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  #21  
Old 09-04-2009, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brita
Meh- we'll never agree. It is a fundamental difference in philosophy. I value our social programs and personal responsibility both. I don't mind helping someone out who needs it through my taxes and government, because it may be me one day.

But, I also fully realise that, due to human nature, this help will be abused and misused. It's a failing I am willing to live with.

I can understand your viewpoint in that you may not be willing to live with the failings of this system, if fact I can fully appreciate this. Yet, you seem unwilling to even try to see a) social policies are not meant to absolve or replace personal responsibility and b) these two ideals can go hand in hand in one entity (be it person or politics). So unwilling, that you would label a social minded person a hypocrite if they even dare talk about the importance of personal responsibility. Pretty much a discussion-ender, really.
You fail to realize. There is Sini's point of view. All else is to be ridiculed.
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  #22  
Old 09-04-2009, 04:10 PM
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Abuse will always occur, regardless of the economic and social system. Its a question of whether you'd rather see Big Business rape the system or see a bunch of poor people abuse the system. Why is one held up to be great and the other ripped as evil Communism or Socialism?
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  #23  
Old 09-04-2009, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Social policies are meant to be a saftey net in the time of dire need
A safety net that does absolutely nothing to recognize whether a person caught in it contributed to his needing it or not.

Quote:
Shit happens. To the best of us. These policies are meant to help our countrymen when shit befalls them, because such is life.
See my point about blaming something else, ie fate. There is always something someone could have done to avoid shit happening. Always. You can't always control what happens to you but you can ALWAYS control how you react to it. The only people who ever truly get screwed by life are those who let it screw them.

Quote:
I don't mind helping someone out who needs it through my taxes and government, because it may be me one day.
I do because I don't think the vast majority of the people in the world deserve my help.
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  #24  
Old 09-04-2009, 04:20 PM
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At least it's not teaching to a test.
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  #25  
Old 09-04-2009, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian93
~drags out ESC couch~

This should get interesting.
Scoot over? I'll bring the cheese popcorn.
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  #26  
Old 09-04-2009, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bowlwoman
Scoot over? I'll bring the cheese popcorn.
~~Hops on~~

~~Looks around~~


What? Oh, you thought I was going to be half the show? Nah, it's 4:30 on a Friday, long weekend ahead of me, brain has officially shut down. Pass me a rum and coke, please, double strength.
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  #27  
Old 09-04-2009, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brita
~~Hops on~~

~~Looks around~~


What? Oh, you thought I was going to be half the show? Nah, it's 4:30 on a Friday, long weekend ahead of me, brain has officially shut down. Pass me a rum and coke, please, double strength.
~fetches~

Enjoy~

And have a great long weekend!
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  #28  
Old 09-04-2009, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian93
~fetches~

Enjoy~

And have a great long weekend!
Going to Huey's after work. Beer me, 'Keep.
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  #29  
Old 09-04-2009, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinistrum
A safety net that does absolutely nothing to recognize whether a person caught in it contributed to his needing it or not.
Well, you can't win 'em all.

Quote:
There is always something someone could have done to avoid shit happening. Always. You can't always control what happens to you but you can ALWAYS control how you react to it. The only people who ever truly get screwed by life are those who let it screw them.
Wow. How naive are you? I sure as shit hope nothing horrific ever happens to you, because the psychological shock would be heard round the world.

Quote:
I do because I don't think the vast majority of the people in the world deserve my help.
How magnanimous of you.
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  #30  
Old 09-04-2009, 05:41 PM
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Wow. How naive are you? I sure as shit hope nothing horrific ever happens to you, because the psychological shock would be heard round the world.
Ok, assuming for the sake of argument, that you're right and horrible things happen to people that they can neither avoid nor do anything to overcome. Lets assume also that such a thing happens to me. How does that translate into you, Brita, Davian, and everyone else on this board, in the country, and this world having a government mandated duty to help me out of it? Live and let die is the way of the world. Anything else is just personal preference, not moral imperative.

Quote:
How magnanimous of you.
The world is not a magnanimous place. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something. And oh btw, it was primarily the people you are now demanding that I turn around and help at government gun point that taught me this.
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  #31  
Old 09-04-2009, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinistrum
Ok, assuming for the sake of argument, that you're right and horrible things happen to people that they can neither avoid nor do anything to overcome. Lets assume also that such a thing happens to me. How does that translate into you, Brita, Davian, and everyone else on this board, in the country, and this world having a government mandated duty to help me out of it? Live and let die is the way of the world. Anything else is just personal preference, not moral imperative.



The world is not a magnanimous place. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something. And oh btw, it was primarily the people you are now demanding that I turn around and help at government gun point that taught me this.
To quote the Jokeslayer, just because it is that way doesn't mean it should be that way.

I'll be the first to tell you that, in most cases, the world sucks. But I'll also be happy to stand in line to make it better.
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  #32  
Old 09-04-2009, 06:26 PM
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~fetches beer for Taer~

Enjoy.
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  #33  
Old 09-04-2009, 06:36 PM
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To quote the Jokeslayer, just because it is that way doesn't mean it should be that way.

I'll be the first to tell you that, in most cases, the world sucks. But I'll also be happy to stand in line to make it better.
That's fine and I agree to a certain extent. Just because I think most people out there aren't worth my help doesn't mean there aren't those who are out there. However, that doesn't give either you or me the right enlist government guns to point at everyone else to get them to go along with it. Just because you want to make the world better doesn't mean you get to use the threat of force to drag everyone else along with you. And make no mistake about it, that is precisely what you are doing when you institute government social programs. You remove the element of choice about helping at all or who gets help from who.
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  #34  
Old 09-04-2009, 07:04 PM
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I think I will hop on the couch for this one.

Do you have coffee Dav?

Also, the protesting against this speech is retarded. Even Sini seems to recognize that, so all is well.

*sits on couch*
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  #35  
Old 09-04-2009, 07:28 PM
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Of course, the missus has violently opinionated parents on both sides of the issue.
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  #36  
Old 09-04-2009, 07:33 PM
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There's a poll going around Facebook, and while I expected the usual Republican ideologues to have a problem with it, there was one girl that voted 'no' (as in, it shouldn't be allowed) that surprised me. She seems pretty level-headed most of the time. So I commented on it, and asked her, 'just out of curiosity...why?' I haven't gotten a response yet...I just think it is too easy for those who are normally apathetic about politics to buy into the crap that's being put out by the conservative media - he's trying to brainwash our children! Whatever...yeah, children are impressionable...which is exactly why it's a good idea for Obama to use his cult of personality for STUFF LIKE THIS. ENCOURAGING CHILDREN TO STAY IN SCHOOL FOR THE BIWIDNB'S SAKE!
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  #37  
Old 09-04-2009, 08:34 PM
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I've yet to hear a logical reason why. From all official accounts, this is a non-partisan "Stay in School" encouragement speech. Why would it turn into a partisan brainwashing speech?

The main argument I've heard against it is that Obama is "forcing" students to listen to his speech, which is patently absurd on a variety of levels:

1) It's not mandatory (teachers can opt out)
2) The suggested assignments are not mandatory (teachers can opt out)
3) Obama doesn't get the final say about what the students walk away with from this experience.

Do you see who has the most power in this situation, who has the most chance to influence these kids? It's rather obvious when you think about it: the teacher.

If the conservatives are concerned about other people brainwashing and influencing their children without their permission, they should look to the teachers first. But nobody interviews and grills their children's teachers to the same extent that they're grilling Obama on this issue.

One of the questions that the conservatives are complaining about is on the Pre-K to 6th grade "assignment" sheet. It asks "What is the President trying to tell me to do?" Conservatives are suggesting that it's going to tell the kids they have to do what he tells them.


It could easily go this way:

Teacher: "What is the President trying to tell you?"
1st Grade Student: "To stay in school?"
Teacher: "No... he's telling you that he's smart and you're stupid, because he's black and you're white."

or maybe even:

Teacher: "No... he's telling you that you should tell your parents to support the health-care reform because it's the right thing to do!"

or maybe even:

Teacher: "No... he's telling you to do something bad, so you shouldn't listen to him at all. Instead, listen to Glenn Beck."

or maybe (gasp) even:

Teacher: "Yes! And why is staying in school important?"

As you can see, the teacher gets to make all of the decisions here: whether to show the speech at all, whether to do the assignments, and she very heavily influences what the students will walk away with.

And they're afraid of Obama talking?
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  #38  
Old 09-04-2009, 10:31 PM
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I'd give you my opinion on why those people feel that way but I've had way to much to drink and I just don't feel like fucking with it.
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