginning of your post, which I just now noticed, it was Fain=Mordeth she hadn't considered. Vandene just reminded her of the legend of Mordeth at an opportune time.
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  #74  
Old 08-10-2014, 12:42 AM
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When Ingtar and co. meet Urien, he says Verin's agelessness reminds him of the Wise Ones. Is this just a mistake? WOs don't get that without the Oath Rod, right?

This is possibly just coincidence, but since Galldrian's symbol is a stag, does the Stag and Lion in Baerlon refer to Cairhien and Andor?

How did Fain get the Trollocs into Cairhien and all the way to Barthanes' house without anyone seeing them? In the back of a cart or something?

A question about Perrin's eyes...Moiraine seems to know what's up right away after rescuing him in tEotW, and Elyas and his condition seem fairly well-known. So do most AS know that yellow eyes means a wolfbrother? Is it probably safe to assume that Verin, at least, knows?

When talking about the Choedan Kal, Verin says one channeler alone couldn't use one to Break the World again. How does she know this? It's false, apparently, as Rand seems pretty capable of blowing up the world at the end of tGS.

A few sentences later Verin also says that Logain isn't strong enough to channel the Choedan Kal. Regardless of whether or not this is true (he's pretty strong, right?), how would Verin have any way of knowing Logain's strength in the OP?

The Waygate leaf works differently in this book (and maybe the others after, I'm not sure). In tEotW, Moiraine has to pull the leaf off and stick it somewhere else. But now all Rand does is take the leaf and the gates start to open.

Why can the Black Wind escape now when it seemingly couldn't in tEotW?

I guess it's just Rand being a ta'veren, but it's a little odd that Barthanes more or less admits that he's a DF when giving Rand Fain's message.

Everyone's shocked that Fain can somehow control the Black Wind, despite the fact that Moiraine told them this in tEotW. Or they knew the Black Wind feared him, at least.

Did Galldrian really try to kill Thom? And with a guy that everyone apparently knows (for some reason) is Galldrian's assassin. I know there's the Great Game and all that, but it seems a bit odd. I guess my point is, did someone try to trick Thom into assassinating Galldrian? Maybe Verin wanted to create chaos in the DR's wake? Maybe Toram Riatin was around and wanted to off his brother (father? cousin? uncle?). Or maybe the innkeeper Zera lied about the whole thing because she doesn't like the king...

I don't remember if this is answered later, but what happens to the DFs and Trollocs Fain brings with him to Toman Head? It seems like he plans on having them attack Falme and making it seem like Rand's doing, but when Rand doesn't show up... Where do they go?

If Fain had the Black Wind blocking the Waygates, how did expect Rand to follow him? Did he see the Portal Stone in Kinslayer's Dagger and assume Rand must have used it to get ahead of him?

Why does Turak believe in Trollocs when Tuon and everyone else from Seanchan doesn't?




And finally...who killed Barthanes? Was it really just the gholam, as everyone seems to assume? My thought was that it could have been Fain:

1) Barthanes is said to have been "torn to pieces," not ripped limb from limb. There might not be a huge distinction between the two, but:

2) From what Zera describes, the attack is similar to what Fain had the Trollocs do to the villagers back in chapter 11. He has the Trollocs eat everyone and leave whatever's left in a pile with the heads placed "neatly" on top. And Barthanes' head was on a spike over the fireplace (because everyone has a spike for severed heads on their mantle...).

3) When Rand, Hurin, and Loial are climbing back out of the fenced-in Waygate area, this happens:
Quote:
tGH 33
Rand landed on his feet with a thud, listening and peering into the night. For a moment he thought he saw something move, heard a boot scrape on the brick wall, but neither was repeated, and he dismissed it as nervousness. He thought that he had a right to be nervous. He turned to help Hurin down.
My overall thought was that Fain left a Trolloc or two behind to kill Barthanes (not sure why--maybe because he's a DF, and seemingly living the easy life in a manor house instead of being turned into a hound like Fain). Obviously there are problems with this idea, such as Trollocs being somewhat poor stealthy assassins. Also, Hurin would have probably sniffed them. But it's a decent alternative to the "the gholam did it" theory.


Also, assuming Rand wasn't hearing Trollocs hiding in the gardens behind Barthanes' house, who or what did he hear hiding back there?
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  #75  
Old 08-10-2014, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rand View Post
When Ingtar and co. meet Urien, he says Verin's agelessness reminds him of the Wise Ones. Is this just a mistake? WOs don't get that without the Oath Rod, right?
People have attempted to explain this outside of it being a TGHism, but not convincingly IMO.

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This is possibly just coincidence, but since Galldrian's symbol is a stag, does the Stag and Lion in Baerlon refer to Cairhien and Andor?
It symbolizes the marriage of Robert and Cersei.

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How did Fain get the Trollocs into Cairhien and all the way to Barthanes' house without anyone seeing them? In the back of a cart or something?
As I mentioned before, Loial said the area was wooded before Barthanes's manor was built; there's probably not much around the area.

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A question about Perrin's eyes...Moiraine seems to know what's up right away after rescuing him in tEotW, and Elyas and his condition seem fairly well-known. So do most AS know that yellow eyes means a wolfbrother? Is it probably safe to assume that Verin, at least, knows?
It might not be the commonest knowledge, but yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
When talking about the Choedan Kal, Verin says one channeler alone couldn't use one to Break the World again. How does she know this? It's false, apparently, as Rand seems pretty capable of blowing up the world at the end of tGS.
RJ has said repeatedly that Aes Sedai are not always right, and they believe a lot of things that aren't true. I believe this specific example has been addressed in the metacanon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
A few sentences later Verin also says that Logain isn't strong enough to channel the Choedan Kal. Regardless of whether or not this is true (he's pretty strong, right?), how would Verin have any way of knowing Logain's strength in the OP?
At this point she could know, in a general way, by way of the sisters who held his shield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
The Waygate leaf works differently in this book (and maybe the others after, I'm not sure). In tEotW, Moiraine has to pull the leaf off and stick it somewhere else. But now all Rand does is take the leaf and the gates start to open.
Machin Shin was happy to see him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
Why can the Black Wind escape now when it seemingly couldn't in tEotW?
It might not exactly be able to. Maybe it can only push the boundaries a bit. And since it got to know Fain, it absorbed Fain's compulsion to kill Rand, so maybe it's simply never been so compelled to try to get out before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
Everyone's shocked that Fain can somehow control the Black Wind, despite the fact that Moiraine told them this in tEotW. Or they knew the Black Wind feared him, at least.
Big difference there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
Did Galldrian really try to kill Thom? And with a guy that everyone apparently knows (for some reason) is Galldrian's assassin. I know there's the Great Game and all that, but it seems a bit odd. I guess my point is, did someone try to trick Thom into assassinating Galldrian? Maybe Verin wanted to create chaos in the DR's wake? Maybe Toram Riatin was around and wanted to off his brother (father? cousin? uncle?). Or maybe the innkeeper Zera lied about the whole thing because she doesn't like the king...
It was probably a great surprise to them that they weren't successful. I don't find it all that hard to believe that Galldrian wanted him killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
If Fain had the Black Wind blocking the Waygates, how did expect Rand to follow him?
See above. I don't think he necessarily gave it orders. That said, he's never been a very consistent person. We know he had an obsession with killing Rand personally, yet he sent his turned Whitecloaks to kill him in LOC. And thought to himself that he would have been angry if they had been successful.

Quote:
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Why does Turak believe in Trollocs when Tuon and everyone else from Seanchan doesn't?
1) He had probably already heard tell of them from other Randlanders, and 2) he didn't necessarily believe. "I will have watch kept for your Trollocs and your Darkfriends, if they are not another lie."

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And finally...who killed Barthanes? Was it really just the gholam, as everyone seems to assume?
If so, it's a retcon explanation since I'm pretty sure RJ didn't come up with the gholam until LOC. Fain was always the obvious answer; the gholam theory was the search for another explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rand View Post
Also, assuming Rand wasn't hearing Trollocs hiding in the gardens behind Barthanes' house, who or what did he hear hiding back there?
Perhaps a guard with orders to watch.
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  #76  
Old 08-10-2014, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rand View Post
When Ingtar and co. meet Urien, he says Verin's agelessness reminds him of the Wise Ones. Is this just a mistake? WOs don't get that without the Oath Rod, right?
WOs who can channel live a lot longer than other Aiel, if they're not killed by one of the natural dangers of the Waste. Thus, a WO who looks as if she is 40 may indeed be 40, or she may be 140 (or even 240). Since the ordinary Aiel don't know which WOs can or can't channel, the only thing they do know about it is that you can't judge a WO's age based upon her looks.
Verin has the agelessness, which is a more obvious version of "you can't tell how old she is". So it reminds him of the WOs, but is also clearly not the same.

Quote:
Everyone's shocked that Fain can somehow control the Black Wind, despite the fact that Moiraine told them this in tEotW. Or they knew the Black Wind feared him, at least.
There is another implication of this, which has not really been touched upon, yet: that the BW is intelligent.
If I encounter a sparrow in a forest, then the sparrow would probably be somewhat afraid of me. But I could not use that fear to make it do things while I was away, because it would not understand my threats. The fact that the BW can be compelled in such a way shows that it is intelligent enough to be reasoned with, which means that it is a much more dangerous entity than it would have been if it had been a mindless horror.
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Old 08-11-2014, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
If so, it's a retcon explanation since I'm pretty sure RJ didn't come up with the gholam until LOC. Fain was always the obvious answer; the gholam theory was the search for another explanation.
Really? You mean I'm actually right about this? Awesome. Seriously though, I thought everyone just assumed it was the gholam...





The three Aiel Maidens in Tsofu are looking for Rand, right? Well, why don't they mention this when they see a guy "born of the Waste but raised in Randland" or whatever the prophecy was?

I brought up in the last post that the Black Wind could exit the Waygate in Cairhien while it couldn't back in Fal Dara. When Verin opens the one outside Tsofu, it doesn't appear to seep out this time either. Maybe it has to be Rand specifically who opens the Waygate for the BW to actually come out?

Can Fain still sense Mat and Perrin, or is it just Rand now? If he can still sense the others, why doesn't the Black Wind block Perrin from the Ways in tSR?

Verin seems to know a lot about Portal Stones. Is this just because she's Brown? And knowing about them is one thing, but how would she know about the one in the Waste (presumably the one outside Rhuidean)?

Verin also mentions that the Portal Stone on Toman Head is the only one she's visited (or the only one whose symbol she knows that she's also visited, at least). Is this significant? She mentions having trudged through the cold and snow of the Mountains of Mist and Almoth Plain to get there. Did she just randomly decide to go during the worst time possible several decades back? Or had she just visited it during the long winter we see in tEotW?

Ingtar seems very reluctant to go to Toman Head. Was he told to keep Rand away from there (and the Seanchan)? I'm guessing Ishamael would know about the prophecy saying Rand will proclaim himself there.

I find it funny that Verin bullies Rand into using the Portal Stone despite his protests of having no clue what he's doing, then she gets mad at him when he messes up.

Also (and I know I'm kind saying "Verin must have done it!" for everything, but whatever), is it possible Verin interfered with the Portal Stone, assuming she saw some sort of benefit in having it take them months to reach Toman Head?

When they're in the Ways, Egwene says that Moiraine mentioned the Black Wind can't be killed and only barely hurt. To which Liandrin replies, "If the Black Wind appears, I will deal with it. [...] Moiraine does not know as much as she thinks." Is she simply boasting, or lying since she's BA? Or does she really know how to harm or potentially kill the BW?

I know they mumble about it being "above" them, but do Renna and Alwhin and all of them seriously have no idea that Suroth is probably a DF for dealing with a marath'damane due to an even greater deal with a feared "master?" They overhear the whole conversation, including Liandrin telling Suroth to kill Seanchan patrols if necessary. I guess this stuff is kind of normal in the Seanchan culture, but still...

I forgot that a'dam are apparently still being created.
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Old 08-11-2014, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by rand View Post
The three Aiel Maidens in Tsofu are looking for Rand, right? Well, why don't they mention this when they see a guy "born of the Waste but raised in Randland" or whatever the prophecy was?
They see a Wetlander, not an Aiel. The sword probably didn't help, but the clothing was most likely enough to throw them off.

Quote:
Can Fain still sense Mat and Perrin, or is it just Rand now? If he can still sense the others, why doesn't the Black Wind block Perrin from the Ways in tSR?
Fain can still sense them, but he doesn't think of them all that much; he is almost completely focused on Rand. So that's all he thought of mentioning to the BW.

Quote:
Verin seems to know a lot about Portal Stones. Is this just because she's Brown? And knowing about them is one thing, but how would she know about the one in the Waste (presumably the one outside Rhuidean)?
The BA may have been mapping the Portal Stones in preparation for the Day of Return, and if so, Verin would've investigated this.

Quote:
Verin also mentions that the Portal Stone on Toman Head is the only one she's visited (or the only one whose symbol she knows that she's also visited, at least). Is this significant? She mentions having trudged through the cold and snow of the Mountains of Mist and Almoth Plain to get there. Did she just randomly decide to go during the worst time possible several decades back? Or had she just visited it during the long winter we see in tEotW?
I don't know when she had visited it. I do think the Pattern had tricked her into acquiring this knowledge.

Quote:
Also (and I know I'm kind saying "Verin must have done it!" for everything, but whatever), is it possible Verin interfered with the Portal Stone, assuming she saw some sort of benefit in having it take them months to reach Toman Head?
I seriously doubt Verin had that much experience with Portal Stones, especially ones operated by male channelers.

Quote:
When they're in the Ways, Egwene says that Moiraine mentioned the Black Wind can't be killed and only barely hurt. To which Liandrin replies, "If the Black Wind appears, I will deal with it. [...] Moiraine does not know as much as she thinks." Is she simply boasting, or lying since she's BA? Or does she really know how to harm or potentially kill the BW?
Liandrin may have planned to use the OP to tie them up and run away herself. That'd distract the BW a bit and let her get rid of the girls at the same time. Or perhaps there's some other explanation.
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Old 08-11-2014, 11:25 AM
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Really? You mean I'm actually right about this?
Well, assuming that the obvious answer is the correct one.

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
The three Aiel Maidens in Tsofu are looking for Rand, right? Well, why don't they mention this when they see a guy "born of the Waste but raised in Randland" or whatever the prophecy was?
They might not have actually been looking for Rand. Only some Aiel were sent to search for him, and Tsofu is close enough to the Waste that Aiel do come there fairly regularly looking for sung wood. Aside from that, the regular folk haven't all wrapped their heads around the prophecy like the clan chiefs and Wise Ones have, which is why Couladin was able to get away with pretending to be the Car'a'carn. These Maidens were distressed that he was wearing a sword, so they obviously had some notion that he was Aiel, but they might not have wanted to believe that he was the one.

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
Can Fain still sense Mat and Perrin, or is it just Rand now? If he can still sense the others, why doesn't the Black Wind block Perrin from the Ways in tSR?
Because it absorbed Fain's compulsions, and the main one is Rand. Fain says he can sense Perrin in the Two Rivers. He doesn't know whether it's Mat or Perrin; he only knows it's not Rand.

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Originally Posted by rand View Post
Verin seems to know a lot about Portal Stones. Is this just because she's Brown? And knowing about them is one thing, but how would she know about the one in the Waste (presumably the one outside Rhuidean)?
I think she explains all of that; she doesn't actually know a whole lot about them, but she studied them. She probably read about the Stone at Chaendar in the same book where Rand read about it.
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Old 08-11-2014, 12:54 PM
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Brandon was never very clear about where it was. There were two contradicting descriptions in the book - just north of Tar Valon, and near the border with Shienar. It can't be both, unless mapscale is really not your strong suit.
Its a fairly obvious mistake by Team Jordan too...given that the Amyrlin's ships had no issue traveling through that spot but we later learn that its a common fording spot...thus, it wouldn't be navigable for river ships that size.

Oopsy.
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