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  #81  
Old 11-01-2009, 09:20 PM
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I think it is obvious from the edit time that you edited your post as I was posting. I quoted you from the original post, posted, saw your edit, and included a comment about the other thread you linked within the window where you can edit a post without the edit line showing up. 8:05 for both my post, and your edit - obviously I didn't have time to change anything else but adding the comment about your addition.

So, you're not only an idiot, but a liar as well. Nice.
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  #82  
Old 11-01-2009, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
I think it is obvious from the edit time that you edited your post as I was posting. I quoted you from the original post, posted, saw your edit, and included a comment about the other thread you linked within the window where you can edit a post without the edit line showing up. 8:05 for both my post, and your edit - obviously I didn't have time to change anything else but adding the comment about your addition.

So, you're not only an idiot, but a liar as well. Nice.
Lol.

Why would I reference the poll? You don't even make sense Terez.

Everyone here has seen you and Callandor repeatedly throw the "popularity" card in everyone's face. You even make a whole "faction report" just to officially "debunk" the other side because "most people believe it's debunked."

Now you deny it? So childish.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.
  #83  
Old 11-01-2009, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
Why would I reference the poll? You don't even make sense Terez.
You have reading comprehension issues.

You didn't reference the poll. You said that I had no grasp of what was happening in the book. You said that this is obvious to most people. I referenced the poll because most people obviously do not believe that I have no grasp of what happened in the book, since they agree with me. Then you accused me of making and Argument from Popularity, when in reality I had done no such thing (again, your reading comprehension issues).

THEN, you tried to claim that you had not said any such thing, because you edited your post after I had responded. Now, you seem to have given up on claiming that I made up those words since I made it more clear that the edit times show that it would have been impossible for me to do so. You have shown yourself to anyone paying attention that you are a liar, and that your arguments are confused and desperate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
Everyone here has seen you and Callandor repeatedly throw the "popularity" card in everyone's face. You even make a whole "faction report" just to officially "debunk" the other side because "most people believe it's debunked."
Not because most people believe it's debunked, but because the book debunked it. If there were a significant number of people who believed otherwise, then it might be in question, but since there are only a couple of diehards with horrible arguments making a lot of noise....it's debunked.
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  #84  
Old 11-01-2009, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Not because most people believe it's debunked, but because the book debunked it. If there were a significant number of people who believed otherwise, then it might be in question, but since there are only a couple of diehards with horrible arguments making a lot of noise....it's debunked.
Still, an argument from popularity because you have yet to defend how your statements contradict the book in my thread. You have nothing else.

Edit : I did erase the beginning of this post.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 11-01-2009 at 09:50 PM.
  #85  
Old 11-01-2009, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
Still, an argument from popularity
That's like saying the theory of evolution is an argument from popularity.
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  #86  
Old 11-01-2009, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez
That's like saying the theory of evolution is an argument from popularity.
See. You don't even understand how your logic is false.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.
  #87  
Old 11-01-2009, 09:57 PM
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*sigh*

I give up on this guy...
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  #88  
Old 11-01-2009, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
So, you're not only an idiot, but a liar as well. Nice.
Ok, so you both, obviously don't see eye to eye on this and, guess what, you're not the only ones. Let's leave the name calling to other places, like the Non-WoT board.

Constructors, you feel that your point has been proven, that's wonderful. I'm happy for you. That doesn't mean you have to force everyone to accept your view point. It's arrogent and conceited. People are allowed to have different view points, different interpretations and just because you disagree is no reason for any of these attacks.

One-Soulers, I haven't been following this too much, so I'm not up on the fine details, but what I can tell from the ESC couch is that you guys are practically violently agreeing. Take a look at Min's reasoning on pages 242-243 of tGS where Rand confesses that he hear's Lews Therin's voice, she says "Rand, he's [i]you. Or you're him." Just a little after she thinks 'Was this how it happened to all of them? Each one assuming that they were really sane, and that it was the other person inside of them who did horrible things?'

The way the insanity is manifesting is in the seperate personality, it happens over and over, not just with Rand, but many others since we've seen Cadsuane and Semirhage both mention it, consider it the symptoms of this particular brand of insanity, it's just how it works.

Regadless of all that, agree, disagree, agree to disagree or whatever, I don't care. Just keep it civil. If you cannot, just leave these threads alone or else I'm sure we'll actually motivate Fearless Leader to come in here and shut this all down.
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  #89  
Old 11-02-2009, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
One-Soulers, I haven't been following this too much, so I'm not up on the fine details, but what I can tell from the ESC couch is that you guys are practically violently agreeing. Take a look at Min's reasoning on pages 242-243 of tGS where Rand confesses that he hear's Lews Therin's voice, she says "Rand, he's [i]you. Or you're him." Just a little after she thinks 'Was this how it happened to all of them? Each one assuming that they were really sane, and that it was the other person inside of them who did horrible things?'

The way the insanity is manifesting is in the seperate personality, it happens over and over, not just with Rand, but many others since we've seen Cadsuane and Semirhage both mention it, consider it the symptoms of this particular brand of insanity, it's just how it works.
Right. Up until Rand Cleansed the Taint.

After that, Rand Soul was able to heal even a Taint brought voice. At least, that is what I'm suggesting.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 11-02-2009 at 12:16 AM.
  #90  
Old 11-02-2009, 12:14 AM
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SBX, sorry, but I refuse to be civil to someone who is accusing me of making up words that he said when all I did was quote him. He went back and edited his post and then tried to pretend he didn't say it. I think it's well within my rights to get angry about that.
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  #91  
Old 11-02-2009, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
SBX, sorry, but I refuse to be civil to someone who is accusing me of making up words that he said when all I did was quote him. He went back and edited his post and then tried to pretend he didn't say it. I think it's well within my rights to get angry about that.
I'm sorry you saw that version of what i wanted to say. I didn't even realize I wrote it because I editted it so fast. It wasn't my intention because I wanted to reference the other thread. But alas, I should have realized you would be smashing the refresh button.

Moving on...
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 11-02-2009 at 12:31 AM.
  #92  
Old 11-02-2009, 01:05 AM
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Smashing the refresh button? It took me an hour to get through the TGS forum tonight - I see new posts as soon as they come up because I've just left another thread. I don't sit here smashing refresh, lol. When I'm done, I go to the 'who's online' page because it refreshes automatically, and I can just glance at it every now and then while I'm doing other stuff and see if anything interesting is happening.

But yeah...moving on...
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  #93  
Old 11-02-2009, 07:47 AM
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you guys can argue if you like. It seems to me though that if you do wind up with a lack of civility, Tam is the one that cares about it. I'm just trying to suggest that if you want this thread to remain open, or even existent, that you keep it civil, otherwise, it will be gone.
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  #94  
Old 11-02-2009, 08:03 AM
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I'm not going to get into this debate, just give a reminder that threads or posts like these in the past have been balefired. Also to point out that from some of us on the Couch you guys are looking like you're arguing practically the same thing. Last night I equated it in my head to the Anglican Church and the Roman Catholic Church. Nearly identical, only with a few minor differences to separate the two.

And that's all I'll say on the matter.
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  #95  
Old 11-02-2009, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
We have been giving you that evidence for years, and now you're going to pretend like you've never heard it before?
SOrry, I meant ironclad evidence from TGS. Which you attempted to provide so thanks.


Quote:
As for the end game, Rand couldn't accept Lews Therin's memories because of the Kinslaying. That is why the useful information generally comes directly to Rand, and the ranting about Ilyena is an aspect of the 'voice' - Rand was suppressing that memory more than any others, and he absolutely refused to identify with it.

When he tries to kill Tam, he has no choice but to face it, because what he was about to do was worse than what he did in his past life, because at least then he could claim taint insanity.

So, he realizes that in Ebou Dar, and again decides to take his own life, because he could not face what he had done in the past, and that he had almost done it again. He even goes to the same place where he killed himself before. But this time, instead of going through with it, he faces the past, and finds a reason to live. Now, the main trauma that has been preventing Rand from accepting those memories is GONE. Integration finally happens.

It's pretty damn ironclad.
So what happened to Rand between the time he snapped with Semirhage and the time he integrated LTT into himself? He acknowledged and seemed to accept Ilyena's death as his own memory in the scene with Min. But instead of integrating, LTT didn't go anywhere. I'm not arguing this as evidence of anything, just trying to figure that out.

It's interesting that the Voice is ultimately what gives Rand his reason to live. That is, "LTT" realizes the answer to Tam's question before "Rand" does. The insane voice finally accepts that it doesn't actually want to die.

In your opinion, is this just Rand overcoming the death-wishes of his memories?

Lastly, the reason I asked about the "evidence" is that I still don't see how this book cements that the Voice is a product of suppressed emotions. Even with everything that happened in this book, it still seems to me that Rand could have just integrated that LTT facet of his personality without ever having "constructed" it psychologically. His trauma and emotional instability were by-products of not being integrated--not the other way around. That's why in Chapter 15, when he visits Moridin in Tel'aran'rhiod (or somewhere like it), the Voice is gone, and Rand feels better than ever.
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  #96  
Old 11-02-2009, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian
His trauma and emotional instability were by-products of not being integrated--not the other way around.
That's a real chicken-and-egg question, isn't it?
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  #97  
Old 11-02-2009, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian
So what happened to Rand between the time he snapped with Semirhage and the time he integrated LTT into himself? He acknowledged and seemed to accept Ilyena's death as his own memory in the scene with Min.
lol, he didn't acknowledge it at all. We can see it slipping out, but this is right on the heels of him insisting that Lews Therin is another man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
But instead of integrating, LTT didn't go anywhere. I'm not arguing this as evidence of anything, just trying to figure that out.
Well, like I said, he had to actually face it (which he has been avoiding for 3000+ years) and find a reason to live before he could integrate. You can see a progression over this book, with Rand getting closer and closer to admitting that Rand=Lews Therin, but he doesn't finally stare it in the face until the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
It's interesting that the Voice is ultimately what gives Rand his reason to live. That is, "LTT" realizes the answer to Tam's question before "Rand" does. The insane voice finally accepts that it doesn't actually want to die.
They came to the conclusion together, and it wasn't until 'Rand' had the thought that the integration happened ('Rand' was the one that realized the answer to Tam's question, not 'Lews Therin'):

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ/BS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 50 - Veins of Gold

Why do we live again? Lews Therin asked, suddenly. His voice was crisp and distinct.

Yes, Rand said, pleading. Tell me. Why?

Maybe . . . Lews Therin said, shocking lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? Could it be . . . Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance.

...

Why, Rand? Why do you go to battle? What is the point?

Why?

All was still. Even with the tempest, the winds, the crashes of thunder. All was still.

Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again.

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lied, mistakes made, love changing everything.
He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. HE remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
In your opinion, is this just Rand overcoming the death-wishes of his memories?
I think that's the biggest problem that he had, certainly. It was what was keeping him from having all of Lews Therin's memories. The voice was what was allowing him to suppress all of his emotions, so that they festered inside, and of course that's another huge theme in this book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
Lastly, the reason I asked about the "evidence" is that I still don't see how this book cements that the Voice is a product of suppressed emotions.
If you want evidence of how the voice was created, and how it always expressed Rand's suppressed emotions, look in the earlier books. The resolution just confirmed everything the constructors have always known - that Rand's refusal to accept the memories was what gave him the illusion that Lews Therin is another man. Case in point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 43 - This Place, This Day

A memory slid across the emptiness. Not his; Lews Therin's. For once he did not care. In an instant he channeled, and a ball of fire enveloped the top of a hill nearly five miles away, a churning mass of pale yellow flame. When it faded, he could see without the looking glass that the hill was lower now, and black at the crest, seemingly melted. Between the three of them, there might be no need for the clans to fight Couladin at all.

Ilyena, my love, forgive me!

The Void trembled; for an instant Rand teetered on the brink of destruction. Waves of the One Power crashed through him in a froth of fear; the taint seemed to solidify around his heart, a reeking stone.

Clutching the rail until his knuckles ached, he forced himself back to calmness, forced the emptiness to hold. Thereafter he refused to listen to the thoughts in his head. Instead he concentrated everything on channeling, on methodically searing one hill after another.

He's never really had a problem with the useful memories. Just the painful ones. Here, you can even see him forcibly suppressing the memories (not that that's uncommon) because of that one Ilyena memory (the emotions of which Rand felt quite strongly), and later in the battle when he's delirious, the memories start pouring forth again, while he doesn't have the conscious control over his mind that is required to suppress those memories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
Even with everything that happened in this book, it still seems to me that Rand could have just integrated that LTT facet of his personality without ever having "constructed" it psychologically.
In some vague, undetermined way, maybe. The kind of thing that can only happen in a fantasy series. But that explanation is just willful ignorance of what has actually been going on all this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
His trauma and emotional instability were by-products of not being integrated--not the other way around. That's why in Chapter 15, when he visits Moridin in Tel'aran'rhiod (or somewhere like it), the Voice is gone, and Rand feels better than ever.
The voice was a product of confusion denial more than trauma and emotional instability. We've always said that the voice was subconsciously created by Rand as a means of disassociating himself from the memories, but that it came with its own price, and ended up driving him even crazier. That's the danger of allowing your subconscious to try to fix your problems.
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