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  #741  
Old 07-14-2016, 11:35 AM
Foshy Foshy is offline
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Ok, this is strengthening my belief that maybe the first 2 books were made before they came up with the embossed text style and thus don't exist in that style. I will maybe try to do some more research into it still but atleast if I can get confirmation on my belief then I will just have to settle for the "flat" jacket style.
Thanks for your help anyways guys!
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  #742  
Old 07-26-2016, 11:49 AM
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For the Sea Folk, would travelling through the Ways count as being "out of sight of the land"?
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  #743  
Old 09-28-2016, 07:17 PM
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Okay, I've got some conflicting information here and I wanted some outside opinions to help me sort it out. So, at least two sources say that the old tongue word "mera" is a SUFFIX meaning "without". However, in the text of the books the only time I know of seeing it used is in the word Mera'din, which is the brotherless. Or, I guess more literally, without brothers. In that example it is certainly NOT a suffix, as it is pinned to the beginning of the word. So would this carry over for other words? For instance, (and I know there is no time where this word shows up in the text but based on the precedent set by the word Mera'din) would it make sense to say that ownerless would be Mera'cova, rather than Cova'mera, where Mera is used as a suffix?
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  #744  
Old 09-28-2016, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Isaiah View Post
Okay, I've got some conflicting information here and I wanted some outside opinions to help me sort it out. So, at least two sources say that the old tongue word "mera" is a SUFFIX meaning "without". However, in the text of the books the only time I know of seeing it used is in the word Mera'din, which is the brotherless. Or, I guess more literally, without brothers. In that example it is certainly NOT a suffix, as it is pinned to the beginning of the word. So would this carry over for other words? For instance, (and I know there is no time where this word shows up in the text but based on the precedent set by the word Mera'din) would it make sense to say that ownerless would be Mera'cova, rather than Cova'mera, where Mera is used as a suffix?
Encylopedia WoT has a pretty exhaustive, albeit old (1998), list of Old Tongue vocabulary. They list "mera" as a noun meaning "nothing".

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/history/compleat.html

RJ was a great world builder, excellent with dialogue, magic-system creation, and battle narrative, but he wasn't a linguist. I don't think you should peruse the Old Tongue with the expectation that it will always make sense.

This list seems a bit more exhaustive, and recent.

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Old_Tongue_words

It does give "mera" as "without", though, they correctly note that meaning as a preposition rather than as a suffix.

Last edited by Kimon; 09-28-2016 at 08:18 PM.
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  #745  
Old 09-29-2016, 04:43 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
RJ was a great world builder, excellent with dialogue, magic-system creation, and battle narrative, but he wasn't a linguist. I don't think you should peruse the Old Tongue with the expectation that it will always make sense.
I am not a linguist either, but I think that your statement can be generalised to "you should not expect any language to always make sense".
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  #746  
Old 09-29-2016, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
I am not a linguist either, but I think that your statement can be generalised to "you should not expect any language to always make sense".
Agreed, but that would be even more true of a naturally evolved language than for one that was newly created. I was mostly thinking of the fact that there wasn't even a clear certainty on part of speech in the example given above. If one version had said preposition, another adverb, and then allowed for usage as a prefix, there wouldn't be any conflict, but there is a far greater issue when the uncertainty is noun or preposition, and potentially even confusion over what a suffix is. I just don't think that readers can have the same expectations with the New Tongue as they should say with Quenya in Tolkien, since Tolkien was a linguist.

My main issue with the Old Tongue is that it was supposed to be the parent language of their current language, yet the two demonstrate no apparent linguistic similarity from a vocabulary standpoint. I would have either just used something like a mix of Middle English, Archaic French and German, and Latin for the Old Tongue.
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  #747  
Old 09-29-2016, 08:20 AM
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Middle English and the like are only a thousand years away from us, and Latin about 2,000 (depending on which Latin you take; I think it's still the official language of Vatican City). The difference between the languages in Randland, on the other hand, started already before the Breaking, more than 3,000 years in the past. And it was then made worse by the political and physical troubles which occurred in that period. The big surprise is that there weren't hundreds of different languages all over the map. Perhaps that can be ascribed to a miraculous intervention by the Creator; though that isn't supposed to have happened.
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  #748  
Old 09-29-2016, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
The big surprise is that there weren't hundreds of different languages all over the map. Perhaps that can be ascribed to a miraculous intervention by the Creator; though that isn't supposed to have happened.
That the various countries west of the Spine all had essentially the same language (excepting, I suppose, the eccentric inverse syntax of Illian), is one thing. Even the Seanchan at least to an extent makes sense, since Hawkwing's conquistadors all presumably spoke New Tongue (never mind the problems of Mat's memories of speaking Old Tongue complicating this illogic beyond recovery), but there is no way to explain why the Aiel aren't speaking either Old Tongue or at least a very different language from the others.
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  #749  
Old 09-29-2016, 10:23 AM
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The Aiel can be explained by referring to all those gleemen who went there, telling tales and seducing Maidens. They also had some contact with AS to help keep their language on track. The Sea Folk are a lot less easy to explain, though.

And, of course, the Seanchan had about as much time to devise another language as the British have had after the Norman conquest.
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  #750  
Old 09-29-2016, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Encylopedia WoT has a pretty exhaustive, albeit old (1998), list of Old Tongue vocabulary. They list "mera" as a noun meaning "nothing".

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/history/compleat.html

RJ was a great world builder, excellent with dialogue, magic-system creation, and battle narrative, but he wasn't a linguist. I don't think you should peruse the Old Tongue with the expectation that it will always make sense.

This list seems a bit more exhaustive, and recent.

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Old_Tongue_words

It does give "mera" as "without", though, they correctly note that meaning as a preposition rather than as a suffix.
The Companion is the definitive reference for the Old Tongue now, and the Wiki entry agrees with it (at least in this case; it may have been updated after the Companion was released):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Jordan, Harriet McDougal, Alan Romanczuk & Maria Simons. "The Wheel of Time Companion."

mera—(prep.) without; lacking
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  #751  
Old 03-01-2017, 03:44 AM
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Do AS suffer from PMS?
If so, how does that affect their Warders? They would feel some of the same through the Bond, after all.
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  #752  
Old 03-01-2017, 01:07 PM
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I bet they have some fancy OP way of avoiding all that business.
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  #753  
Old 03-02-2017, 03:26 AM
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Probably. But if it is a Red Ajah secret, that's not really much of an improvement over not having any solution, is it?
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  #754  
Old 04-13-2017, 07:23 AM
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What does the title "The fires of heaven" refer to?
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  #755  
Old 04-13-2017, 07:58 AM
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I't a quote from the Prophecies of the Dragon:
Quote:
With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere. The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised. Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth. There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death.
That is the preprologue to TFoH. It is a reference to the lightnings that Rand and Sammael (and Egwene and Aviendha) used in the Battle of Cairhien.
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  #756  
Old 04-14-2017, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
I't a quote from the Prophecies of the Dragon:

That is the preprologue to TFoH. It is a reference to the lightnings that Rand and Sammael (and Egwene and Aviendha) used in the Battle of Cairhien.
It's at least partly a reference to the heat. I might even go so far as to say that's the main reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOC 1
In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose among brown-thicketed hills in Cairhien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TFOH
The hills burn, and the land turns sere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOC 1
Westward the wind blew over abandoned villages and farms, many only jumbles of charred timber. War had racked Cairhien, war and civil war, invasion and chaos, and even now that it was done, insofar as it was done, only a handful began to trickle back to their homes. The wind held no moisture, and the sun tried to sear away what little remained in the land. Where the small town of Maerone faced larger Aringill across the River Erinin, the wind crossed into Andor. Both towns baked, and if more prayers for rain rose in Aringill, where refugees from Cairhien jammed inside the walls like fish in a cask, even the soldiers packed around Maerone offered up words to the Creator, sometimes drunkenly, sometimes fervently. Winter should have been beginning to send out tendrils, the first snows long past, and those who sweated feared the reason it was not so, though few dared voice those fears.

Westward the wind blew, stirring drought-shriveled leaves on the trees, riffling the surface of shrinking streams bordered in hard-baked mud. There were no burned-out ruins in Andor, but villagers eyed the swollen sun nervously and farmers tried not to look at fields that had produced no fall crops.
Etc., etc.
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