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  #1  
Old 11-02-2009, 02:58 AM
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Default Is ******* a Darkfriend?

Meaning Sorilea, or Bair. Only Sorilea and Bair saw where Cadsuane kept the Domination Band. It could have been Bair that betrayed them, and Shaidar Haran that nullified the weaves to fetch it. But attention was drawn earlier in the chapter to the fact that Sorilea picked up on Semirhage's bonds and blinders without even having seen them woven - Cadsuane thinks that she is a very quick learner. And Cadsuane only showed Sorilea the box to repay the debt from Sorilea showing her how to weave a gateway:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 12 - New Alliances

"Most men will take what is offered, if it seems attractive and pleasant," Sorilea said. "Once, we thought of Rand al’Thor so. Unfortunately, it is too late to change the path we walk. Now, he suspects whatever is offered freely. Now, if I wanted him to accept something, I would pretend I did not want him to have it. If I wanted to stay close to him, I would pretend indifference to whether I ever saw him again." Once more, those eyes focused on Cadsuane, green augers. Not trying to see what lay inside her head. The woman knew. Some, at least. Enough, or too much.

Still, Cadsuane felt a rising thrill of possibility. If she had had any doubts that Sorilea wanted to feel her out, they were gone. And you did not feel out someone in this manner unless you hoped for some agreement. "Do you believe a man must be hard?" she asked. She was taking a chance. "Or strong?" By her tone, she left no doubt she saw a difference.

Again Sorilea touched the tray; the smallest of smiles might have quirked her lips for an instant. Or not. "Most men see the two as one and the same, Cadsuane Melaidhrin. Strong endures; hard shatters."

Cadsuane drew breath. A chance she would have scoured anyone else for taking. But she was not anyone else, and sometimes chances had to be taken. "The boy confuses them," she said. "He needs to be strong, and makes himself harder. Too hard, already, and he will not stop until he is stopped. He has forgotten how to laugh except in bitterness; there are no tears left in him. Unless he finds laughter and tears again, the world faces disaster. He must learn that even the Dragon Reborn is flesh. If he goes to Tarmon Gai’don as he is, even his victory may be as dark as his defeat."

Sorilea listened intently, and kept silent even after Cadsuane finished. Those green eyes studied her. "Your Dragon Reborn and your Last Battle are not in our prophecies," Sorilea said at last. "We have tried to make Rand al’Thor know his blood, but I fear he sees us as only another spear. If one spear breaks in your hand, you do not pause to mourn before taking up another. Perhaps you and I aim at targets not too far apart."

"Perhaps we do," Cadsuane said cautiously. Targets even a hand apart might be not at all alike.

Abruptly, the glow of saidar surrounded the leather-faced woman. She was weak enough to make Daigian look at least moderately strong. But then, Sorilea’s strength did not lie in the Power. "There is a thing you may find useful," she said. "I cannot make it work, but I can weave the flows to show you." She did just that, laying feeble skeins that fell into place and melted, too poor to do what they were intended for. "It is called Traveling," Sorilea said.

This time, Cadsuane’s jaw dropped. Alanna and Kiruna and the rest denied teaching the Wise Ones how to link, or a number of other skills they suddenly seemed to have, and Cadsuane had assumed the Aiel had managed to wring them out of the sisters held in the tents. But this was...

Impossible, she would have said, yet she did not believe Sorilea was lying. She could hardly wait to try the weave herself. Not that it was of much use immediately. Even if she knew exactly where the wretched boy was, she had to make him come to her. Sorilea was right about that. "A very great gift," she said slowly. "I have nothing I can give you to compare."

This time, there was no doubt of the brief smile that flashed across Sorilea’s lips. She knew very well that Cadsuane was in her debt. Taking up the heavy golden pitcher with both hands, she carefully filled the small white cups. With plain water. She did not spill a drop.

"I offer you water oath," she said solemnly, picking up one of the cups. "By this, we are bound as one, to teach Rand al’Thor laughter and tears." She sipped, and Cadsuane imitated her.

"We are bound as one." And if their targets turned out not to be the same at all? She did not underestimate Sorilea as ally or opponent, but Cadsuane knew which target had to be struck, at any cost.
So, is it Sorilea, or is she the red herring? We've had one short and rather unrevealing point of view from Sorilea, and none from Bair.

Why would Sorilea call in her debt just to see the Domination Band?

Incidentally, the first half of this chapter is Graendal, meeting Cyndane, Moghedien, and Shaidar Haran, and the icon is the square with the serpent weaving in and out of it.
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  #2  
Old 11-02-2009, 03:27 AM
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I immediately assumed that it was Elza who used the domination band with Semi who broke into the box. I never thought to think back to how she knew of the box's location. I can't remember whether or not the Elza was one with the knowledge of Cadsuane's hiding place.

I also had a second thought of SH coming and using his power to dissipate weaves to get to them and bring word to Elza to make her move to free Semi. But this is more wild imagination of late night reading than anything based upon fact. The main reason I thought of this was Cadsuane's pure shock at the box being broken into. Removing Cadsuane while freeing Semi and causing Rand/LTT pain could be important enough to warrant a visit from the Hand of the DO.

On the quote about Sorilea smiling I think that is more RJ showing us how Cadsuane and Sorilea match up against one another. Cadsuane mentions her as being her only "equal" she has met.

With that fact and the survival of the Aiel on depending on Rand. I believe Sorilea would consider calling in that favor to see the weapon that could destroy Rand (and therefore the Aiel remnant) a fair trade.
  #3  
Old 11-02-2009, 03:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calharn
I immediately assumed that it was Elza who used the domination band with Semi who broke into the box. I never thought to think back to how she knew of the box's location. I can't remember whether or not the Elza was one with the knowledge of Cadsuane's hiding place.
Nobody knew where it was. It was Cadsuane's secret, only shared with Sorilea and Bair.
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  #4  
Old 11-02-2009, 03:56 AM
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I'd have to re-read the passage, but my gutfeeling was that it was Shaidar Haran who must have somehow found out where it was. That guy knows everything anyway..
Sorilea never struck me as a darkfriend, and neither did Bair. The scene with Semirhage, to me, confirmed that feeling.
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  #5  
Old 11-02-2009, 03:58 AM
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That was my gut feeling as well, but this is a big discussion over at 13th depository right now, so I figured I'd bring it here. The Sorilea idea does have merits, despite her appearing to be on the right team. Bair....there's nothing to support it, but nothing to really contradict the idea, either.
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Old 11-02-2009, 04:06 AM
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The main reason I don't think either of them are darkfriends is their very strong sense of honour.
And the fact that it said in one of the earlier Aiel chapters (before that Aiel DF tries to kill Mat, I think), that DFs amongst Aiel are rare.
Past actions of the two wise ones don't really speak for either of them being darkfriends, either.
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Old 11-02-2009, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaiya Sedai
The main reason I don't think either of them are darkfriends is their very strong sense of honour.
Melindhra had a strong sense of honor as well. I think all Aiel probably do, except the Shaido, lol...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaiya
And the fact that it said in one of the earlier Aiel chapters (before that Aiel DF tries to kill Mat, I think), that DFs amongst Aiel are rare.
I don't recall that, and I tried to find it without any luck. I remember that Darkfriends are rare among the sul'dam (perhaps because it is one of the highest positions in society, so there's no incentive to try to get higher because there is no possibility for sul'dam to do anything differently), and we also have the assumption that there are no Darkfriends among the Kin because the Black Ajah was unaware of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaiya
Past actions of the two wise ones don't really speak for either of them being darkfriends, either.
I don't know that they really speak against. We've had Darkfriends before that seemed like good people until we got to know them better.
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  #8  
Old 11-02-2009, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calharn
I immediately assumed that it was Elza who used the domination band with Semi who broke into the box. I never thought to think back to how she knew of the box's location. I can't remember whether or not the Elza was one with the knowledge of Cadsuane's hiding place.
As I read, I assumed that Elza had spied on Cadsuane and learned where she put the domination band. Semirhage would have no trouble removing Cadsuance's weaves unless they were inverted... which I don't recall.

But at the time of reading I did have a twinge of "it's awfully suspicious that Sorilea and Bair just asked Cadsuane to tell them where it was".
  #9  
Old 11-02-2009, 04:34 AM
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Yes, that's the strangest part about it. And it was Sorilea that asked, and it was clear from the scene that she was calling in her debt for teaching Cadsuane. A very strange thing to call it in for.

That being said, it's really hard to see her as a Darkfriend.
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  #10  
Old 11-02-2009, 04:44 AM
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I don't like this idea. I now want to transfer that dislike to you Terez, for making me think it is likely. you are mean. I do think you're wrong though.

I assumed that it was SH who got the DB, he probly walked into Casduane's room, sensed the evil of the DB, turned on his anti-magic field and then opened the box. Or he could've searched the trunk first, it's not like she had so many hiding spots.

I don't think Sorilea was so much calling in her favor as just expecting to be obeyed. did i miss anything?
  #11  
Old 11-02-2009, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Bloodpath
I do think you're wrong though.
About what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LB
I don't think Sorilea was so much calling in her favor as just expecting to be obeyed. did i miss anything?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ/BS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 14 - A Box Opens

Sorilea did not seem convinced, but she pressed the issue no further. "And the item?" she asked. "May I see it?"

Cadsuane almost snapped a no. But . . . Sorilea had taught Cadsuane Traveling, and incredibly powerful tool. That had been an offering, a hand extended. Cadsuane needed to work with these women, Sorilea most of all. Al'Thor was a bigger project than one woman could handle.
Why even ask to see it?
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  #12  
Old 11-02-2009, 06:06 AM
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Let me apologize, rereading my prior post now it's more offensive than cute.

and I actually meant wrong about either of them being DF's, but you just asked the Q, you didn't assert anything....

As to calling in the favor, it's CS who decides to weigh showing the DB against learning traveling. Yes, Sorilea asks to see it, but she's used to having her curiosity indulged. She could've just wanted to know what to keep an eye out for in case there's another floating around she could be all, "oh no you don't!" instead of, "I wonder why someone would wear such an ugly bracelet or carry such a necklace."
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Melindhra had a strong sense of honor as well. I think all Aiel probably do, except the Shaido, lol...
I like how you contradict yourself there, or maybe you have forgotten that Melindhra was a Shaido that stayed with Rand and Co.

I really do not see that of either of those two, but Sorilea the least. There are any number of ways that Semi could have gotten the bands. However, I think the simplest explanation would be that one of them was a DF.
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:52 AM
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I love it. It'd be very interesting if its true.
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Old 11-02-2009, 10:19 AM
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It might have been common knowledge among the Aes Sedai that Cadsuane had kept a male a'dam close to her. Everyone probably knew that she wanted to test the male a'dam on the Asha'man (she said she had asked Rand about it), like she had tested the a'dam on herself. Everyone knew she had all of the ter'angreal recovered from Semirhage. Even the Wise Ones knew to ask.
So where does she have them? Under her dress? No. In her room is the next place to look. That she stashed Callandor with friends far away, but if Shaidar Haran only knew that she had kept one male a'dam with her, it was enough for him to find it at will I should think. He then gave it to Elza who waited with it for Semirhage.

I do agree though, that Shaidar Haran wouldn't go and initiate this rescue of Semirhage unless he was sure to get hold of The Domination Band. That is, if he was sure that Cadsuane had kept one with her. He doesn't need to know exactly where in the camp it is, that is obvious.

I did not at all get the feeling that Sorilea was calling in the favor gained for showing Travelling. She just thought that it was a small request that should be well within the terms of them working together. Cadsuane recognised that if she denied Sorilea this simple request (which in no way compares to the gift of Travelling of course, which Cadsuane, Sorilea and we know), she would jeapordise her trust/working relationship with Sorilea. It is clear that Sorilea did not want to trade Travelling for seeing the Sad Bracelets alone and call it even. Possibly she expect that seeing them along with a dozen other small favors would compare to Travelling.

If anything I think it is strange that Cadsuane would hesitate showing this to Sorilea, it's such a simple request.

Sorilea and Bair comments on that it is unwise to keep something so dangerous to the Car'a'carn so close to him. And they are right about that. Which is reason enough to ask to see it. Cadsuane wants to test it because it is dangerous and; Bair thinks that testing with it is evil, Sorilea appearantly agrees with Cadsuane that it would be useful to test it on some of the men.
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Old 11-02-2009, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp
I like how you contradict yourself there, or maybe you have forgotten that Melindhra was a Shaido that stayed with Rand and Co.
Yeah, but she wasn't with the Shaido when they started abandoning ji'e'toh, which was the point.
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Old 11-02-2009, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp
I like how you contradict yourself there, or maybe you have forgotten that Melindhra was a Shaido that stayed with Rand and Co.

I really do not see that of either of those two, but Sorilea the least. There are any number of ways that Semi could have gotten the bands. However, I think the simplest explanation would be that one of them was a DF.
She was a Maiden of the Spear. That takes precedence over her clan, sept. Maidens are perhaps the most prickly about their honor in the entire Aiel society. You will recall how the Car'a'carn was, at times, guarded by Maidens of the Shaido -- his enemies. It doesn't matter that Melindhra was Shaido. She was a Maiden. As such, she was honorable.
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Old 11-02-2009, 12:03 PM
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Could Elza have used Compulsion on Sorilea or Bair?
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Old 11-02-2009, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunderwaffe
She was a Maiden. As such, she was honorable.
My point was not that she wasn't honorable, just that he made a contradiction.
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Old 11-02-2009, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
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My point was not that she wasn't honorable, just that he made a contradiction.
Terez is actually a she.
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