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  #101  
Old 12-30-2015, 02:27 PM
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Enjoyable and visually appealing. That is how I would describe Star Wars, but it had so many plot holes and "just believe" moments that it is not a good film, even if it is a good Star Wars film. I feel like the fans were looking for any excuse to be happy with this film and overlooked too many problems with the film.
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  #102  
Old 12-30-2015, 02:57 PM
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Enjoyable and visually appealing. That is how I would describe Star Wars, but it had so many plot holes and "just believe" moments that it is not a good film, even if it is a good Star Wars film. I feel like the fans were looking for any excuse to be happy with this film and overlooked too many problems with the film.
It's not anything like the prequel trilogy. That's all the reason any movie fan has for liking this one.
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  #103  
Old 12-30-2015, 03:31 PM
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Correct.

One of the main things a Mary sue has is other characters commenting on how good they are.

There is literally a scene in the movie where finn says "Wow, that is some pilot" about poe after stopping in the middle of a battle to watch him hot dogging. Not a single Mary sue aimed at him.
But it's not like Poe was good at anything else. He got captured, spilled the beans on BB-8, and couldn't even pull off a somewhat competent crash landing (or at least stay conscious long enough to punch out). Rey's handling of the Falcon was more impressive (and we actually saw it). Compare that to Harry Potter, a spoiled little shit that is loved by everyone. Or characters bending over backwards to praise Egwene (like the God-awful Honey in the Tea chapter). Or worse, KJA's Duncan Idaho who is apparently so fucking cool the bad guys just surrender.

If an author has a favorite character, he or she has to be careful not to let that seep into the story. It's very jarring as a reader when they don't share the author's affection, and clumsy attempts to hold a character up break up the immersion.

That being said, I had to google Mary Sue to understand what the accusation was. Whether that means they are exceptionally rare or that I just have non asshole friends, I don't know. IMO, a Creator's Pet is way worse and far more common. Even Egwene isn't a Mary Sue, her abilities and talents and knowledge are well explained in-universe (aside from the Brandonism of super-competent spies and researchers offscreen that, aside from discovering things that seem like they should be unknowable to them, also could have drastically changed the plot had they appeared earlier). But her talents simply aren't displayed to be broad enough to make her eligible to be a Mary Sue. Most are simply alleged by other characters, and even the most egregious offenders of 'show, don't tell' clearly don't think she walks on water.
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  #104  
Old 12-30-2015, 03:43 PM
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Consider Aragorn. He's pushing at being a Mary Sue, and is clearly one of Tolkien's favorites. The fact that he's lived almost a hundred years, studied with the High Elves, and has Numenorean blood might explain most of his abilities. But only if you really understand and buy into the universe. However his effect on almost all other characters can only be accepted if you share Tolkien's affection for the character.
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  #105  
Old 12-30-2015, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Res_Ipsa View Post
Enjoyable and visually appealing. That is how I would describe Star Wars, but it had so many plot holes and "just believe" moments that it is not a good film, even if it is a good Star Wars film. I feel like the fans were looking for any excuse to be happy with this film and overlooked too many problems with the film.
I know the film had problems, but none of then seemed related to any character. IMO the only real issues were in the (mostly recycled) plot, and unnecessary scenes like the one with those...pirates? (Idk what they were) who were eaten by monsters.

The characters were all solid. Even the droid was great (loved the thumbs up scene), and C3PO was always a weak point in the OT.
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  #106  
Old 12-30-2015, 04:20 PM
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If an author has a favorite character, he or she has to be careful not to let that seep into the story. It's very jarring as a reader when they don't share the author's affection, and clumsy attempts to hold a character up break up the immersion.

That being said, I had to google Mary Sue to understand what the accusation was. Whether that means they are exceptionally rare or that I just have non asshole friends, I don't know. IMO, a Creator's Pet is way worse and far more common.
Creator's Pet is a much better term- gender neutral. Of course the biggest beef with the "Mary Sue" concept is the automatic gender assignment. Creator's Pet describes the situation with these annoying characters in an unbiased (aka non-sexist) way.

Btw- the worst moment in the movie for me, the moment when my disbelief could not be suspended, was the scene in which Captain Phasma just turns off the shield with no fight, no tricks, no effort at resistance. So lame. That really is the only scene that made me groan inwardly. I enjoyed the rest immensely.
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  #107  
Old 12-30-2015, 05:42 PM
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Yeah, I forgot about that scene. It was pretty bad in retrospect, although when I first saw it I thought she would alert General Hux or just turn them back on when Finn and Han left. And the Resistance would be stuck wth the mere handful of ships that made it through the window.

Two things about Finn that bugged me:
He won't kill for the First Order, but apparently has no problem killing, as long as it's members of the First Order. Seriously, he starts killing right away, even knowing that they are all basically brainwashed child soldiers.

And the fact that he lied about knowing how to turn off the shield just so he could get a ride to Starkiller Base and 'save' Rey struck me as incredibly selfish. Did he even intend to go through with it at first? Would he have put it off until after saving Rey if Han didn't call him out? Even a slight delay would have meant the complete destruction of the Resistance base (and possibly the whole movement).

And more general complaints with the plot: it's easy to write about heroes who have the flexibility of being the opposition. Not having the Republic play a larger role seems kind of like cheating, or lazy. It's hard to govern. The GOP and the SW writers know playing opposition is easy.

And it would have been nice to know something about the balance of power. Is the First Order a fascist separatist element of the Republic? Or is it more or less the Empire minus a handful of systems that won their freedom?
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  #108  
Old 12-31-2015, 09:26 PM
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Did anyone see the Lucas interview with Charlie Rose? It's almost heartbreakingly baffling. He really doesn't seem to get why some of his movies were considered good and some bad. Like, at all. He criticizes the new movie for being 'retro' and hilariously called Disney 'white slavers'.

But then he says that it's a story about family, not about spaceships (as if that is a mark against Disney) then goes on to contradict himself by saying that he worked hard to make each movie 'different', by which he means they had different planets and different spaceships in each one. Because that's what makes the story different. Apparently.

I'm sure that it's just a coincidence that each new spaceship was another 10 million in toy revenue for him.
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  #109  
Old 12-31-2015, 11:23 PM
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I'm convinced by this point that if it wasn't for the production stuff the original trilogy would have looked much like the prequels and have been barely remembered by history. Credit where credit is due, he created the setting, but he needed a lot of help to make it into the story that it became.
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  #110  
Old 01-01-2016, 01:16 AM
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Not sure if it's true or not, but I've heard his (former) wife really reined him in from adding a bunch of stupid stuff to the original trilogy. Then when they got divorced Lucas purposely included a lot of that crap in the prequels to spite her. So we really have Lucas's first(?) wife to thank for having the original trilogy as it is.

And going with my question as to whether or not Disney could release the originals in their original form, I wonder if they'd ever considered remaking the prequel trilogy? I mean, it's too soon now, and it would be a slap in the face to Lucas, but maybe decades from now...who knows. There's a good story there, buried under all the layers of trade negotiations and gungans stepping in poop.
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  #111  
Old 01-01-2016, 04:40 PM
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Not sure if it's true or not, but I've heard his (former) wife really reined him in from adding a bunch of stupid stuff to the original trilogy. Then when they got divorced Lucas purposely included a lot of that crap in the prequels to spite her. So we really have Lucas's first(?) wife to thank for having the original trilogy as it is.

And going with my question as to whether or not Disney could release the originals in their original form, I wonder if they'd ever considered remaking the prequel trilogy? I mean, it's too soon now, and it would be a slap in the face to Lucas, but maybe decades from now...who knows. There's a good story there, buried under all the layers of trade negotiations and gungans stepping in poop.
And look how well that turned out.

They cannot remake Star Wars until Lucas is dead...and even then, now that they own it, I'm not sure that they can.
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  #112  
Old 01-05-2016, 06:10 AM
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I haven't read all posts so I may repeat some things here.

Concerning Rey and Finn vs Kylo.
Kylo had just taken a direct hit in the chest from Chewie's weapon which would have slowed him down. We see that these Stormtroopers have some melee abilities when Finn faces the Stormtrooper earlier and many Think that Rey had some Jedi training Before being left on Jakku and the force and some of her training returned to her. She also had some Close combat encounters on Jakku vs thugs of various kind.

Concerning the Death of Han.
I think they waisted an opportunity there. They should have built a Little on their relationship earlier, perhaps had a scene earlier between father and son. That would have given the Death scene more impact.

Concerning Phasma.
I hated how underused she was. If they just had changed the noname stormtrooper with Phasma in the Close combat encounter with Finn that would have solved many issues concerning that.
I also think she caved to easily when lowering the shield.

Concerning rey.
She's probably a grad daughter of Vader, whether she's a Skywalker or a Solo (organa) linage is unsure. The reason for her being that is because that SW is a big soap opera in space. I hope that she is completely unrelated to any of the known characters because I want this huge galaxy to be huge and not only center on a few people. Let the universe grow a bit.

Concerning Poe.
I think he plays the role in the story that Denis Lawson (Wedge) would have played Before he backed out of being in the Movies.

Concerning giant weapons and capital Worlds.
The new republic moves between a few systems so that they seem to be representing all the people. I think the system that was targeted was the Hussian system where the republic was gathered.

I liked a lot about the Movie.

What I didn't like was.
-The rushed way that they went from info to action on destroying the base/weapon. No analysing the situation, a solution was just there at once.
-The gangs and CGI monsters on the freighter in the beginning. It was just all wrong.
-Phasma and how they squandered that character. (hopefully she'll be back for 8 to redeem herself)
-The lack of explaining what was happening with the new republic and thing associated with that.
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  #113  
Old 01-05-2016, 06:06 PM
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I haven't read all posts so I may repeat some things here.

Concerning Rey and Finn vs Kylo.
Kylo had just taken a direct hit in the chest from Chewie's weapon which would have slowed him down. We see that these Stormtroopers have some melee abilities when Finn faces the Stormtrooper earlier and many Think that Rey had some Jedi training Before being left on Jakku and the force and some of her training returned to her. She also had some Close combat encounters on Jakku vs thugs of various kind.
finn has his ass absolutely handed to him in the fight with ren. He gets one lucky blow.

Rey is also getting beaten. Then ren points out to her that he could train her in the ways of the force (I note he says force and NOT dark side) and she then meditates a second and proceeds to force him back. Using angry, powerful blows. She is clearly very powerful force user- much stronger than ren. And I think snoke knows this.
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