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  #81  
Old 07-05-2016, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
Naz, you're bored. you're again making an argument out of thin air. So, once AGAIN: I DELIBERATELY did not get into that bit of the cesspool. Trust me, I know what propaganda is and what it does and just how easy it is to fall into it. I was born in the fricking USSR, after all. "bladibladibla but Critical Thinking!" is not nor has it ever been something that I dispute so stop trying to argue against something that doesn't exist.

literacy > illiteracy; that is all.
Actually I'm thinking of the western propaganda more than the USSR. But now you are simply assigning value to literacy without actually wondering why it has it. That value is conditional and those conditions are usually met but not by default.
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  #82  
Old 07-05-2016, 03:06 AM
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Actually I'm thinking of the western propaganda more than the USSR. But now you are simply assigning value to literacy without actually wondering why it has it. That value is conditional and those conditions are usually met but not by default.
no I'm not. Or perhaps you're deliberately misunderstanding. There is no absolute value to literacy, much as a point in infinite vacuum is meaningless. However, in relation to illiteracy, literacy receives a value - better than. By a factor of what or margin of how much doesn't matter for my argument, nor do any consequences of the use of literacy.
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  #83  
Old 07-05-2016, 03:16 AM
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Actually I'm thinking of the western propaganda more than the USSR. But now you are simply assigning value to literacy without actually wondering why it has it. That value is conditional and those conditions are usually met but not by default.
Literacy allows one to add sources to ones knowledge that otherwise would not have been available. That means that, no matter what, it broadens the horizon. True, that may simply give room for more propaganda, but even then it allows for more chance for contradictions in that propaganda. This, in turn, increases the chance that someone thinks about things.

Being able to read does not guarantee that one will be sensible. But it does increase the chances of it, and I think it is good to be reasonable.
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  #84  
Old 07-05-2016, 03:38 AM
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no I'm not. Or perhaps you're deliberately misunderstanding. There is no absolute value to literacy, much as a point in infinite vacuum is meaningless. However, in relation to illiteracy, literacy receives a value - better than. By a factor of what or margin of how much doesn't matter for my argument, nor do any consequences of the use of literacy.
Well yks do you realise that you are illiterate?

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Literacy allows one to add sources to ones knowledge that otherwise would not have been available. That means that, no matter what, it broadens the horizon. True, that may simply give room for more propaganda, but even then it allows for more chance for contradictions in that propaganda. This, in turn, increases the chance that someone thinks about things.

Being able to read does not guarantee that one will be sensible. But it does increase the chances of it, and I think it is good to be reasonable.
Depends on who gets to define what is reasonable.
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  #85  
Old 07-05-2016, 04:12 AM
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Depends on who gets to define what is reasonable.
Who, other than me, could be possibly qualified for that?
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  #86  
Old 07-05-2016, 04:24 AM
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Well yks do you realise that you are illiterate?
of course. no human is capable of being literate in everything, that would require being omniscient which, well... I'm not God, after all. At least, I'm fairly sure I'm not God.


and once again, I refuse to discuss theoretical absolutes with you, it's an exercise in pointless posturing and I'm in no mood and don't care that you're bored.
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  #87  
Old 07-05-2016, 04:40 AM
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of course. no human is capable of being literate in everything, that would require being omniscient which, well... I'm not God, after all. At least, I'm fairly sure I'm not God.
Ah, but would you actually know it if you were omniscient?

Edited to add:
If I were omniscient, then I would know that I couldn't know for certain there weren't things that I didn't know I didn't know.
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  #88  
Old 07-05-2016, 08:47 AM
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Ah, but would you actually know it if you were omniscient?

Edited to add:
If I were omniscient, then I would know that I couldn't know for certain there weren't things that I didn't know I didn't know.
I think if I were omniscient I would know that I was omniscient. Otherwise I wouldn't be omniscient...
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  #89  
Old 07-05-2016, 09:10 AM
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But if you're omniscient, does that mean that you also know things that you can't know?
If not, then you not knowing could be because you simply can't know, and it wouldn't be a symptom of having a flawed omniscience at all.
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  #90  
Old 07-05-2016, 10:49 AM
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If I were omniscient I'd last about 5 seconds before either my head exploded or I ended my existence. There's enough stuff I know now that makes me not want to live on this planet any more. If I knew the total depths of depravity that humanity is capable of...
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  #91  
Old 07-05-2016, 11:06 AM
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Perhaps there's a difference between knowing something and being aware that you know it. In that case, everyone might be omniscient, but not everyone is omniconscious.
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  #92  
Old 07-22-2016, 01:30 PM
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Probably makes more sense to just attach this to an earlier terrorist attack thread, than to start a new one, as this seems more and more like a daily occurrence.

Nice (July 14th)
Germany Train Attack (July 20th)


And now Munich today.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874

Are we going to start seeing a slew of mass deportation laws passed, or at least debated, in Germany and France? I have to say that I'm surprised to not hear of more widespread calls for mass expulsion of all Muslims from Europe the same way we have here increasingly amongst Republicans. Certainly any thoughts of resurrecting Schengen have got to be over, right? Certainly any contemplation of ever allowing Turkey into the EU has got to be permanently gone.
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  #93  
Old 07-22-2016, 01:39 PM
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I have to say that I'm surprised to not hear of more widespread calls for mass expulsion of all Muslims from Europe the same way we have here increasingly amongst Republicans. Certainly any thoughts of resurrecting Schengen have got to be over, right? Certainly any contemplation of ever allowing Turkey into the EU has got to be permanently gone.
Expelling all muslims is pretty much impossible. You'd have to expell around 10% of the entire population, a bunch of whom were born here.
Why resurrecting Schengen? Was it ever dead? I kinda like visiting family without having to stand in line for hours at a border. Also, the benefits to the economy are so enormous, that a bunch of countries will do a lot to keep it going.
Turkey into the EU was a really long-term thing anyway and will be pretty much on hold when they actually re-introduce the death penalty...
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  #94  
Old 07-22-2016, 01:43 PM
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Expelling all muslims is pretty much impossible. You'd have to expell around 10% of the entire population, a bunch of whom were born here.
Why resurrecting Schengen? Was it ever dead? I kinda like visiting family without having to stand in line for hours at a border. Also, the benefits to the economy are so enormous, that a bunch of countries will do a lot to keep it going.
Turkey into the EU was a really long-term thing anyway and will be pretty much on hold when they actually re-introduce the death penalty...
I know it's impossible, it is here too. Doesn't change the fact that people are scared, and increasingly xenophobic. At least here. As for Schengen, it certainly seems increasingly compromised from an outsiders perspective, at least as concerns the increasing desires to stop the influx of refugees. Concerning Turkey, prior to the rise of the AKP, their inclusion seemed almost inevitable. Now I think they're moving towards expulsion from NATO.
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  #95  
Old 07-22-2016, 02:17 PM
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At least here. As for Schengen, it certainly seems increasingly compromised from an outsiders perspective, at least as concerns the increasing desires to stop the influx of refugees. Concerning Turkey, prior to the rise of the AKP, their inclusion seemed almost inevitable. Now I think they're moving towards expulsion from NATO.
I'll admit it's somewhat compromised at least in Eastern European countries. A Hungarian in my EVE Online corporation (=guild) mentioned that the 8 hour vacation trip to the Mediterranian turned into a 2 day trip because of all the closed borders. Doesn't mean it's fully dead, though.
That's interesting about Turkey, because it's always been Ak Party since I've paid any attention to that part of the world. Learn something everyday.
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  #96  
Old 07-22-2016, 02:50 PM
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That's interesting about Turkey, because it's always been Ak Party since I've paid any attention to that part of the world. Learn something everyday.
The AKP was founded in 2001, and Erdogan became PM in 2003. Prior to that Turkey was far more secular. I've never personally visited (I went to Greece a few years ago, and considered adding in Ephesos, Istanbul, and a few other obvious archaeological sites, but hesitated because Turkey was already getting quite unpleasant back in 2012, and obviously far more so now) but I knew quite a few colleagues back in my grad school days that went their on archaeological digs in the summers. Back in the late 90s and early aughts it was a far different place. Sure, women still had to be told before going to remember only to bring one piece bathing suits, no bikinis, that sort of nonsense. But it was still secular. Now? It's not just that it's dangerous. It's not just that he has instigated sectarian strife with the Kurds for his own political gain. The AKP is basically the Muslim Brotherhood, and Erdogan has become increasingly dictatorial. You mention the death penalty, but let's be blunt, the problem with Turkey is not the death penalty's possible revival. It's his systematic (and long predating the coup) attack on political opponents, on freedom of the press, on women's rights, on secularism, and his consolidation of dictatorial power. The death penalty has its own problems, but is hardly worth mentioning in comparison to those other issues. We shouldn't pretend that the situation is somehow less bad if the dictator is simply arresting and indefinitely imprisoning journalists and political opponents than if he is executing them. The problem is that he is a dictator. The problem is that justice has become the whim of the strongman.
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  #97  
Old 07-22-2016, 04:07 PM
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Speaking of xenophobia, this situation is getting more confused...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...g-mall-8475616
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  #98  
Old 07-23-2016, 03:40 AM
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Concerning Turkey, prior to the rise of the AKP, their inclusion seemed almost inevitable.
Actually, at first, the rise of the AKP was something that helped towards EU membership. It showed that the army was finally getting over its totalitarian reflexes and allowed real diversity. Another group which benefited in the same way were the Kurds, who could get some of their parties into Parliament as well. Now Erdogan is working against diversity, and one of the signs of that is that he has taken over the suppression of the Kurds which for so long was a military pastime.

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Now I think they're moving towards expulsion from NATO.
Maybe not this year, yet. Then again, maybe president Trump will leave NATO before Turkey does.
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Old 07-23-2016, 05:31 AM
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Speaking of xenophobia, this situation is getting more confused...
[/URL]
German police is now saying that it looks to be a shooting rampage by an 18 year old (who happens to be Iranian-German), but no relation to Islamic terrorism (or any other kind of terrorism). Seems to be more akin to the shooting we had in the Netherlands in Alphen a few years ago.
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Old 07-23-2016, 09:40 AM
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Actually, at first, the rise of the AKP was something that helped towards EU membership. It showed that the army was finally getting over its totalitarian reflexes and allowed real diversity. Another group which benefited in the same way were the Kurds, who could get some of their parties into Parliament as well. Now Erdogan is working against diversity, and one of the signs of that is that he has taken over the suppression of the Kurds which for so long was a military pastime.

Maybe not this year, yet. Then again, maybe president Trump will leave NATO before Turkey does.
The brief cease fire with the Kurds was not due to any sense of clemency by the AKP, it was due to the arrest of Ocalan (who coincidentally was carrying Greek and Cypriot passports - this embarrassment, as it happens, along with the earthquake, also in 1999, was what removed the main obstacle to Turkish membership in the EU - the Greek veto), the PKK leader. They simply thought the Kurdish threat had been neutralized. It was not any actual change in outlook towards the Kurds, nor certainly any sympathy for their plight. The subsequent rise of the HDP in the Turkish Parliament led to so immediate a return to hostility to make that quite clear. There was no real change here in policy regarding the Kurds, only temporary neglect. The more serious change, at least in my opinion, is the attack on laicite.
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