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  #81  
Old 10-28-2009, 04:54 AM
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I would be let down if LTT was a form of madness and just poof it is gone. What kind of ending is that to madness????
  #82  
Old 10-28-2009, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
Terez; you stil lhaven't responded to my argument.

You only made up, that I define real as seperate people.. And that's a lie.
Quotes and links in the other thread. You have always believed they were separate people, and that is the only thing we have ever really argued about.
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  #83  
Old 10-28-2009, 10:39 AM
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See my other post: you have always interpreted it differently and tried to sheer it away from being real.
I wasn't interested in that, and so haven't followed the discussion for a long time.

As I said before: the faction creeds say it all. That's the essence of things you believe.
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  #84  
Old 10-28-2009, 11:10 AM
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We need Gonzo to finish the books...
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  #85  
Old 10-28-2009, 11:11 AM
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Sare: gonzo couldn't find it yet:P
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  #86  
Old 10-28-2009, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
See my other post: you have always interpreted it differently and tried to sheer it away from being real.
All I ever said about 'real' is that it didn't mean anything. We had to discuss it to figure out what you meant by 'real', and as we discussed it, we discovered that it meant that you believed Lews Therin had his own awareness, and that he and Rand were separate. That has been proven wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
I wasn't interested in that, and so haven't followed the discussion for a long time.
You were interested in it - you repeated over and over again that you thought they were separate. No one EVER disagreed with you about the memories being real. That was never a point of debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
As I said before: the faction creeds say it all. That's the essence of things you believe.
The faction says that the 'voice' was the real Lews Therin. That has been disproved. Rand had the real memories, but the 'voice' was an illusion - they were not two men, and never had been.
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  #87  
Old 10-28-2009, 11:57 AM
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Aagggh...

You really don't understand a word from what I am saying, are you?
I have tried again and again to say what real means, but you just ignore that and want to discuss other things.
And again you say memories being real, and i said voice was the real LTT.

And again you claim that something is proven, while it's still being debated....
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  #88  
Old 10-28-2009, 11:58 AM
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Can we at least confine this debate to one specific thread?

There is a ton of other stuff to discuss in the new book.
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  #89  
Old 10-28-2009, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
It just seems to me that the Construct explanation is that Rand made a concious choice to eliminate a subconcious reaction because his realization was that it was him talking to himself the whole time. That makes zero sense.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, it does make zero sense and it's not even remotely what I'm arguing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav
Can we at least confine this debate to one specific thread?

There is a ton of other stuff to discuss in the new book.
This. A thousand times this.
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  #90  
Old 10-28-2009, 03:40 PM
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Default It's all irrelevant!

I figured that since they were fully integrated this conversation would become irrelevant. I always thought the main point of a LTT is real argument was that if he was real then he could die at TG instead of Rand. They integrated so that no longer seems possible.

However, If people are determined to debate for the sake of debating here is a quick point that I haven't seen mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGS
That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered loves, hundreds of them, thousands of them, streching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.
It appears from this quote that Rand remembers all of his past lives, not just LTT. So why would LTT be the only "real" voice in his head? Wouldn't he have hundreds of them?

This makes me believe that Rand constructed a personality to deal with all these memories until he could accept them as his own. He named that personality LTT because those memories were the most prominent. The same way Brigette remembers her recent lives more clearly than the ancient ones.

I'm sure there are other interpretations though.
  #91  
Old 10-28-2009, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Wind
I figured that since they were fully integrated this conversation would become irrelevant. I always thought the main point of a LTT is real argument was that if he was real then he could die at TG instead of Rand. They integrated so that no longer seems possible.
The 'point' of the debate is more along the lines of how Lews Therin passages should be interpreted, like I said on the non-spoiler thread on General. For instance, one of the early examples is when it appears as though Lews Therin tries to take over Rand's body in Tel'aran'rhiod, while they're fighting Rahvin. Real'ers see that as Lews Therin taking over (or, they did - hopefully at least some of them see it differently now). Constructors see it as, Rand noticed his body was fading, so he tapped Lews Therin's memories of Tel'aran'rhiod to fight it, and subconsciously used Lews Therin's physical features to do it (and, consequently, Rand learned a bit about how to control Tel'aran'rhiod, as we see right after). Then he made the incorrect assumption that Lews Therin was trying to take over.
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  #92  
Old 10-28-2009, 05:37 PM
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It's also important as a characterization into Rand. If LTT was real, Rand is a lot more sane and 'normal', for lack of a better word. If LTT is a construct, it explains better Rand's insanity, why he is so hard, and some of the statements attributed to LTT can be attributed to Rand (like when he rages about killing Taim, for instance). Additionally, it can also help explain why Rand seems so blind to Taim's dreadlordly infiltration of the Black Tower, etc. If you reread the series with this mind-set, many scenes are read very differently.
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  #93  
Old 10-28-2009, 05:41 PM
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Any comments on the fact that Rand apparently has memories from a thousand live now, not just LTT's? Am I misinterpreting this passage? If so why? If not, how will this affect Rand in the next two books?
  #94  
Old 10-28-2009, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Wind
Any comments on the fact that Rand apparently has memories from a thousand live now, not just LTT's? Am I misinterpreting this passage? If so why? If not, how will this affect Rand in the next two books?
I referenced that passage in another thread. I don't think you are wrong as that's how I read it too.
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