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  #161  
Old 10-20-2009, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Wind
A personality is heavily influenced by memories. If Rand has all the memories of his past lives he is going to be a bit different personality wise than a shepherd from 2 rivers. No question in my mind about that. I would say he doesn't become any less Rand but instead that he becomes more than just Rand.
Today 04:05 PM
How did that work out for Mat? He doesn't have multiple persona's. He is still Mat.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-20-2009 at 06:22 PM.
  #162  
Old 10-20-2009, 06:20 PM
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Rand is not going to cease to exist. Rand is going to continue on as he is in the conglomerate form, but with added memories of past lives, and added sense of his eternal role. He doesn't become a different person in death.

Mat has absolutely nothing to do with it.
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  #163  
Old 10-20-2009, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Rand is not going to cease to exist. Rand is going to continue on as he is in the conglomerate form, but with added memories of past lives, and added sense of his eternal role. He doesn't become a different person in death.
You assume that without a shred of evidence, and RJ against you. But that is not how WoT works per that quote. So your asking for an exception to the rules being made for Rand. I feel breaking the rules of the universe is necessary.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-20-2009 at 06:40 PM.
  #164  
Old 10-21-2009, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
No, what I said was that Birgitte remembers being all her past lives and what the population remembered her as.
Actually, I don't think she really remembered all her past lives. Just a lot more of them than she does now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 28, The Tower of Ghenjei
Impossible to leave? The fellow – Slayer – surely had gone in. Why would he do that if he could not leave? "Hopper said it's dangerous, too. The Tower of Ghenjei? What is it?"
Her eyes widened, and she glanced at Hopper, who still lay stretched out on the grass ignoring her and watching Perrin. "You can talk to wolves? Now that is a thing long lost in legend. So that is how you are here. I should have known. The tower? It is a doorway, archer, to the realms of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn." She said the names as if he should recognize them. When he looked at her blankly, she said, "Did you ever play the game called Snakes and Foxes?"
It seems to me that the "long lost in legend" means that not even she remembers it first hand, though she obviously does remember pretty accurate stories about it: she knows that wolfbrothers can enter TAR.
  #165  
Old 10-22-2009, 12:44 PM
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Q&A for Terez:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Rand is not going to cease to exist.
Okay, we agree Rand will return to live again, after dying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Rand is going to continue on as he is in the conglomerate form, but with added memories of past lives, and added sense of his eternal role.
What do you mean by conglomerate form? Will L.T.T., Moridin and the flash of colors, motions between Mat, Perrin and Rand all still be there AFTER dying once and returning to life???

I conjecture that Rand would be severed from the soul/personality of L.T.T., Moridin AFTER dying the first time.

I have no idea whether Rand will still be the Dragon Reborn nor connected to Perrin, Mat with the colors, motions flashes AFTER dying....

Are you claiming Terez, that Rand will be only a Hero of the Horn type of person AFTER dying? Because I was under the impression that Rand would be totally reborn AFTER dying in a brand new body.

Stages: Alive --> reseal Bore --> merger(?) --> killed somehow --> essence in TAR --> pulled out of TAR by someone aka Birgitte rebirth type --> so the creator gives him a new life, new body, and new privacy with the three women who love him still.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
He doesn't become a different person in death.
What is a "person" here? Same soul? Same body? Same connection to the pattern of the wheel, as Dragon Reborn?

Can one be a reborn soul only in a new body? Is that a different person or the same person, in your view?

Birgitte has had many, many different bodies over the years. Yet she's is still the same person in essence, but generally without the prior lives memories lived. Being pulled out of the TAR short circuited the pattern of the wheel and she retained many of her memories of past lives. Of course, Birgitte is now losing those memories, as she gains new ones in her most recent life.

Why cannot Rand undergo a similar experience here, as Birgitte did?
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  #166  
Old 10-22-2009, 01:37 PM
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Felix, you are starting to make as little sense as vardene!
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  #167  
Old 10-22-2009, 03:17 PM
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Normally reborn individuals lack the memories of their past lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Felix, you are starting to make as little sense as vardene!
Your not answering my queries, only mocking my sincere questions...Terez.
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Last edited by FelixPax; 10-22-2009 at 03:19 PM.
  #168  
Old 10-22-2009, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax
Your not answering my queries, only mocking my sincere questions...Terez.
This is true, but it's because you seem to be vehemently arguing for the very thing Terez is saying.

Rand dies. His soul then returns Tel'aran'rhiod to assume the role of Hero-in-Waiting.

At this point, he has all the memories of his past incarnations, as well as those he just acquired as Rand al'Thor.

Nothing in the books says this won't happen if Rand dies tomorrow.

Once he's in Hero-in-Waiting mode, if he gets called by the Horn he will appear on earth as the invincible Hero of the Horn to save the day.

I believe Terez's theory (and that of many others before and after her, I'm sure) is that Rand has to die in order to become said day-saving Hero.
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  #169  
Old 10-22-2009, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian
This is true, but it's because you seem to be vehemently arguing for the very thing Terez is saying.

Rand dies. His soul then returns Tel'aran'rhiod to assume the role of Hero-in-Waiting.
The origin of my questions arises mostly in regards to the reborn mechanism. I just do not see how rebirth can be made by use of the Horn.

If one can't be harmed, aka the Birgitte of the Horn at Falme, is one truly alive? The Heros of the Horn, seems to be more of the TAR entering the world, than a rebirth. Meaning is the Horn the very opposite of the Twisted Dream Ring, Egwene has? With that ring a person can enter the TAR, while with the Horn a person can call the Heros of the Horn from the TAR into the living world.

Rand won't be reborn if he returns as a Hero of the Horn, just like Birgitte wasn't reborn via the Horn at Falme. It took an action by Moghedien to push Birgitte literally out of the TAR completely into the living world physically in the flesh, for her to be in essence reborn.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian
I believe Terez's theory (and that of many others before and after her, I'm sure) is that Rand has to die in order to become said day-saving Hero.
Yes, I agree with this part...I just don't agree nor think Terez is totally correct about "how" any rebirth of Rand will occur. One of the weaknesses of the Horn rebirth mechanism argument is it lacks of depth into the question of what is Death, what is Life? Whereas, there is quotes to support the Birgitte pulling out of the TAR mechanism already, Birgitte is actually in only one place now--not two.

Stepping into the flesh into the TAR, then means that one literally goes from life to a sort of death...which the Wise Ones thought of as evil (Amys, Bair, Melaine et al to Egwene). Perrin almost or did do this, when he went after Faile in Tear to save her from the Hedgehog trap. Perrin did almost die physically from this too.
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Last edited by FelixPax; 10-22-2009 at 09:04 PM.
  #170  
Old 10-23-2009, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax
Yes, I agree with this part...I just don't agree nor think Terez is totally correct about "how" any rebirth of Rand will occur. One of the weaknesses of the Horn rebirth mechanism argument is it lacks of depth into the question of what is Death, what is Life? Whereas, there is quotes to support the Birgitte pulling out of the TAR mechanism already, Birgitte is actually in only one place now--not two.

Stepping into the flesh into the TAR, then means that one literally goes from life to a sort of death...which the Wise Ones thought of as evil (Amys, Bair, Melaine et al to Egwene). Perrin almost or did do this, when he went after Faile in Tear to save her from the Hedgehog trap. Perrin did almost die physically from this too.
I think you're getting caught up with this idea of "rebirth." Do the prophecies say that Rand has to be reborn in order to save the world? He's going to be reborn by default, because everyone is reborn someday.

The prophecies say he has to die, not be reborn, so what happens after he dies isn't really covered.

If Rand dies, he will live again someday. Nothing says he has to live again immediately, does it?
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  #171  
Old 10-23-2009, 02:08 PM
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I've changed my mind on my Last Battle theory, and it doesn't really have anything to do with anything I read in the book, except for a reiteration of something we already knew (that Nynaeve only has to see a weave once to remember it). Now I think that Nynaeve will rip Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod, because she was there when Moghedien did it, and it was done with the Power, so Nynaeve will remember it.
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  #172  
Old 10-23-2009, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
I've changed my mind on my Last Battle theory, and it doesn't really have anything to do with anything I read in the book, except for a reiteration of something we already knew (that Nynaeve only has to see a weave once to remember it). Now I think that Nynaeve will rip Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod, because she was there when Moghedien did it, and it was done with the Power, so Nynaeve will remember it.
Then both your idea of how things will go down and the Moridin swap idea accounts for how Rand, who is currently barely able to channel and missing and arm and in generally bad battle condition, will be made whole again in a healthy body (Rand is worried about his body not being able to go on much longer also). Both ideas also has a previous "example" from the books. Moghedien ripping out Birgitte from TAR, and Slayer/Luc. I think it is very interesting about these precedents, I think they lend much weight to the threories. And I agree that repeating that Nynaeve only has to see a weave once, is likely a foreshadowing that she will use something she's only seen once.

Who knows, the main elements of the two theories doesn't exclude each other, maybe those parts at least will both happen. Even if your theory come to pass, there is the viewings about the merging with Moridin.
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  #173  
Old 10-23-2009, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Powerslave
Then both your idea of how things will go down and the Moridin swap idea accounts for how Rand, who is currently barely able to channel and missing and arm and in generally bad battle condition, will be made whole again in a healthy body (Rand is worried about his body not being able to go on much longer also).
Yeah, but Rand being in Moridin's body is dumb. His women wouldn't go for it, for one thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Who knows, the main elements of the two theories doesn't exclude each other, maybe those parts at least will both happen. Even if your theory come to pass, there is the viewings about the merging with Moridin.
Yeah, and that is going to happen - I never denied that it will - but Rand's death will save him from it. It won't be permanent, thank the Light!
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  #174  
Old 10-23-2009, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Yeah, but Rand being in Moridin's body is dumb. His women wouldn't go for it, for one thing.
"Dumb", heh. So is ripping Heroes out of TAR. Channelers having that power isn't really thought through I think.

Rand's women love him and they will looove him in whichever body he has. It's called unconditional looove. :P
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  #175  
Old 10-23-2009, 02:47 PM
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You might think the mechanism is lame, but like I said, at least it's not permanently lame!

And screw unconditional love. Rand living the rest of his life in Moridin's body is *puke*. And Moridin's body isn't great either - he's been using the True Power excessively. It's probably in pretty bad shape. And it's not Rand. And it doesn't account for the Nynaeve foreshadowings, while my theory accounts for both sets of foreshadowing/prophecies.
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  #176  
Old 10-23-2009, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
You might think the mechanism is lame, but like I said, at least it's not permanently lame!

...

And it doesn't account for the Nynaeve foreshadowings, while my theory accounts for both sets of foreshadowing/prophecies.

There are a few hints that Min's frequent philosophy reading of Herid Fel books, may actually be connected to Rand's dying and coming back to life again. I assume Min will be reading about, 'reality is an illusion':

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Spring the novel - Moiraine's pov
“Rumor is irrational and had no place here, child,” Meilyn told her firmly, her gaze serene above the teacup balanced on her fingertips. “Now. When Shivena said that reality is illusion, where did she gain insight from Willim and what was her own?”
Death is an illusion, if one's soul is moved from reality to the TAR and later gains a chance to be reborn in another place (reality). Death is a ticket to the TAR for a period time.

I assume this belief system partially explains why the Amayar on the Sea Folk Islands decided to kill themselves as they believed the Time of Illusions had ended, and wanted to all return to the TAR to be reborn later again in a new illusion.


Crisp, I substituted the word "reborn" for the process of what is going to occur to Rand, because of what the Karaethon Cycle prophecy states specifically:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGH book,Chapter 26
"Twice and twice shall he be marked,
twice to live and twice to die.

...

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
I believe to mean that Rand will physical die in this reality, return to the TAR, and then he will be ripped out of the TAR somehow into a new body on the very same day. This will all occur when the sun is up in the sky on the same day.

Two points for dying are I think to make Rand a sane person again, and kill off Moridin among other reasons.
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Last edited by FelixPax; 10-23-2009 at 03:50 PM.
 

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