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  #1  
Old 11-03-2009, 02:37 PM
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Lightbulb The Dark One's Strategy

I've been looking at everyone's theories about Rand's use of the True Power, but nothing seems to have been said about how Rand was even able to channel the TP. We know from the books that only the Dark One gives permission to tap into the TP, here's one that I found from Moghedien's POV in ACoS:
Quote:
From A Crown of Swords
Chapter 25: Mindtrap

The strange shield Shaidar Haran had used on her--Myrddraal could not, but it did--the shield was not in evidence, yet she did not consider channeling. The True Power was denied her, of course--that could be drawn only with the Great Lord's blessing--but the Source tantalized, though the glow just beyond sight seemed somehow odd.
So, Rand channeled the True Power. We know this for a fact, although he technically shouldn't be able to. Maybe this is attributable to Rand's odd connection with Moridin, but it doesn't make sense that it should suddenly appear now as he's fighting Semirhage. Why not anytime after the balefire episode in Shadar Logoth?

In fact, I think it's a ploy by the Dark One to tie Rand to himself.
Quote:
From The Gathering Storm
Prologue: What the Storm Means

"Let Semirhage rot," Moridin growled. "Let her see what it is to be the one questioned. Perhaps the Great Lord will find some use for her in the coming weeks, but that is his to determine. Now. Tell me of your preparations."
Moridin tells the remaining Forsaken that Semirhage is to be left to the mercy of Rand's people, but several chapters later, she is released by Shaidar Haran in a supposed "last chance" at redemption.

In the first few books, we saw Ishamael trying to seduce Rand with immortality and demoralizing him with vague threats. As the series progresses, the Shadow battles Rand with brute force to no avail. But wouldn't it make more sense for the Dark One to give Rand a taste of the power that he could use if he allied with the Shadow? What better chance to do this than when Rand would be unable to channel the One Power and subject to the cruelest torturer ever? The only place he would have to turn would be the True Power.
  #2  
Old 11-03-2009, 02:45 PM
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If I recall correctly, Moridin said only the Dark One can save her if he chooses, because Moridin will not allow the Forsaken to assist her.

Shadar Haran to the rescue! Or, as someone else has mentioned, possibly her release and attempt to bind Rand was purposeful (on the part of the DO at least) and the ramifications are yet to be revealed.
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  #3  
Old 11-03-2009, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reTaardad
I've been looking at everyone's theories about Rand's use of the True Power, but nothing seems to have been said about how Rand was even able to channel the TP.
I think it's a good theory. I just assumed he got it due to his connection to Moridin, but this is an interesting theory.
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  #4  
Old 11-03-2009, 03:15 PM
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I'm kind of operating under the assumption that Rand was able to grab the TP through Moridin, but that it's a toehold into Rand's soul that the Dark One will exploit with maximum ruthlessness. With so much emphasis on this bond that no one really understands, I think it's stretching things to postulate that this could have been planned in advance.

And I still don't see the Dark One just suddenly being magically able to grant Rand permission to use the TP one day, wherever he happens to be standing. There's not enough info yet, I know, but I just can't imagine it's as simple as all that.
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Old 11-03-2009, 04:15 PM
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keep in mind that the Dark One very nearly won at the end of this book. Rand was on a balance point, he tipped one way and the world remained and he learned laughter (no tears yet). Had he tipped the other way he would have annihilated the world.
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  #6  
Old 11-03-2009, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belazamon
I'm kind of operating under the assumption that Rand was able to grab the TP through Moridin, but that it's a toehold into Rand's soul that the Dark One will exploit with maximum ruthlessness. With so much emphasis on this bond that no one really understands, I think it's stretching things to postulate that this could have been planned in advance.

And I still don't see the Dark One just suddenly being magically able to grant Rand permission to use the TP one day, wherever he happens to be standing. There's not enough info yet, I know, but I just can't imagine it's as simple as all that.
I think it was planned in advance, personally. I'm not exactly sure of the motive, but it definitely gives the DO a hook.

As for the TP being avialable, all we know for certain is that the Chosen need permission to use it. Could your average channeler who is under enormous stress find the DO's power? After all, Mierin found it first.
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  #7  
Old 11-03-2009, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belazamon
With so much emphasis on this bond that no one really understands, I think it's stretching things to postulate that this could have been planned in advance.
That's the point that I'm making, I think that Rand's tapping into the True Power was done completely around the connection with Moridin and given as an enticement by the Dark One.
  #8  
Old 11-03-2009, 04:30 PM
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Especially when Semi exclaimed that the DO had forsaken her. I don't have the book here at work for the exact quote, but Semi certainly indicated that she thought the DO had betrayed her by granting Rand access to the TP in her last moments of existence.
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  #9  
Old 11-03-2009, 05:13 PM
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I suppose it boils down to either Rand used Moridin almost like Nynaeve used Moggy to draw on the Sourse during the end of LoC or the DO gave it directly to Rand.

I'm leaning towards the first for the following reasons. The forsaken go to the bore because that's where they can sense the DO. That suggests to me that unless one lets the DO attatch himself to you, you can't actually sense him or the TP unless you are at SG.

I supose the DO could be attatched to Rand via Moridin but that seems a bit forced. Surely the TP would have to go through the attatchment which is Moridin.
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Old 11-04-2009, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reTaardad
That's the point that I'm making, I think that Rand's tapping into the True Power was done completely around the connection with Moridin and given as an enticement by the Dark One.
See, that's the part I'm quite unsure of. Way I see it, Rand and Moridin are kind of "overlapping" in a lot of ways. Because of this, I figure when Rand grabbed the True Power, the DO may've just assumed it was Moridin doing so (since he's the only one with permission currently) and said "sure, there you go buddy, have some TP." Surprise!

I'm guessing, of course, that this little quandary will be solved the next time we see Moridin. Major bummer that the last time we saw him was seven chapters previously.
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  #11  
Old 11-04-2009, 03:07 AM
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My why was wrong, but there's a decent discussion of what and how.

Also, there's this rather well-discussed quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ, Budapest 2003
Q: What happens when Rand and Asmodean have this conflict and ...
Q1: ... and Rand severs his ties with the Dark One ...
Q2: ... and Rand severs some black ties. Isn't that ...
RJ: That was cutting off his protection from the Taint and also cut off his ability, it was not like stilling them. It was cutting the ties that, most important to him, protected him from the Taint on saidin, so he could draw saidin all he wanted to and never worry about the Taint. But it was also those ties that represented his ability, or the conduits by which he could draw on the True Power. But it was not his ability to draw, it was not the same thing as stilling or severing, it was more like shielding.
Rand (and everyone else who isn't a Forsaken) are effectively "shielded" from the TP by default, because they don't have black ties (which simultaneously transfer protection from the Taint). Now, the ties are not consistently visualized, so for all we know Rand could have had them in tGS, but it seems like it would take some kind of formal ritual/oath to obtain them (e.g., going to the Pit of Doom and swearing your allegiance to the DO). After all, the DO is a paranoid creature as RJ has stated before--he/she wouldn't go around granting access to the TP without some strong assurances.

It's not proof, but it makes Rand's access to the TP less likely from the DO directly.

I tend to lean towards the Moridin connection as his conduit to the TP. Along with a proper soul, the ability to channel has a definite physical component (only certain "suitable" bodies can do so). Clearly both Rand and Moridin show a metaphysical connection that has real physical consequences. The ability to channel, OP or TP, lives in that kind of paradox.

Therefore, I think the DO did not originally intend for Rand to access the TP. However, that doesn't mean the DO won't attempt to exploit it in the future...
  #12  
Old 11-04-2009, 04:01 AM
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LTT screams when rand uses the TP;

Oh Light That's impossible. We can't use it! cast it away!That's dead we hold, death and betrayal. it's HIM.

After the BF LTT says:
What have you done? Oh light. Better to have killed again than to do this... Oh light. We are doomed.

I assume with the kill again, LTT means the killing of Ilyena and his kin
Remember, LTT and Rand are truely horrified by the kinslaying.

So this must be uber bad in their book. They would not have willingly chosen this action. But they did. I do believe this was a move orchestrated by the DO. He did send his Hand to free Semi. He could have had SH transport them SG. But SH was back in the shade again. This smells as a typical setup to use Semi
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Old 11-04-2009, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reTaardad
In fact, I think it's a ploy by the Dark One to tie Rand to himself.

Moridin tells the remaining Forsaken that Semirhage is to be left to the mercy of Rand's people, but several chapters later, she is released by Shaidar Haran in a supposed "last chance" at redemption.
Agreed, it was a setup planned in advance by the Dark One using Shaidar Haran. Just another step in the original plan of blackening Rand's heart, so to get him to turn to the Shadow and/or destroy himself if not.

Much earlier at the beginning of the series Shaidar Haran pulled off a similar plan in Fal Dara in freeing Padan Fain and the taking of the Horn. Part of that plan had Ishamael and Lanfear trying turn Rand to the Shadow and finding him a teacher, during the tGH book.


Quote:
Originally Posted by reTaardad
But wouldn't it make more sense for the Dark One to give Rand a taste of the power that he could use if he allied with the Shadow? What better chance to do this than when Rand would be unable to channel the One Power and subject to the cruelest torturer ever? The only place he would have to turn would be the True Power.
And torture by his own hand pointed towards one of three individuals, who he loves. Yes, its a very cruel plan by the Dark One, but I doubt it was an accident at all. Nor do I see the Nae'blis is ordering around Shaidar Haran around at all. This plan came from the very top, regardless if the Dark One used Moridin's connection to Rand or directly granted Rand separate access to the True Power.
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Last edited by FelixPax; 11-04-2009 at 04:34 AM.
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri33
Rand (and everyone else who isn't a Forsaken) are effectively "shielded" from the TP by default, because they don't have black ties (which simultaneously transfer protection from the Taint). Now, the ties are not consistently visualized, so for all we know Rand could have had them in tGS, but it seems like it would take some kind of formal ritual/oath to obtain them (e.g., going to the Pit of Doom and swearing your allegiance to the DO). After all, the DO is a paranoid creature as RJ has stated before--he/she wouldn't go around granting access to the TP without some strong assurances.
But Jordan said, as seen here:
Quote:

Dunwoody, Georgia; 9 October, 1996

Q: New dreadlords? Via TP? What are limits of TP? When did we see it used before?

A: Access to the TP is a matter of wanting it and the dark one letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to EotW we saw TP to heal insanity. The OP can not be used to heal insanity. TP used at SG will fry you instantly.
It seems pretty explicit that Rand would not need the black cords.
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:30 AM
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It seems clear to me that Moridin and SH thought up a great plan to get their hooks into Rand via the True Power. Semi was used as a patsy simply to get Rand to use the TP and thus taint his future actions.
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Old 11-04-2009, 10:38 AM
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I am not sure the Shadow had planned it in that much detail. After all, Rand only used the TP because he was made to hurt Min, and that only happened because she had annoyed Semirage by once again drawing blood.

It seems more reasonable to assume that the Shadow had really wanted to get Rand dragged in chains to the Pit of Doom. What actually did happen wasn't according to plan, but it probably was all right as far as the DO was concerned.
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Old 11-04-2009, 12:25 PM
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Gentlemen, shall we start up our faction-starting engines here?
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