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  #21  
Old 10-02-2009, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokeslayer
Is there evidence for this?
For Lews Therin to have died and gone to Tel'aran'rhiod like a normal dead Hero proves Sodas' theory wrong. Therefore...
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  #22  
Old 10-02-2009, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
That's fine CC. Doubt is how we get to the truth.
Thanks Confucius.

Quote:
I believe his job was to reseal the Bore, the hole in the Dark One's Prison. Not patch it. Patching it with the seals seems to me to be a quick fix. Maybe that was all LTT could do without the women folk? Maybe he expected the women to finally work with him if he showed he could reduce the DO's effect on the world. (trapping the Forsaken would have been an added bonus)
Well, I believe RJ said that, had the women been involved, the result would have been a Tainted saidar and saidin, not a better "patch."


Quote:
Thank you for catching that. I edited the OP to reflect that. I ment to put person (or personality).

I feel that when LTT self-destructed, he destroyed his body. The soul in that case would return to TAR. But the person that is LTT, lay dormant inside Dragonmount unable to die.
So was the personality inside Dragonmount without the soul, or was the soul dormant (along with it's personality)? If it's the former, where did the soul go?

It sounds like you mean that the entire soul was dormant in Dragonmount, and that soul entered Rand's body...around the time of the birth (again, there's an RJ quote potentially disproving this, but he didn't mention LTT or Rand specifically).

If that's the case, why was the personality dormant, and why would channeling awaken it? That's a question for all the non-Constructors to answer, I guess.

Quote:
We've seen other persons come back to life void of either body or soul. Ghosts and whole towns that were probably wiped out in some war have come back. Granted, this is because of the weakening of the seals, but we have seen other "upset" spirits walking the earth. Heck, whole towns wiped out in wars have come back.

the point is, personalities, if tramatic enough of an event caused it's death, it leaves a ghost behind. Why not for the most tragic, powerfilled death we have yet seen in the books?
I like this idea, but again you're missing the soul aspect. Unless these ghosts are indeed entire souls that are somehow trapped away from the afterlife.


Quote:
Because LTT and Moridin are the respective champions of their side. They both have to die.

Remember, I believe LTT's persona is still alive and kicking.
Where does Rand fit in, then? He's not the Dragon Reborn, he's just a vessel for Lews Therin. If that's the case, who's Rand?

I don't agree that LTT and Moridin have some special metaphysical cosmic bond. The Chosen One might have a cosmic bond to Moridin's soul, but that could all be in Moridin's head. But the Chosen One soul is an amalgam, or he's only Rand. He's not just Lews Therin wearing Rand's body and fighting for control. That throws off your whole theory, because Lews Therin alone is no longer special (enough).
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  #23  
Old 10-02-2009, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian
Where does Rand fit in, then? He's not the Dragon Reborn, he's just a vessel for Lews Therin. If that's the case, who's Rand?
Confucius say, you are not first to ask question. See sig.
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  #24  
Old 10-02-2009, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokeslayer
I know we don't want to admit this, but: it's a book. If the wheel doesn't procrastinate, we all get to spend ten thousand pages reading about sheep farming and tabac growing.
I don't think that's the doing of the Wheel, but the success of the Dark One. Do you really think the Wheel wants Saidin to be tainted for 3000 years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokeslayer
Is there evidence for this?
Per Jordan
"- Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease. I have met many believers in reincarnation, and most of them seem to fear death just as much as anyone else."

So if everyone, including Hero's, has their persona wiped when they die, then the T'A'R version of them is not the last incarnation's persona.

My opinion, is that T'A'R replicates a persona based upon all memories. That includes Birgitte's own memories, but also the memories of other's reflecting on Birgitte. My impression on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
For Lews Therin to have died and gone to Tel'aran'rhiod like a normal dead Hero proves Sodas' theory wrong.
LTT's soul could have gone to T'A'R, just like every other Hero.

It's his persona that, unlike other hero's, stayed in place at Dragonmount because the uniqueness of his death.
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  #25  
Old 10-03-2009, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian
Where does Rand fit in, then? He's not the Dragon Reborn, he's just a vessel for Lews Therin. If that's the case, who's Rand?
Mat is the Dragon Reborn. Rand is the decoy.
  #26  
Old 10-03-2009, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
LTT's soul could have gone to T'A'R, just like every other Hero.

It's his persona that, unlike other hero's, stayed in place at Dragonmount because the uniqueness of his death.
Ok, what is a persona in the context of your theory? Is is a fragment of the soul, or an echo, or a series of memories?

Mat has other men's menories and he views them as if he was there but he does not hear another man's voice in his head like Rand.
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  #27  
Old 10-03-2009, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
Ok, what is a persona in the context of your theory? Is is a fragment of the soul, or an echo, or a series of memories?
It's what the character identifies as itself. It's self identity.

It's not a fragment of the Soul. The Soul is completely seperate.
It's not an echo.
It does have memories, but only because it created them. Memories in and of themselves, cannot become a personality.

you can say it's the personality and self-awareness of a sentient being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
Mat has other men's memories and he views them as if he was there but he does not hear another man's voice in his head like Rand.
Right, but those are just memories. Memories don't spawn personalities, it's the other way around. Personalities spawn memories of their actions and choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
So was the personality inside Dragonmount without the soul, or was the soul dormant (along with it's personality)? If it's the former, where did the soul go?
The Soul returns to TAR like all Hero Souls.

This is probably where I have changed over the years. I didn't realize how distinct the persona is in RJ's universe. But the persona is completely seperate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
It sounds like you mean that the entire soul was dormant in Dragonmount, and that soul entered Rand's body...around the time of the birth (again, there's an RJ quote potentially disproving this, but he didn't mention LTT or Rand specifically).
That is perhaps what I used to think, and that is why people are so confused. But that is wrong, as pointed out by RJ.

I'll repeat: The persona was dormant in Dragonmount. The Soul returns to TAR.

The Soul can be reborn without LTT's persona as that is what usually happens for everyone else.

It just so happens that Rand's mother comes to Dragonmount, where the Dragon Soul lay dormant, so that the LTT persona can rejoin with it. Afterall, Gitara did Foretell his birth once he was really born. Not back when Tigraine was prego.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
If that's the case, why was the personality dormant, and why would channeling awaken it? That's a question for all the non-Constructors to answer, I guess.
I figure 3000 years of going crazy in a volcano is probably impossible. Falling into a coma at some point more likely.

Why channeling would wake him up? Because rebirth obviously didn't. The reemergence of LTT tendancies start with the emergence of Rand's channeling abilities. Another reason, is that the Pattern needed Rand to grow his own persona, seperate from LTT, for everything to work out as the Pattern needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
I like this idea, but again you're missing the soul aspect. Unless these ghosts are indeed entire souls that are somehow trapped away from the afterlife.
No, I think they are personas that are trapped without body or soul. The souls of those people returned to the afterlife per normal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
Where does Rand fit in, then? He's not the Dragon Reborn, he's just a vessel for Lews Therin. If that's the case, who's Rand?
Sure, Rand's body and soul acts as a vessel for LTT to return. But that is not all Rand is. Rand is his own unique Dragon persona.

http://www.siliconcerebrate.com/faqs....1.6_lews.html
Quote:
Q: The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?

RJ: They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.
So Rand is the new Dragon persona, a new incarnation of the Dragon Soul. The same as LTT or any other Dragon persona, of which there have been infinite variations, but he is the newest one.

http://members.casema.nl/e.f.delaat/Leiden.html
Quote:
...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn. [And that's the phrase that ended my jubilation.]
It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?
It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to rebalance the Weaving of the Pattern.
Thank you Isabel
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Last edited by Sodas; 10-03-2009 at 02:48 PM.
  #28  
Old 10-03-2009, 03:45 PM
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I'm not sure I am following you Sodas. How can you have a personality without a soul. The only example I can think of is a grey man and I don't think that is what you were refering to.

My take on the WOT cosmology was that the soul is a bit like a diamond or other jewel that has been polished. With reincarnation we get to see one facet of the jewel being the personality and in the next life we see another facet but its always the same jewel and you can't have aspect of the jewel wandering around without the core jewel (soul).
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  #29  
Old 10-03-2009, 08:34 PM
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Does anyone else view Rand as merely the most recent iteration of the Dragon Soul?
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  #30  
Old 10-04-2009, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunderwaffe
Does anyone else view Rand as merely the most recent iteration of the Dragon Soul?
In the simplest of terms, that's exactly what Rand is.

RJ did say that the "Dragon Soul" is reborn in other ages in non-dragon roles, bu that's pretty much irrelevant to the end of this age

Rand is the current posesser of the Soul that is Born as the Dragon at the end of each second age and Reborn as the Dragon Reborn at the end of each third age.
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  #31  
Old 10-04-2009, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Enigma
I'm not sure I am following you Sodas. How can you have a personality without a soul. The only example I can think of is a grey man and I don't think that is what you were refering to
Gray men still have a body to possess. I'm suggesting personas without either body or soul.

Better example, ghosts and these cities rising from the ground. These are evidence of when emotional destress can "stain" the land leaving bits of personas behind. In LTT's case, it left what remained of the great mind, stuck in Dragonmount.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
My take on the WOT cosmology was that the soul is a bit like a diamond or other jewel that has been polished. With reincarnation we get to see one facet of the jewel being the personality and in the next life we see another facet but its always the same jewel and you can't have aspect of the jewel wandering around without the core jewel (soul).
But Jordan specifically says that the character's persona will cease to exist at death. Jordan has proven this theory wrong because this theory assumes incorrectly that the Soul maintains personalities. It doesn't.

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=26
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ on his blog
Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease. I have met many believers in reincarnation, and most of them seem to fear death just as much as anyone else.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-04-2009 at 02:50 AM.
  #32  
Old 10-04-2009, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
Gray men still have a body to possess. I'm suggesting personas without either body or soul.
Something like Mordeth in the Wheel of Time series?
I'm sure that would be impossible in RJ's books.
  #33  
Old 10-04-2009, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunderwaffe
Does anyone else view Rand as merely the most recent iteration of the Dragon Soul?
Similar to Tibetan Buddhism's Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama, and Karmapa Lama? All are said to be reincarnations of previous lamas or holy men, and their places in the hierarchy are determined by these reincarnated identities.

So Rand is the reincarnation of both the Dragon Reborn and L.T.T.; but are you suggesting Sodas that Rand can die once and live again without L.T.T and/or the Dragon Reborn in the next incarnation of his life??

Would Rand by losing the Dragon Reborn's incarnation become something else, lessor? Is this what your suggesting Sodas? So maybe someone like Jahar can follow after?
  #34  
Old 10-04-2009, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
Gray men still have a body to possess. I'm suggesting personas without either body or soul.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Something like Mordeth in the Wheel of Time series?
I'm sure that would be impossible in RJ's books.
The Ways can remove an Ogiers or individuals soul we along already know. Besides many forsaken do this with their servant slaves, to prevent information leaks (eg - Ishamael).
  #35  
Old 10-04-2009, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunderwaffe
Does anyone else view Rand as merely the most recent iteration of the Dragon Soul?
Yes. Namely, all of the people who voted for option two in this poll.
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  #36  
Old 10-05-2009, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax
Similar to Tibetan Buddhism's Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama, and Karmapa Lama? All are said to be reincarnations of previous lamas or holy men, and their places in the hierarchy are determined by these reincarnated identities.

So Rand is the reincarnation of both the Dragon Reborn and L.T.T.; but are you suggesting Sodas that Rand can die once and live again without L.T.T and/or the Dragon Reborn in the next incarnation of his life??
No. The next incarnation will be a fresh persona. Unless Rand fails to seal the DO and tries to kill himself afterwards like LTT.

Quote:
Would Rand by losing the Dragon Reborn's incarnation become something else, lessor? Is this what your suggesting Sodas? So maybe someone like Jahar can follow after?
I don't think he can lose the incarnation. If he was to move to another body, he would still be a Dragon persona and current Soul. Just, no one would recognize him, which might pave the way for Jahar or Logain or whatever...

But Rand is the current dragon persona and current holder of the Dragon Soul. LTT is just a personality.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.
 

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