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  #21  
Old 06-07-2016, 02:54 PM
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  #22  
Old 06-07-2016, 02:56 PM
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To be honest I think it's way too similar to communism - based on the idea that people will kind of ignore the fact that they don't HAVE to work in order to get by.
I dunno if it's fair to say that it's based on that premise. It's more based on the premise that most people won't be content with just the basics. They'll work for better food, a nicer house, nicer clothes, a better car, fancier gadgets, Netflix, HBO, and awaycations. Those who would be content with the basics would help bring balance to a job market that heavily favors employers.

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I can see why some might find this more fair than simply helping those in need but to be honest I think it will breed a lot more resentment when people with giant incomes still get the basic income.
In the case of truly giant incomes it just amounts to a tax credit, really. It's all in the framing.
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  #23  
Old 06-07-2016, 03:04 PM
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I dunno if it's fair to say that it's based on that premise. It's more based on the premise that most people won't be content with just the basics. They'll work for better food, a nicer house, nicer clothes, a better car, fancier gadgets, Netflix, HBO, and awaycations. Those who would be content with the basics would help bring balance to a job market that heavily favors employers.
In the US, at least, welfare statistics do seem to imply that this assumption is accurate...in that there aren't a ton of "generational welfare folks sitting at home living off the dole and not working". This is probably because the vast majority of people on welfare in the US reside in a home with at least 1 adult working full time. And there are pretty strict caps on how long and how much support you can get on welfare (due to Clinton's reforms in the 1990s). Though that would depend on what you classify as "welfare" too. I mean, technically my home ownership tax credit could be construed as "public assistance" I guess. I mean, its money coming from the gov't essentially...in the form of lower taxes and more take home pay for my family. Most forms of gov't assistance aren't pure cash or breadlines/free gov't cheese after all.

For the most part, people do tend to want nicer things than they have...humans being inherently greedy selfish creatures on some levels...so I doubt a basic income would destroy any drive towards acquiring more things. It might, however, allow more creativity in career choices and balance out the wealth inequality we are currently seeing in the United States (and I assume in Switzerland too given this proposal). Clearly, the current ideas aren't really working so something else has to be done to fix it.

That said, I really dont know about basic income...on paper, it seems like something that has to happen eventually in a post-industrial and highly automated economy. The other option is to create "make work" jobs and that doesnt really seem much better.
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  #24  
Old 06-07-2016, 03:04 PM
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I dunno if it's fair to say that it's based on that premise. It's more based on the premise that most people won't be content with just the basics. They'll work for better food, a nicer house, nicer clothes, a better car, fancier gadgets, Netflix, HBO, and awaycations. Those who would be content with the basics would help bring balance to a job market that heavily favors employers.


In the case of truly giant incomes it just amounts to a tax credit, really. It's all in the framing.
I agree.

Also the preliminary results from pilot projects indicate that it frees people up to be a little more adventurous in entrepreneurial activities, stimulating the economy and increasing innovation.

It is also intended to replace other social safety nets- so it theoretically will save the government a lot of administrative costs. But it also means that this amount is not really going to cut it as a long term life plan, unless you want to live as absolutely basic as possible, and in a Northern climate where solid shelter and heat are a necessity that would mean very basic indeed.

I am keenly interested in the results of this 2 year study.
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  #25  
Old 06-07-2016, 03:08 PM
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Also the preliminary results from pilot projects indicate that it frees people up to be a little more adventurous in entrepreneurial activities, stimulating the economy and increasing innovation.
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It might, however, allow more creativity in career choices
LOL...yup.
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  #26  
Old 06-07-2016, 05:10 PM
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and



LOL...yup.
Haha. We basically responded at the same time. Must be a mind connection. I think mine was more eloquent though...
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  #27  
Old 06-08-2016, 04:15 AM
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That said, I really dont know about basic income...on paper, it seems like something that has to happen eventually in a post-industrial and highly automated economy. The other option is to create "make work" jobs and that doesnt really seem much better.
This is IMO the best argument for Basic Income. We (the world) wont have a choice. So why not be ahead of the curve for once instead of waiting for unemployment rates to skyrocket because robots take over all the jobs?

Like that factory in China that was automated not long ago. 60 000 jobs gone overnight.
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  #28  
Old 06-08-2016, 04:16 AM
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Haha. We basically responded at the same time. Must be a mind connection. I think mine was more eloquent though...
Yours definitely showed more creativity, but Dav's version was more entrepreneurial in that it was more cost effective. So it seems that you read each others's minds while ignoring what you yourself were thinking.
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  #29  
Old 06-08-2016, 07:50 AM
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Haha. We basically responded at the same time. Must be a mind connection. I think mine was more eloquent though...
Most definitely more eloquent.
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  #30  
Old 06-09-2016, 02:02 AM
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DaiShan Lives!!!!
of course he does, did ya think I got knocked up by a ghost?

as for Finland, it's difficult to say as I'm so far away now; the news I see isn't really encouraging really - ever since Nokia went the way of the dodo the country has been somewhat struggling with finding the next growth generator. This sort of an idea might have merit IF the society where it's implemented can actually sustain it on a long term basis. Also, Dai is right in that simply handing people money for doing the same as everybody else in practice results in people doing nothing or as little as possible to still get the money.
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