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  #201  
Old 09-01-2009, 09:08 PM
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Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax
Ishamael's original plan is still mostly working:
...

Remember Amico did not lie about the Black Ajah heart system to Nynaeve, Egwene & Aviendha during her confessions, nor about that vague threat in Tanchiro aim against the Dragon Reborn (Sad Bracets). So why can't both of them in a macro sense, of told the truth?
Joiya wasn't asked about Ishamael's plan, she was asked where Liandrin and the rest of the Keystone Koven went. They did NOT go to free Taim.

Given the Heart structure of the BA as detailed by Amico, one has to question how Joiya even knew about Ishamael's plan to betray it in such detail.

Egwene doubts Joiya's story because of it's very plausibility and detail -- she knows far more than she should and is revealing far more than is necessary to answer the primary question.

Egwene isn't able to quantify why she doesn't believe Joiya that precisely, but too perfect answers just sound phony even if they are true.
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  #202  
Old 09-01-2009, 09:52 PM
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Notice Joiya does not once mention the Black Ajah nor any of the Forsaken during this confession. Why? She's still subject to the Black Ajah's oathes, which she can't speak of.


Remember Amico did not lie about the Black Ajah heart system to Nynaeve, Egwene & Aviendha during her confessions, nor about that vague threat in Tanchiro aim against the Dragon Reborn (Sad Bracets). So why can't both of them in a macro sense, of told the truth?
She can't speak of the plan, if it's real. You seem to think that she only can't speak of the Black Ajah.

Amico could tell the truth, because she was severed and her Oaths lapsed. Joiya was shielded and her Oaths were in full force. That is awhy Amico could tell the truth and Joiya couldn't.

Quote:
However, Moiraine at least was playing it safe and trusted enough of Joiya's story to send three pigeons to warn Siuan about the whole confession.
Trust had nothing to do with it. From your own quote:
Quote:
No, she thought. Joiya is lying. I am sure she is. Yet they could not afford to ignore either story.
Acting on Joiya's story has no connection with trusting Joiya's story.
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  #203  
Old 09-01-2009, 11:56 PM
Neilbert Neilbert is offline
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold
Raising an army, yes. Impersonating Rand, not so much.
He's giving false orders in Rand's name. That's impersonating Rand.
  #204  
Old 09-02-2009, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the silent speaker
She can't speak of the plan, if it's real. You seem to think that she only can't speak of the Black Ajah.

Amico could tell the truth, because she was severed and her Oaths lapsed. Joiya was shielded and her Oaths were in full force. That is awhy Amico could tell the truth and Joiya couldn't.

Quote:
There was so much subterfuge here in Salidar. Not just Birgitte, and Moghdien. One of the Oaths kept an Aes Sedai from lying, but what was not spoken of did not have to be lied over. Moraine had known how to weave a cloak of invisibility, maybe the same one they learned from Moghedien; Nynaeve had seen Moiraine do it once, before Nynaeve knew anything of the Power. No one else in Salidar had known, though. Or admitted to it, anyway. Birgette had confirmed what Elayne had begin to suspect. Most Aes Sedai, maybe all, kept back at least part of what they learned; most had their own secret tricks. Those might become common knowledge taught to novices or Accepted, if enough Aes Sedai learned them--they might die with the Aes Sedai.
Source LOC

Tell me, where did you believe Joiya lied then?

Point it out, because what she said has occurred and is occurring in the story.

"Kept back" is not the same thing as lying, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
Raising an army, yes. Impersonating Rand, not so much.
How about violating Rand's orders, at the end KoD..."fair is fair", laugh. Taim is overthrowing Rand's control of the Black Tower, if that's not impersonating him hard to say what isn't. Even Logain thinks Taim is doing this, in KoD, yet Rand does not want to believe Logain's judgment sadly.

Last edited by FelixPax; 09-02-2009 at 03:34 AM.
  #205  
Old 09-02-2009, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
Joiya wasn't asked about Ishamael's plan, she was asked where Liandrin and the rest of the Keystone Koven went. They did NOT go to free Taim.
Actually Nynaeve nor Egwene do not bring up Liandrin's name during the questioning in TSR, but Joiya herself does in the confession.

Quote:
"Give us your tale again," Egwene commanded
Source TSR


The key to whether one believes Joiya is lying or not; I think has to do with the meaning, understanding of what the word "means" is in this context. As in:

Quote:
Before he can be brought to Tar Valon and gentled, Liandrin means to break him free.
Source TSR

The use of the word "means" does not necessary create the meaning that Liandrin literally is going to go free Taim herself. Only that there is plan in process to do so, by Liandrin and by associated the Black Ajah.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
Given the Heart structure of the BA as detailed by Amico, one has to question how Joiya even knew about Ishamael's plan to betray it in such detail.
Remember it's the first time in hundreds of years, that 13 separate Black Ajah finally know who 12 other B.A's identities are, besides the top few leaders - Galina, Alviarin et al -- and their own personal heart contacts.

Bel'al, Ishamael, and Mesaana all helped set-up the plan to capture Rand, using as bait-- Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne. I would find it difficult to believe that some of those B.A. were not filled in on those particular plans.

Last edited by FelixPax; 09-02-2009 at 04:00 AM.
  #206  
Old 09-02-2009, 04:01 AM
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Still, the whole plan, everything that Taim did, may have come into existence only after Moiraine's messages were intercepted.

Why ignore the simplest explanation: that Joiya made it up, and it was only later adopted by the Shadow as a plan which might actually be useful?
  #207  
Old 09-02-2009, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Still, the whole plan, everything that Taim did, may have come into existence only after Moiraine's messages were intercepted.

Why ignore the simplest explanation: that Joiya made it up, and it was only later adopted by the Shadow as a plan which might actually be useful?
Not likely at all, as Taim escaped we know of by TSR Chapter 17 from Min's pov listening to Siuan in the White Tower.

Look at what else was occurring at the very same time, Taim was freed, in the same chapter:
(1) Starvation in Cairhien.
(2) An Aes Sedai missing in Tarabon. Points at "Seanchan" and Suroth, Semirhage, Ishamael.
(3) Trolloc raids increasing in the Borderlands.
(4) Someone calling himself the Prophet stirring up riots in Ghealdan. "Points at Masema" and "Verin"
(5) War in Arad Doman stopping trade from Saldaea, which might dethrone Tenobia. Points at "Graendal" and "Asmodean"
(6) Then Morgase is likely to invade Cairhien. Points to "Rahvin"
Then we learn Mazrim Taim has escaped and two Aes Sedai killed. It happened at the village of Denhuir on the Maradon Road east of the Black Hills above the headwaters of the River Antaeo and River Luan.

Separately Careane Fransi, a Black Ajah, once suggested to Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha et al go the "Black Hills" as a safe place to go (ACoS Chapter 39). Ha!!

Notice that the the escape of Taim forces Siuan to remove a large amount of Tar Valon guardsand sisters to create a task force to attempt to re-capture & gentle Taim on the spot. (TSR, Chapter "Deceptions")

Soldiers. Which oddly enough, is one topic asked about by one Aes Sedai relatively directly previous in a book who asks a Tar Valon Guard at the Bridge with Hurin, Egwene, Nynaeve & Mat in tow...how good are the soldiers at keeping the White Cloaks out of town & the outer villages. Yes, Verin was the one who asked, and Egwene was angry at the delay to heal Mat, because of this questioning. See TDR, Chapter 11.

Implication is if the White Tower cannot keep the White Cloaks out, it would be easier to overthrown Siuan by bringing in "masons".

Last edited by FelixPax; 09-02-2009 at 05:23 AM.
  #208  
Old 09-02-2009, 12:42 PM
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Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax
Actually Nynaeve nor Egwene do not bring up Liandrin's name during the questioning in TSR, but Joiya herself does in the confession.
If we saw the entire questioning from the very first questions, you might have a point. However, allwe see is the last two sessions where Amico's stroy boiles down to "Liandrin is going to Tanchico to find something to control Rand" and Joiya's story boils down to "Liandrin is going North to free Taim and besmirch Rand's reputation."

It is necessary to infer that the main thrust of the interrogation from the beginning matches the Supergirls orders from Siuan -- find and neutralize Liandrin and the Keystone Koven.

We are shown the last couple of interrogations to highlight the difficulty the Supergirls have in deciding where to go next in pursuit of Liandrin and the Keystone Koven.

The Supergirls' mission was to find Liandrin and they hadn't gotten on with their mission because they had two conflicting stories of where Liandrin was going, only one of which could be true.
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  #209  
Old 09-02-2009, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax
how good are the soldiers at keeping the White Cloaks out of town & the outer villages. Yes, Verin was the one who asked, and Egwene was angry at the delay to heal Mat, because of this questioning. See TDR, Chapter 11.

Implication is if the White Tower cannot keep the White Cloaks out, it would be easier to overthrown Siuan by bringing in "masons".
I suppose you could look at it as Verin seeing how easy it would be for someone to bring in mercenaries but here is another slant.

Verin has been out of the tower for a bit. She has spent a lot longer there than Moiraine who was out and about more or less since she gained the Shawl. Verin would therefor be much more attuned to the currents and politics in the WT. When she gets back she wisely decised to check out the lay of the land first before charging boldly in with the Horn & a close allie of the Dragon and fellow Ta'avern.

Now she can't just go up to a sister and ask if anyting interesting has been going on while she was away. Instead she talks to what she would view as a tool or servant who would carry out the orders of the real players in the game of politics. From his orders she might get a hint of what has been going on while she was away.

When Thom is doing his snooping he does not just go up to the powerful and ask what they want instead he examines their orders and what rumours are going around. I believe it was in KoD that he figured out one of the local lords was allied with the Seanchan from the orders they has been given.
  #210  
Old 09-02-2009, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
If we saw the entire questioning from the very first questions, you might have a point. However, allwe see is the last two sessions where Amico's stroy boiles down to "Liandrin is going to Tanchico to find something to control Rand" and Joiya's story boils down to "Liandrin is going North to free Taim and besmirch Rand's reputation."
I appreciate your deep knowledge of the series WH, however...

How one interprets Joiya's confession depends upon one's judgment of which definition of the verb "means" was used by Joiya:

Quote:
  • mean 1 (mn)
  • v. meant (mnt), mean·ing, means
  • v.tr.
  • 1.
  • a. To be used to convey; denote: "'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things'" (Lewis Carroll).
  • b. To act as a symbol of; signify or represent: In this poem, the budding flower means youth.
  • 2. To intend to convey or indicate: "No one means all he says, and yet very few say all they mean, for words are slippery and thought is viscous" (Henry Adams).
  • 3. To have as a purpose or an intention; intend: I meant to go running this morning, but I overslept.
  • 4. To design, intend, or destine for a certain purpose or end: a building that was meant for storage; a student who was meant to be a scientist.
  • 5. To have as a consequence; bring about: Friction means heat.
  • 6. To have the importance or value of: The opinions of the critics meant nothing to him. She meant so much to me.
  • v.intr.
  • To have intentions of a specified kind; be disposed: They mean well but lack tact.
And here is Merriam-Webster's definition:

Quote:
  • Main Entry: 1mean
  • Pronunciation: \ˈmēn\
  • Function: verb
  • Inflected Form(s): meant \ˈment\; mean·ing \ˈmē-niŋ\
  • Etymology: Middle English menen, from Old English mę̄nan; akin to Old High German meinen to have in mind, Old Church Slavic měniti to mention
  • Date: before 12th century
  • transitive verb
  • 1 a : to have in the mind as a purpose : intend <she means to win> —sometimes used interjectionally with I, chiefly in informal speech for emphasis <he throws, I mean, hard> or to introduce a phrase restating the point of a preceding phrase <we try to answer what we can, but I mean we're not God — Bobbie Ann Mason> b : to design for or destine to a specified purpose or future <I was meant to teach>
  • 2 : to serve or intend to convey, show, or indicate : signify <a red sky means rain>
  • 3 : to have importance to the degree of <health means everything>
  • 4 : to direct to a particular individual
  • intransitive verb
  • : to have an intended purpose <he means well>

Joiya never said Liandrin was literally going to head after Taim herself to free him. All Joiya said was that Liandrin intended to have Taim freed, that was the plan. That was part of the design the Dark One created to counter the Dragon Reborn and try to turn Rand to the Shadow. If that not possible, to destroy the Dragon Reborn by all means necessary--even balefire, as Demandred is later asked to use.


RJ simply did an outstanding job of clouding the intentions of the Dark One, with his use of language.


Quote:
The Supergirls' mission was to find Liandrin and they hadn't gotten on with their mission because they had two conflicting stories of where Liandrin was going, only one of which could be true.
There is not a conflict between the two stories at all, both were telling the truth, as they understood it. Amico & Joiya just did not know the Dark One's complete plans were, only the outlines. Amico overheard Liandrin intentions of departure to Tanchiro to gain the sad bracelets, and Joiya was in on the Black Ajah's plan to free Taim. Both separate plans are a part of the greater Dark One's original plan put together by Ishamael and the other Forsaken.
  #211  
Old 09-02-2009, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax
There is not a conflict between the two stories at all, both were telling the truth, as they understood it. Amico & Joiya just did not know the Dark One's complete plans were, only the outlines. Amico overheard Liandrin intentions of departure to Tanchiro to gain the sad bracelets, and Joiya was in on the Black Ajah's plan to free Taim. Both separate plans are a part of the greater Dark One's original plan put together by Ishamael and the other Forsaken.
I would agree that meant in the contents of which it was used was that it was planned that Taim would be freed not that Liandrin would do the deed herself.

I am not so sure that both could be telling the truth. I stand to be corrected as for the life of me I can't recall which AS was severed and which shielded and am just to lazy to dig out the books but one was certainly still bound by the trinity of dark oaths that all BA take to replace the Three Oaths.

I've seen other threads where it was discussed what the three new oaths could be but I was under the impression that there was a general concensus that on of the oaths is that BA members could not betray current BA plans.

The two old AS with Elayne certainly pushed their captive hard for info on the way to Caemlyn but she did not give up anything useful. She couldn't as she was bound by the oaths.

If thats the case which ever AS was only shielded could not give up current info no matter how much she wanted to.
  #212  
Old 09-02-2009, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax
I appreciate your deep knowledge of the series WH, however...

How one interprets Joiya's confession depends upon one's judgment of which definition of the verb "means" was used by Joiya
Nope, the only criteria for judging the truth or falsehood of either Amico or Joiya is in the context of the information sought by their interrogators.


Amico gave them the correct information -- Liandrin and the Koven went to Tanchico.

Joiya's false story would have sent them on a wild-goose chase back to Tar Valon or into the Borderlands --anywhere except where Liandrin and the Koven actually went.

In response to questioning about where Liandrin went, Amico gave a specific location; Jopiya gave tall tale that encompassed half the continent.

FWIW, Joiya was ordered to tell her story again "using different words" -- 'means' was therfore a "different word" than Joiya would have chosen first; intends, plans, or the like.

You're hanging your entire argument on the second or third choice wording of Joiya's story?
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  #213  
Old 09-02-2009, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Enigma
I suppose you could look at it as Verin seeing how easy it would be for someone to bring in mercenaries but here is another slant.

Verin has been out of the tower for a bit. She has spent a lot longer there than Moiraine who was out and about more or less since she gained the Shawl. Verin would therefor be much more attuned to the currents and politics in the WT. When she gets back she wisely decised to check out the lay of the land first before charging boldly in with the Horn & a close allie of the Dragon and fellow Ta'avern.
Years ago when I first originally read the WoT series a fresh, I held this very same interpretation of Verin's actions at the Bridge the day. On the surface it is very logical, and frankly I find it uncommon that a person would not ask questions regarding their safety in town after encountering a small force of White Cloaks in route to Tar Valon.

Strangely after that whole trip taking Mat across the Grasslands, Verin indirectly suggests to Siuan to let Mat die by not healing him and let another sound the Horn. Siuan will have none of it.

The thing there are far, far too many unusual events, when taken all together point a questioning eye to almost of Verin's actions over the series. Verin simply seems to be the perfect person to become one of the "uber-villians" of the series. Sort of the WoT's version of Darth Vader, as a paging turning character shocker.


Only a hunch, however Verin would make ideal #3 ranking Black Ajah in status, after only Alviarin & Galina. Yes, not one Blue, Green, Yellow or Grey to found in the top 3 B.A.'s ranks; who's Ajahs' all had the status or power till very recently in the White Tower. The White, Brown, and Red Ajah all were the outcast Ajah's in overt political status until the recent "vileness" years. It would make sense, that the top of the Black Ajah's hierarchy would include members from the White, Red, and Brown Ajahs. The Brown Ajah also is unique in that they can gain access the the 13th Depository secrets without having one Black Ajah in the Hall Council nor as an Ajah Head. A Brown-Black Ajah librarian sister in the top leadership would have unique access to valuable a resource: information on everybody.


There later is the very mysterious events surrounding Demira's assault by psuedo-Aiel in Caemlyn. Where Demira was attempting to met up for a known spy for the Brown Ajah outside the New City Gate, to gain information about the "seals" holding the Dark One in the Bore. Only three Brown Ajah were known to be found in Caemlyn and with the Salidar Aes Sedai were: Demira Eriff of Arad Doman, Masuri Sokawa of Arafel, and Verin of Far Madding.

We can assume that both Masuri and Verin knew who Demira agent was, and could of learned what she was trying to learn for Milam Harnder. Later we learn from Elayne's First Maid that Milam Harnder is still sending pigeon mail North, not South to Salidar. Which leads to the question, of who this Milam Harnder serves in Tar Valon? Black Ajah? Personal Agent for the Brown Ajah? Regardless of who Milam Harnder master is, either Masuri and/or Verin could of easily delayed Milam from meeting Demira & silenced him. And set-up the whole assault on Demira, who is from a country about as far from the Waste and the Aiel as possible. Unlike either Verin and Masuri, who both have likely seen Aiel previously, based on their countries of origin. My own guess is that Verin set it up, as we already know she was actively manipulating the embassy to takeover control from Merana.


Enigma, I like your take on the events with Verin, except there is simply to many strange events tied to Verin to point to her being a simply one dimensional character. Verin has an big agenda, but she has not told all us readers what it is exactly. RJ in the beginning the series gave us much more detail about Verin, then he reduced the focus on Verin and limited information about her in the story. RJ did say in an audio interview, if Readers were getting too close to figuring out what he wanted "hidden" for now, he would be have to be more "subtle" is his writing style about that character or event. Verin as character, has over time become a more clouded character, who's centrality to the storyline has been underplayed for the last bunch of books.

In the first book, we do not meet a Black Ajah--just a scary Red Ajah named Elaida, who many characters take as a Black Ajah but she is not (a false positive). However we meet as readers in book two, Alviarin, Verin in Far Moran along with a party of Aes Sedai from every Ajah with Siuan & Leane. We also learn that Verin knows Alviarin relatively well, during a discussion later about increasing the reproduction of the channelling ability in the Westlands.

Last edited by FelixPax; 09-02-2009 at 04:50 PM.
  #214  
Old 09-02-2009, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neilbert
Asmodean fell asleep after a hard days battle and a belly full of wine and Lanfear killed him in TAR.

IDK why this discussion keeps popping up.

I concur. about asmo in TAR by lanfear. don't know about the belly and wine. I never was very good at clue.
 

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