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  #1  
Old 04-06-2015, 02:44 PM
SomeOneElse SomeOneElse is offline
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Default The DO, his name and the True Power - theory

As we remember most people in the WoT world believed that naming the DO with his actual name could cause his attention and thus problems for the one who says it. We don't have a direct confirmation of that, but in most cases the DO was named there were some bad things happening shortly after that (there are only very few moments, I'm sure you could remember them and connection between naming and "bad things" is very questionable).
Of course we may think that was just something people believed, just like many believe that naming devil could cause you troubles. But maybe the strongest prove is that, when Ishy comes to see LTT and mentions that name even the mad guy says it is not a good idea to say it. So in 3rd age no one really knew the real deal about DO's name but in the AOL this question could probably be studied more deeply .
So let's assume naming the DO could cause some influence (at least when he is partially free). Then how is it achieved? Most probably, when some one names the DO there is some (relatively) small amount of the TP being unleashed that causes "bad things". It isn't controlled by some one incl. the DO, just like a bubble of evil but less destructive.
Now we should remember that darkfriends and forsaken (except Ishy) are not allowed to say DO's name at all. Now the question is why? Of course we don't know the true motivation of the DO, but it is very obvious that he wants to cause as much influence on the Pattern as he could. So probably ordering every darkfriend to run and say his name all day would be a good idea. But instead he deny them to ever say it. So the conclusion is that, when some one says the DO's name the DO himself is harmed somehow.
Now we should remind that, as Moggy stated, there were only 29 people who were allowed to touch the TP. During TG forsaken were allowed to use it but were very limited. So the next obvious conclusion that the DO as a source of TP isn't unlimited and even isn't any close to being unlimited like the source of the OP. I think this is very interesting as we maybe used to think the DO is something transcendental.
With that in mind our next question is what other limits has the DO (besides some known). And now we all could remember some points where we were thinking "why the hell is he (the DO) so stupid?" and then "Oh perhaps he planned it that way because he has more complex motivation then we think". But what if the DO is really that stupid? if his power is that limited, maybe his brain also is. Maybe he also doesn't store memories of past ages when he was opposing the Light. Maybe he even couldn't remember everything that goes in the current age?
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Old 04-07-2015, 03:53 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Perhaps the DO understands humans a bit better than you give him credit for.
Making something taboo is a good way to get people to do it now and then.
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  #3  
Old 04-07-2015, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Perhaps the DO understands humans a bit better than you give him credit for.
Making something taboo is a good way to get people to do it now and then.
But it didn't work that way, seems like it is a taboo for 99% people incl.darkfriends. We haven't seen any of them naming the DO so that was something rare at least. Also Lanfear says they are not allowed to say his name.
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Old 04-07-2015, 06:01 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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How do you mean"it didn't work that way"?
It seems to me that it works precisely in that way: because it is a taboo, people who want to seem daring say it now and then.

Lanfear may have been truthful, or she may have been unwilling to let the DO know what she was doing at that time. Saying his name is supposed to draw his attention, and Lanfear very often didn't want that.
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Old 04-07-2015, 10:52 AM
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It seems to me that it works precisely in that way: because it is a taboo, people who want to seem daring say it now and then.
And who in fact did that? Ishy, some one from two rivers and Rand when he thought the DO is dead. It really didn't work if it was planned that way.

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Lanfear may have been truthful, or she may have been unwilling to let the DO know what she was doing at that time. Saying his name is supposed to draw his attention, and Lanfear very often didn't want that.
Maybe, but what about all other forsaken and darkfriends? Even in their brains they don't name the DO as well as when talking to each other? Seems rather like no one really uses it.
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Old 04-07-2015, 11:02 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Maybe, but what about all other forsaken and darkfriends? Even in their brains they don't name the DO as well as when talking to each other? Seems rather like no one really uses it.
Yet everyone still knows it well enough to instantly recognise it. Which suggests that it is actually used often enough to be that recognizable.
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Old 04-07-2015, 01:14 PM
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Yet everyone still knows it well enough to instantly recognise it. Which suggests that it is actually used often enough to be that recognizable.
Not really that often. If you hear some word (if it is smth notable of course) you are likely to recognise it especially if it was the name of evil.

RJ's world, as every phantasy world, has some simplifications. For me that seems super strange that almost everyone was aware of things like The Wheel, the Pattern and even the DO and I'd say 90% believe these things although there is not anything like church and inquisition that burns every disbeliever. How come people knew about the pattern and the Wheel? I don't remember any one saying there is no Wheel or Pattern at all. If I was there I won't believe all that stuff I guess.
So the same goes with DO's name, everyone knew it just because.
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Old 04-07-2015, 09:25 PM
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Keep in mind how annoying to is to have someone yelling your name at you randomly all day. I'd throw some evil at people who did that to me...

Add to that the fact he is outside time and therefore technically could be said to hear all the namings at once.

Can the DO be distracted? Is that in his nature?
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Old 04-08-2015, 03:58 AM
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How come people knew about the pattern and the Wheel? I don't remember any one saying there is no Wheel or Pattern at all. If I was there I won't believe all that stuff I guess.
Well, as to that, you have to remember that the OP is either considered a result of the turning of the Wheel, or the driving force (can't remember which, and don't want to bother looking it up). Denying the existence of the OP isn't really a good survival strategy, and, unless you have good reason to doubt them, it would seem sensible to believe what the experts on the subject (ie. the Aes Sedai) tell you. Now, the AS may be rather vague about a lot of things where you would want them to be more honest, but they do say "the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills" a lot (and so do other people).

Thus, it seems that you wouldn't have any more reason to deny the Wheel there than you have to deny the strong and weak nuclear force in our own world.
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:23 AM
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Well, as to that, you have to remember that the OP is either considered a result of the turning of the Wheel, or the driving force (can't remember which, and don't want to bother looking it up). Denying the existence of the OP isn't really a good survival strategy, and, unless you have good reason to doubt them, it would seem sensible to believe what the experts on the subject (ie. the Aes Sedai) tell you. Now, the AS may be rather vague about a lot of things where you would want them to be more honest, but they do say "the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills" a lot (and so do other people).

Thus, it seems that you wouldn't have any more reason to deny the Wheel there than you have to deny the strong and weak nuclear force in our own world.
I don't think that is correct. Most people had no idea about the OP and how it works at all. And even if they didn't deny the OP I don't see why would they automatically believe everything AS say? Just because they are able (or claim to be able) to control the OP? Makes no sense. Maybe because I am an atheist though.

Plus even WCs didn't really try to deny existence of the wheel or the DO.

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Old 04-08-2015, 09:31 AM
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I don't think that is correct. Most people had no idea about the OP and how it works at all. And even if they didn't deny the OP I don't see why would they automatically believe everything AS say? Just because they are able (or claim to be able) to control the OP? Makes no sense. Maybe because I am an atheist though.

Plus even WCs didn't really try to deny existence of the wheel or the DO.
People may not trust Aes Sedai, and may be pre-disposed to look carefully at ways in which they might be twisting the truth to suit their purposes, but even hicks like the Two Rivers folk were aware of the Oaths, and of the First Oath in particular. As for your doubts about the whether Gonzo was correct, well here is a quote from Robert Jordan.

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"The biggest single political power in their world is the great city of Tar Valon, home to the White Tower, which is the headquarters of the Aes Sedai, women who can tap into the power that drives the universe and turns the Wheel of Time, the One Power."
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Old 04-08-2015, 11:40 AM
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People may not trust Aes Sedai, and may be pre-disposed to look carefully at ways in which they might be twisting the truth to suit their purposes, but even hicks like the Two Rivers folk were aware of the Oaths, and of the First Oath in particular.
And that again is out of any logic. Have any of them seen how AS are doing these 3 Oaths? Even if they saw that theramony it won't really allow them to be sure if that works but I'm sure that no one except AS ever knew if they really do 3 Oaths at all. Of course if people believe they're bounded by the Oaths, they have to believe what AS say, but how about the initial bit where people should just believe that they are bounded by 3-Os and the O-s are still the same, and it works the way they expect?
And, while there is no prove for 3-O thing anything AS say must be put under question by any one who has any logic.

And the conclusion of this in case some one didn't realize is that everyone automatically accepting stuff like the Wheel, Pattern, 3-Os as a fact with almost no question is just a simplification. This is to make the plot free of things like guys who don't believe and thus from religious wars. Probably it is the same with DO's name: everyone knew it just because it's easier then some people asking who the f is that Shai'tan at all.

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Old 04-09-2015, 03:58 AM
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So RJ made up a world in which people were unreasonable smart and possessed of unnatural amounts of common sense, just to avoid having to add another twelve books to the series to deal with utterly irrelevant complications caused by idiots questioning basic science.

It might have been nice if RJ would have gotten rid of real world Creationists and Climate Change deniers simply by deciding that no one could be that stupid, but for some reason he didn't bother.
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