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  #101  
Old 10-28-2009, 01:09 PM
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Well, the point that the constructors had all along is that Lews Therin was not actually a separate awareness from Rand, and that the voice expressed Rand's suppressed thoughts and emotions. And yeah, the voice was created because Rand couldn't accept Lews Therin's memories as being his own, for obvious reasons.
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  #102  
Old 10-28-2009, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowbeard
Without having finished TGS yet, here's my take:

-The LTT voice in Rand's head was created by Rand's mind using the LTT-life memories/experiences/etc. I do believe it is a personality separate from Rand's, and that it is equal in all ways to LTT's AoL personality.

So in that sense, the LTT voice IS the real AoL-LTT personality.
Good to hear that you think the voice is authentic.
We disagree on how it got there.
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  #103  
Old 10-28-2009, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Well, the point that the constructors had all along is that Lews Therin was not actually a separate awareness from Rand, and that the voice expressed Rand's suppressed thoughts and emotions. And yeah, the voice was created because Rand couldn't accept Lews Therin's memories as being his own, for obvious reasons.
so a big difference is if one believes that the LTT voice was autonomous or not?

i think it's a re-constituted version of the AoL LTT personality, but Rand's base 3rd age personality didn't have control over the voice. Witness Rand trying to talk to it at various times and it fleeing and hiding, it not being willing to respond sometimes, and even when the voice gets control of the one power during the massive trolloc raid in KoD. Rand's 3rd age personality doesn't have conscious control over the LTT voice, so it's autonomous and does its own thing. so i guess it seems to be that the LTT voice is separate from Rand's 3rd age personality.

even RJ said one soul, two personalities. i always took that to be two separate, independent personalities.

if/when rand reintegrates his own personality with the LTT personality, i imagine that will change, but i'm avoiding the spoiler forum for now until i'm done reading the book.
  #104  
Old 10-28-2009, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowbeard
so a big difference is if one believes that the LTT voice was autonomous or not?
Not really. Rand didn't have conscious control over it - it was a subconscious manifestation. However, it reflected Rand's thoughts, Rand's emotions, Rand's intentions, etc. Not those of another sentience. Rand most often got the memories directly, not from the 'voice', so there's little about it that can even be properly associated with Lews Therin.

It's only 'autonomous and does its own thing' in the sense that everyone's subconscious does its own thing - not in the sense of being an independent awareness.
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  #105  
Old 10-28-2009, 02:43 PM
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Yeah but isn't Rand's 3rd age personality ALSO a subconscious manifestation?

When I say "separate/independent", I mean the LTT voice/LTT personality is separate and independent from Rand's 3rd age personality. Both are linked to and manifestations of Rand's base persona/subconsciousness/soul/etc. and are influenced by the life memories/experiences that were used by Rand's mind to create them.
  #106  
Old 10-28-2009, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowbeard
Yeah but isn't Rand's 3rd age personality ALSO a subconscious manifestation?

When I say "separate/independent", I mean the LTT voice/LTT personality is separate and independent from Rand's 3rd age personality. Both are linked to and manifestations of Rand's base persona/subconsciousness/soul/etc. and are influenced by the life memories/experiences that were used by Rand's mind to create them.
Hmm... third party in the debate? Or construct theory in different wordings?
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  #107  
Old 10-28-2009, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
No, not really.


Tell me what's unconvincing about it. I will help you understand it better.
I was referring to that post only, not your argument in general.
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  #108  
Old 10-28-2009, 10:27 PM
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This is a bit off topic, but I thought it was interesting.

I've got a patient who has auditory hallucinations secondary to a mood disorder. However, unlike many others in his situation, he can reliably turn the off the voices just by opening his mouth or by putting himself in a noisy room. It turns out that his hallucinations are originating from his primary auditory cortex, and that other "higher" areas of his brain exert a "top-down" control over his "lower" auditory cortex. So when he prepares to speak (aka, opens his mouth), the voices get suppressed by the higher order speech planning areas. Similarly, when the higher areas of his brain are busy trying to ignore ambient sounds/conversations, they suppress his internal voices as well. All this was supported by functional imaging that we did on the patient.

Who knows, maybe Rand can get rid of LTT by walking around all day with his mouth open.
  #109  
Old 10-28-2009, 11:03 PM
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That's some pretty fascinating stuff, Yuri. Always was my favorite aspect of psychology.
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  #110  
Old 10-30-2009, 01:12 AM
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Yes, I've always wanted to put Rand in a MRI machine. I'd imagine we'd find some pretty interesting stuff, like where those bundles of emotion from bonding are located.
  #111  
Old 10-30-2009, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belazamon
I was referring to that post only, not your argument in general.
Yeah, I know. I can still explain it further, though.
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  #112  
Old 10-30-2009, 05:37 AM
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A couple of weeks ago, I heard a lecture on the subject of people who hear voices. Some of those people had had fMRI scans, and the results were quite interesting.
In ordinary people, language is produced in (amongst other regions) Broca's area, which is located in the left hemisphere of the brain. There is a very similar area in the right hemisphere, but that isn't used for this. However, in the people who hear voices, things are a bit different. If they themselves produce words (speak, write, even think in words), then that is done with Broca's area, which is under conscious control. But the voices they hear seem to originate in the homologous area from the right hemisphere, and that part isn't consciously controlled.
So in that case it really isn't a matter of producing the voices with anything resembling intent (neither conscious nor unconscious), it simply happens, probably as a result of a flaw in their brain. What that flaw could be, and how to solve the problem, was still a matter for ongoing research.

Interestingly, there was a very wide range of types of voices and how troublesome they were.
There was one patient who had only ever had beneficial effects of it. The voices told her to calm down if she got distraught, not to worry over things she couldn't change anyway, that she was protected and so forth. Not all of that might be actual truth, but it did help her cope with her life a lot better than she thought she would have been able to without the voices.
Someone else had episodes, especially when under stress, when the voices became difficult to handle, but after a couple of decades he had learned how to avoid that (usually) and how to switch the voices on at will, and how to switch them off again often too. (Not always, so there was clearly still room for improvement.)
Then there was someone who continuously heard things like "You are worthless. People have died because of you. If you don't kill yourself, more people will die." That must be exceedingly hard to live with. From what we heard, even that patient benefitted from the fMRI scan, because now she could see in real time that the voices were generated in her own brain.
  #113  
Old 10-30-2009, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzo
Then there was someone who continuously heard things like "You are worthless. People have died because of you. If you don't kill yourself, more people will die."
Yeah, I heard about that guy, too. I think his name was... Rand al'Thor. Yeah, that was it.
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  #114  
Old 10-31-2009, 05:25 AM
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This wasn't a guy, it was a girl. Or a woman, by now.
One of the techniques they used to study the phenomenon was that they made the patients speak out loud what they heard the voices telling them. During the lecture, we heard a short piece of a recording of that. It was definitely creepy. The idea of having that sort of thing being said to you day in, day out, with no way to shut it off, for years on end, is rather disturbing.

And, based on what I heard of that particular case, Rand al'Thor has it easy.
  #115  
Old 11-03-2009, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
The word 'because' makes it an explanation - whatever other reasons you tacked on are irrelevant to the fact that 'because it's a fantasy novel' was offered as an explanation.
I agree with Sodas, and in a way it is a valid explanation. Not in the sense of "it's just so" of course, Sodas was quite clear about. But in sense that in WoT-world we have to consider facts that wouldn't be facts outside of a fantasy novel. Like the fact that in WoT-world the reincarnating souls are fact. Souls are at least as much important for person's mental and psychological situation as his nervous system. At least. Unlike in the realworld where psychology became a science only after purging the very term of soul out of it's vocabulary. It's a fantasy novel with the fact of soul set in it, therefore we cannot ignore the importance of the soul as a factor and pretend that person's psychology depends only on the functions of his/her brain. In WoT-world nervous system is a major factor, but far from being the only one. It's very unlikely to be the main factor too. The WoT-world psychology is bound to have different scientifical foundations. It cannot leave the fact of soul out of consideration. As I'm afraid constructivist theory does.

Mental diseases in WoT-world cannot be explained only as realworld's mental diseases. Why? Because if they were all equal to realworld mental diseases, then in the Age of Legends they would all be Healable with the One Power. Virtually everything save death was healable in that time. Save death and mental diseases. Why not mental diseases? Isn't Semirague such an expert about stimulating centres of pain and pleasure and so proud of it, i.e. an expert about how the nervous system work and how to affect it? Wouldn't she have therefore the perfect ability to heal any brain malfuctioning? Wouldn't she have everything neaded to treat the brain-based causes MPS? But no, mental diseases were considered unhealable in her age and their best psychiatrist - Graendal was acting mainly not by OP means but somehow else. Doesn't this point out that at least some mental diseases are NOT caused by malfunctions of nervous system? Especially those cases about hearing voices in AoL, Semirague mentioned, cases she apparently implied had nothing in common with her field (a field that included the nervous system).

Sodas is right about the consciousness without true body in TAR too. One could expect that TAR body wuld "obviously" have a nervous system functioning exactly like in the realworld, only if one also ipmlied that the TAR body would have the full physiology of a normal body, i.e. that it would need eating and defecating, and not because of habit, but because of it's most basic physiological constitution. If a body has no normal physiology, why should it had normal neurology too?

On the other hand there are cases that look too much like MPS, but that are known to be caused by a second soul in the same body. Fain looks like suffering MPS, but Mordeth is not his construct. Slayer is looking like suffering MPS, but neither Luc is Isam's construct, nor Isam Luc's. Doesn't this hint that if something looks like MPS in Rand's case, it doesn't need to be necessary it?

Whatever the soul is, it has a tremendous impact on one's personality. And it creates a personality from scratch with every incarnation without any tidbit about developement between incarnations. The Heroes of the Horn have unvariably repeating in their similarity lives, and about everybody else we have not even the slightest tidbit about any of their lives influencing another one. Strinkingly unlike most if not all realworld doctrines of reincarnation, where invariably the quality of one life determines the next one, in Randland we have nothing like that. This means personalities are not like series of roles of an actor in different plays, but like number of clones from the same DNA. For a soul all it's personalities are peers. Light, explanation is needed even for how the soul manages to run the right personality in every given time! For such a world activation of a personality out of it's time wouldn't be really surprising. It would require nothing more than some malfunctioning of the mechanisms (known as Barriers in some theory of old times) to prevent such mismatch.

I mean, why Rand's subconscious would be even needed to create anything? Everything for a coscious independent personality to be reactivated is already there: memories and experience to build reactions upon, soul to be the platform for the process to run, body to anchor it to the wolrld's events (no need to control this body, if there is input of fresh data that can be processed trough the filter of old experience and believes and prejudices). Even memories form other souls can be vivid enough to cause some reactions to contemporary events, as with Mat's reaction to the Aes Sedai Healing him in tDR. This means that in past memories a personality is stored in such state that it can easily become reacting to new events. Foreign soul's memories would hardly be able to cause a longliving independantly reacting entity, without the foreign sou also in there (as in Mortdeth's case or with recycled Forsaken). But when it's from the same soul, how would the soul know that is picked the wrong personality and experiences set once the memories are unleashed? The soul itself is not a personality, it's only a platform for a number of such.

All this doesn't refute the constructivist theory of course. Callandor and especially Terez made such great and enviable work to make it plausible. But what I said here makes the realer option simpler to happen. Why create something if it's already there?
  #116  
Old 11-03-2009, 02:38 PM
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A very well-written and thoughtful post, O foolish one. (Not sarcasm, just appreciating the irony of your username in this particular instance. ) Arguments like this are why I, at least, do not feel compelled to treat this theory as "proven" or "unproven."

Quote:
Originally Posted by a dragonburned fool
It cannot leave the fact of soul out of consideration. As I'm afraid constructivist theory does.
That said, I do have to nitpick this one part of your post. Construct theory in no way leaves the soul out of consideration - it's the fundamental reason why Rand has the memories in the first place.
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  #117  
Old 11-04-2009, 11:13 AM
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Construct theory in no way leaves the soul out of consideration - it's the fundamental reason why Rand has the memories in the first place
Yes, it does take it into consideration as source of information entries, that places it into line with Eelfinns, Rhuideal glass columns, the old blood effect and who knows what else. But it doesn't take it in consideration when it comes about how consciousness works, despite of the fact, that absolutely nothing can replace the soul as the most fundamental requirement of any sentient life.
  #118  
Old 11-04-2009, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a dragonburned fool
But it doesn't take it in consideration when it comes about how consciousness works, despite of the fact, that absolutely nothing can replace the soul as the most fundamental requirement of any sentient life.
But LTT already has a soul (Rand's), so I don't see the relevance. Unless you'd care to start arguing "two souls."
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