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  #101  
Old 02-14-2016, 01:55 AM
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Lost amongst today's excitement, Erdogan has not taken long to prove why he is little better than ISIS...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35571663

Quote:
Turkey has shelled a Kurdish militia in northern Syria and demanded it retreat from territory it has seized, Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said.
The US urged Turkey to stop the shelling and focus on fighting the group Islamic State (IS).
Meanwhile Turkey's foreign minister said Turkey was mulling a ground invasion of Syria with Saudi forces.
On Thursday world powers agreed to push for a cessation of hostilities in Syria within a week.
Among the targets shelled by Turkey was the Menagh airbase, which was seized on Thursday from Syrian Islamist rebels by a Kurdish militia group known as the YPG.
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  #102  
Old 02-15-2016, 02:20 PM
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Maybe Southpaw ought to read this. And it's in a nice, grade-school level, list format.

America has a reputation for audacity in a crisis, at least since we saw how badly the alternatives would turn out. It's time we backed it up, or we risk losing it. And 80 grand a year ain't bad.
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  #103  
Old 05-18-2016, 04:58 AM
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I don't feel like starting a new thread so I'll just resurrect this one. Much to almost no-one's surprise, there are problems with relocating the refugees from Greece and Italy. However, the anecdotal evidence of "I heard of this one guy...", now the numbers are speaking clearly. A large number of the refugees refuse their refuge if it's not in UK or Germany. linky

Quote:
Originally Posted by Financial Times


Refugees in Greece refuse to relocate across EU

Duncan Robinson in Brussels and Kerin Hope in Athens


One in seven asylum seekers in the EU’s flagship scheme to relocate refugees throughout the bloc has either refused to be moved or “absconded”, according to figures provided by the Greek government.

The policy, agreed last year after considerable acrimony, was designed to spread more evenly the EU’s refugee burden by relocating 160,000 asylum seekers from frontline states Greece and Italy to other members of the bloc.

But it is being challenged by many asylum seekers’ refusal to go to poorer member states, such as Bulgaria and Romania.


Of the 1,324 people processed as part of the relocation scheme so far, 191 have dropped out or simply disappeared, say Greek officials.

As of last week, Bulgaria had agreed to accept 47 asylum seekers from Greece. But when they were told they were being sent there, 36 withdrew from the programme while another seven “absconded”, according to the Greek government. In the end, only four were moved.

The situation was similar in Romania, where 32 of the 67 asylum seekers destined to be sent there disappeared or quit the relocation programme. In the case of Estonia, eight out of 27 people absconded rather than be sent to the Baltic state.


Even those being sent to rich, diverse countries such as France have opted out of the scheme. Out of 388 asylum seekers due to be sent to France from Greece, 24 absconded while two others dropped out.

Fotini Rantsiou, a former UN staffer working as a consultant on refugee issues, blamed the high dropout rate on asylum seekers’ fears that they will be allocated a country far removed from friends and family.

“As the process drags on, some people get discouraged,” said Ms Rantsiou. “They feel they won’t get to where their relatives are, so they drop out altogether.”

Anastasia Mavrou, a social worker and volunteer at a tent camp near Athens, said it was common for officials to lose track of asylum seekers. “There’s a lot of mobility among the refugees,” she said. “They switch addresses and mobile phone numbers quite often so can’t be reached by the asylum agency.”

Greek and European officials face a backlog of 46,000 asylum seekers and migrants who are stuck on the country’s mainland. Macedonia shut its border with Greece earlier this spring, leaving tens of thousands stranded in worsening conditions within the country.

Although Greek officials had put forward 3,126 for relocation, other EU countries that signed off the deal had agreed to accept just 1,791 as of last week.

“Even in the best of circumstances — manageable flows, low political salience, time for governments to prepare, pilot and adjust — relocation would still perhaps take years to develop as a viable means of distribution,” said Elizabeth Collett, director of the Migration Policy Institute Europe.

“Implemented on the hoof in the midst of political battle, with limited, diverted attention from the Greek government, and unprepared recipient states, these low numbers are disappointing but not particularly surprising.”

The sealed land border and the sluggish progress on relocation has led to a brewing humanitarian crisis in the country.

Despite the Greek government agreeing, in conjunction with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, to set up accommodation for 50,000 refugees by the end of 2015, Greece is still suffering from a shortfall in accommodation. At the moment, the country has shelter for barely 35,000 migrants on its mainland.
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  #104  
Old 05-19-2016, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Maybe Southpaw ought to read this. And it's in a nice, grade-school level, list format.

America has a reputation for audacity in a crisis, at least since we saw how badly the alternatives would turn out. It's time we backed it up, or we risk losing it. And 80 grand a year ain't bad.
Yeah that's hilarious, asshole. Wanna continue to preach at me about the greatness of the Iran deal as well? Another one of the lies you sheep believed from this bullshit administration. Socialist fuck.
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  #105  
Old 05-19-2016, 08:15 PM
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Yeah that's hilarious, asshole. Wanna continue to preach at me about the greatness of the Iran deal as well? Another one of the lies you sheep believed from this bullshit administration. Socialist fuck.
Iran is useful, and is far more similar to us culturally than many of the nations in the Middle East with whom we are currently at least nominally allied. Unfortunately, their neighbor, Turkey, another "ally" has gotten progressively scarier under Erdogan's direction. Erdogan is also a bit more topical to this problem, as he is the one who controls (controls is a bit too strong of a definition, but he at least has more sway here than anyone else) much of the movement of these refugees, and he recently fired his PM for trying to stop Erdogan from declaring himself essentially Sultan, and is planning to push through a "terrorism" bill that will allow him to arrest and execute all the Kurdish MPs in his Parliament, or anyone else who stands between him and absolute monarchy. Yet, he is still also a NATO member, and is holding Europe hostage due to the refugee crisis. Iran isn't the problem. Turkey is.
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  #106  
Old 05-20-2016, 02:19 AM
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Iran is useful, and is far more similar to us culturally than many of the nations in the Middle East with whom we are currently at least nominally allied. Unfortunately, their neighbor, Turkey, another "ally" has gotten progressively scarier under Erdogan's direction. Erdogan is also a bit more topical to this problem, as he is the one who controls (controls is a bit too strong of a definition, but he at least has more sway here than anyone else) much of the movement of these refugees, and he recently fired his PM for trying to stop Erdogan from declaring himself essentially Sultan, and is planning to push through a "terrorism" bill that will allow him to arrest and execute all the Kurdish MPs in his Parliament, or anyone else who stands between him and absolute monarchy. Yet, he is still also a NATO member, and is holding Europe hostage due to the refugee crisis. Iran isn't the problem. Turkey is.
precisely.

You know, I was thinking today, those Syrian refugees who don't want to move to Eastern European countries: I kind of understand *them* - it's much too close to an already aggressive Russia. EU or no EU, if you come from a conflict zone where Russian forces have done at least half the damage, you don't want to be settled next to Russia again. It's not necessarily the most rational response, but it's a very understandable one. On the other hand, those Syrians who do decide to go to, say, the Baltic states or Finland or Poland, they'd probably be more of a security asset than potential danger. Nothing unites better than a common enemy, after all. Now, the rest of them (Iranian, Tunisian, etc) refugees I have no sympathy for refusing to move to the poorer countries.
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  #107  
Old 05-20-2016, 03:33 AM
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Yeah that's hilarious, asshole. Wanna continue to preach at me about the greatness of the Iran deal as well? Another one of the lies you sheep believed from this bullshit administration. Socialist fuck.
Now was this reply really three months worth of thought?
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  #108  
Old 05-20-2016, 04:52 PM
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Erdogan passed his "terrorism" bill today.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36344314

Quote:
The Turkish parliament has approved a controversial bill that will strip MPs of their immunity from prosecution.
Pro-Kurdish lawmakers say this is essentially a move to expel opposition members from parliament.
Quote:
If several HDP MPs are arrested, there are fears it could spark worse violence in Kurdish areas, where people could feel deprived of a voice in parliament. And so this is a dangerous moment for Turkey and a test of how far Mr Erdogan is willing to go to secure his position.

The bill was backed by 376 MPs in the 550-seat legislature in the third and final vote of a secret ballot.
This means it will become law directly without being put to a referendum. It now needs to be ratified by the president.
Some 138 lawmakers, the vast majority from the two opposition parties, could be at risk of prosecution.
Violent scuffles marred parliamentary debates this month, with frustrated lawmakers exchanging fisticuffs and kicks.
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  #109  
Old 05-21-2016, 03:44 AM
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If some of those opposition lawmakers manage to make to an EU country and ask for asylum while Erdogan asks for their extradition, what will the EU do?

Law and order may sound like a good idea to many, but it leaves out the details of which law and who is giving the orders.
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  #110  
Old 05-24-2016, 05:17 PM
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36373973

The carrot does not work with Erdogan. It may be time for the stick. We should threaten to expel Turkey from NATO.

This, frankly, should have been done over a year ago. He was clearly responsible for the terrorist attack on the Kurds at Suruc last summer that caused this intended internal strife, and he has also quite clearly been supportive of not only the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria, but also of ISIS, if only in so much as he prefers them to any success by Assad or the Kurds. We should have tried to make use of Putin's brief direct intervention in Syria to try to mend relations with him, and to threaten issuing sanctions against Turkey unless Erdogan stopped attacking the Kurds.

Last edited by Kimon; 05-24-2016 at 05:28 PM.
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  #111  
Old 05-25-2016, 04:08 AM
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Using common sense in international politics?
I'm sure that wouldn't work, though at the moment I can't quite think of why not.
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  #112  
Old 05-25-2016, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Using common sense in international politics?
I'm sure that wouldn't work, though at the moment I can't quite think of why not.
Realpolitik leads to giving Nobel peace prizes to people like Kissinger.

On the other hand, being led by moral or ideological values leads to things like the War on Terror.

there really is no right answer, I'm afraid.

Kimon, I must say, I haven't read the NATO paperwork fully but is there any provision for kicking a member out? and if so, what would qualify? Clearly, it's not the 2% rule, seeing as only 3 countries consistently follow that one.
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  #113  
Old 05-25-2016, 09:53 AM
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Kimon, I must say, I haven't read the NATO paperwork fully but is there any provision for kicking a member out? and if so, what would qualify? Clearly, it's not the 2% rule, seeing as only 3 countries consistently follow that one.
No. The closest this ever came to happening in the past was when Turkey attacked Cyprus, which caused the Greeks (who viewed it as an attack on Greece) to briefly leave the alliance. They eventually rejoined, but no one has ever been expelled from the alliance. There's not really any provision as far as I'm aware that requires member states to be democratic, even if the alliance was at least tacitly created for the purpose of defending democracy against the encroach of communism. Erdogan's Turkey is however the only autocratic state, and the only Muslim state. When Turkey was more democratic, and more Western/European oriented it seemed an apt member of the alliance, even if it always was a bit of an outlier, and the greatest source of friction. But now? Erdogan is a despotic butcher. Having him in the alliance is an embarrassment.
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  #114  
Old 05-25-2016, 10:40 AM
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No. The closest this ever came to happening in the past was when Turkey attacked Cyprus, which caused the Greeks (who viewed it as an attack on Greece) to briefly leave the alliance.
Which, I have to say, was a fairly stupid move by the Greeks. They could have called for help from the other NATO countries instead of walking away from all possible help.
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  #115  
Old 05-25-2016, 11:44 AM
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Which, I have to say, was a fairly stupid move by the Greeks. They could have called for help from the other NATO countries instead of walking away from all possible help.
Both Greece and Turkey were already NATO members in 1974 when Cyprus descended into civil war, and neither side was exactly in the right. The Greek Cypriots were more responsible for starting it, as they initiated essentially a coup d'etat, and then the Turk Cypriots convinced Turkey to intervene to stop the coup. Greece was irate, but NATO couldn't really do anything, but the Greeks were pissed enough (mainly because the Turks expelled most of the majority Greek Cypriot population from Northern Cyprus when they seized the northern part of the island in their invasion), that they withdrew from NATO, and didn't rejoin until 1980, but what else could they do? Ask the rest of NATO to declare war on NATO-member Turkey? That clearly couldn't happen. More should have been done for the Greek Cypriots though.

Erdogan could, I suppose, by viewed as in violation of Article 2 of the North Atlantic Treaty.

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Nor...eaty#Article_5

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The Parties will contribute toward the further development of peaceful and friendly international relations by strengthening their free institutions, by bringing about a better understanding of the principles upon which these institutions are founded, and by promoting conditions of stability and well-being. They will seek to eliminate conflict in their international economic policies and will encourage economic collaboration between any or all of them.
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  #116  
Old 05-25-2016, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
Realpolitik leads to giving Nobel peace prizes to people like Kissinger.

On the other hand, being led by moral or ideological values leads to things like the War on Terror.

there really is no right answer, I'm afraid.

Kimon, I must say, I haven't read the NATO paperwork fully but is there any provision for kicking a member out? and if so, what would qualify? Clearly, it's not the 2% rule, seeing as only 3 countries consistently follow that one.
Kissenger was great at making peace...dead people dont tend to fight back too well.
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Old 05-25-2016, 12:28 PM
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Both Greece and Turkey were already NATO members in 1974 when Cyprus descended into civil war, and neither side was exactly in the right. The Greek Cypriots were more responsible for starting it, as they initiated essentially a coup d'etat, and then the Turk Cypriots convinced Turkey to intervene to stop the coup. Greece was irate, but NATO couldn't really do anything, but the Greeks were pissed enough (mainly because the Turks expelled most of the majority Greek Cypriot population from Northern Cyprus when they seized the northern part of the island in their invasion), that they withdrew from NATO, and didn't rejoin until 1980, but what else could they do? Ask the rest of NATO to declare war on NATO-member Turkey? That clearly couldn't happen. More should have been done for the Greek Cypriots though.

Erdogan could, I suppose, by viewed as in violation of Article 2 of the North Atlantic Treaty.

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Nor...eaty#Article_5
Greece didn't technically leave NATO, they just left the integrated NATO military infrastructure. They did the same thing that France did when de Gaulle took them out of in the 60s.


Speaking of Greece, if we allowed a military dictatorship to run Greece while they were in NATO and some other questionable governments from other countries (Italy's approximate 5,404 different gov't in the past 50 years come to mind), its hard to kick Erdogan out at this point...and if we were to do so, it would probably open the door to a Turkish/Russian alliance. Do we really want that sort of relationship? Using a stick similar to what was used back then (economic sanctions and a ban on weapons sales to Turkey) could work as well. Better to keep the Turks close than push them down a path to either further Islamic extremism or a closer relationship with Russia.
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  #118  
Old 05-25-2016, 01:03 PM
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it would probably open the door to a Turkish/Russian alliance. Do we really want that sort of relationship? Using a stick similar to what was used back then (economic sanctions and a ban on weapons sales to Turkey) could work as well. Better to keep the Turks close than push them down a path to either further Islamic extremism or a closer relationship with Russia.
Prior to their recent hostilities during the Syrian Civil War I would have worried more over that as well, but now? Turkey came pretty close to trying to use Article 5 of the treaty to push for united action against Russia. Assad might preclude any aligning between Erdogan and Russia. I'd worry about pushing him more openly into alliance with ISIS, perhaps with delusions of grandeur of eventually becoming caliph of a reasserted Ottoman Empire. Regardless, it certainly feels like something new should be tried, and I'll feel far more comfortable with that something being tried by Obama and Kerry than by Trump.
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Old 05-28-2016, 09:13 PM
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36407388

When you call your group Cake for Misanthropes it does seem somewhat inevitable that your members would be dicks.
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