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  #61  
Old 11-09-2009, 08:13 PM
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Default Leilwin, Tylee each on the other side of the Division of the Westlands

Marie Curie 7: I agree with your interpretation almost totally here, except for one set of points:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7
Yeah, I agree, Mort. You've stated the reasons that I don't believe that the dream of Egwene and the Seanchan woman on the mountain has been fulfilled. In fact, after the prologue was released, we had a discussion about the dream in this thread even before the outcome of the Seanchan attack was known, and I argued the same thing there.

On the surface, it seems possible to correlate the mountain in the dream with Egwene's struggle to become Amyrlin of a united Tower. However, beyond that the correlation between the dream and the events of the Seanchan attack breaks down. The Seanchan woman in the dream offers to help Egwene, whereas the Seanchan attack just provided a catalyst that eventually led to Egwene being raised Amyrlin of the united Tower.
Good points here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7
]In the dream, the Seanchan woman not only offers to help Egwene, but she offers help to reach a goal that they both seem to want to reach ('we can reach the top together'). I can't see the Seanchan caring one bit about whether or not Egwene gained the Amyrlin seat of the united Tower. If the dream is supposed to be correlated with the Seanchan attack, then the Seanchan woman should have grabbed Egwene and booted her up the side of the mountain or something...
There is one Seanchan who may indeed care about Egwene's future: Leilwin Shipless, who's longtime friend she freed from an adam, and who helped her escape from Ebou Bar with Mat. The very institution which likely will save Bethamin Zeami life after the adam, is now led by Egwene al'Vere. That friendship to Bethamin was importantly enough to Leilwin, to force her to flee from the Seanchan. Bethamin and Leilwin loyalty is towards the White Tower in full.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tGS book, Chapter "Legends" pg 532 - Mat's pov
"My ship is being driven by different winds now, Master Cauthon," Leilwin said simply, turning from him and glancing at Bayle.
Leilwin's marriage to Bayle Domon is another major reason, for her change to the Aes Sedai side. As is her new friendship to Aludra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7
So, in my opinion, the dream is not fulfilled. The struggle up the mountain seems to me to have to correspond with something that it is important to both Egwene/Aes Sedai and the Seanchan, like working together for the Last Battle, for example.
Here we have a parting of the ways, as the evidence points towards Leilwin Shipless, not Tylee helping Egwene/White Tower. Tylee role is important, yet Tylee remains a loyal Seanchan Low Blood officer while Leilwin Shipless is loyal to her friends Bethamin Zeami, Seta Zarbey, Aludra, Juilin and his her husband Bayle Domon. All of Leilwin's friends hate the adam and the enslavement of individuals forcefully, those beliefs are in parallel to Egwene's very own.

There is one more reason why Leilwin is likely to be connected to Egwene in the future, her own husband's knowledge about the Sea Folk belief systems and intentions. There is an entry in the eWoT website, mentioning that Bayle Domon, "notes that the Sea Folk only seem interested in searching for their Coramoor" (tEoW book, Chapter 24). Egwene currently seems to lack knowledge about the Sea Folk to the degree, which Bayle Domon has as a former commercial competitor has.

Bayle Domon might just be the very first character to mention the Sea Folk in the whole series (TEotW,Chapter 24) , unless you count the New Spring book. I doubt that Bayle's role with the Sea Folk was an accident here.

The couple of Leilwin and Bayle each have unique knowledge about the Seanchan and Sea Folk societies, gained from a different vantage point than the captured Sul'dam, Damane have because of their past jobs. Only Talaan likely has information which may rival what Bayle has about the Sea Folk clans, but Talaan's information would be different too because of her extended families positions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7
This recalled to me Egwene's dream of the Seanchan woman offering help - Tylee is one of the few Seanchan who realizes that they should be working together with the Randlanders rather than against them. So perhaps Tylee has a role to play in bringing Seanchan and Randland together. In fact, later in TGS Tylee spoke out to Tuon about making allies with the Randlanders:
Yes, Tylee should have a role to play but why not on the Seanchan Empire's side of the equation? Tylee is a loyalist to the Empress, while Leilwin is a traitor in Tuon's own view.

We know Perrin is in Ghealdan from Cadsuane's comments in tGS, so why wouldn't Tylee have a role to play in the future with engagements with Perrin again in Ghealdan? Perrin did say Ghealdan going to remain free of the Seanchan Empire. Tylee knew about Two Rivers being a tough place to attack in the KoD book, as well. The Seanchan are already at the borders of both Two Rivers and Ghealdan, as of tGS.


Lastly, Leilwin wears a sword in the very same manner as the Seanchan woman in Egwene's Dream on that mountain side; while Tylee doesn't wear her sword in this manner that of know of.
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Last edited by FelixPax; 11-09-2009 at 08:17 PM.
  #62  
Old 11-09-2009, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie
So, in my opinion, the dream is not fulfilled. The struggle up the mountain seems to me to have to correspond with something that it is important to both Egwene/Aes Sedai and the Seanchan, like working together for the Last Battle, for example.
You reasoning against the WT attack fulfilling the dream is quite strong, but the alternative you propose, or others similar to it (controlling Rand, subduing the BT, etc.) also have a problem as well. The full passage, which you didn't quote, is well known to all of us:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
CoT, In the Night:
She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.
Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well have been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.
Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawl*ing accent.
Egwene pushed the dream away as she would have a viper. She felt her body thrash, heard herself groan in her sleep, but for a moment she could do nothing. She had dreamed of the Seanchan before, of a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her. No! They had put a leash on her, made her damane. She would as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan! A very long time passed before she could address herself to calming her sleeping body. Or maybe it only seemed a long time. Not a Seanchan; never that!
The problem with things like cooperation for the Last Battle, or even conspiring to influence Rand, is that this represents a goal/struggle of the WT institution as a whole, and not Egwene herself. The entire dream is very personal, including the small amount of Egwene's own interpretation of it, which we know to be just as valid as the dream itself.

Given that the very personal struggle of Egwene becoming the Amrylin of the unified WT is over, the question is, what more is there for Egwene as an individual to struggle through? It seems like just about everything left for Egwene to do will largely be in her role as the representative of the WT, and her personal motivations will likely mirror the WT's motivations. The only truly personal struggle left at this point that I can think of is resolving her issues with Gawyn, but I highly doubt a Seanchan (or Seanchan army) will be involved with that, and it certainly doesn't match the "cliff" in the dream.
  #63  
Old 11-09-2009, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri33
You reasoning against the WT attack fulfilling the dream is quite strong, but the alternative you propose, or others similar to it (controlling Rand, subduing the BT, etc.) also have a problem as well. The full passage, which you didn't quote, is well known to all of us:

...

The problem with things like cooperation for the Last Battle, or even conspiring to influence Rand, is that this represents a goal/struggle of the WT institution as a whole, and not Egwene herself. The entire dream is very personal, including the small amount of Egwene's own interpretation of it, which we know to be just as valid as the dream itself.
If the "entire dream is very personal", then why does it expressly state that the sword is "as solid as stone"?
Do you claim that this particular part is an interpretation only?
Quote:
Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawl*ing accent.
Leilwin's own sigil includes a sword, according eWoT website as well. Just chance?

And there is a mountain in the Black Hills, with a very large unknown item of the Power on its side.
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Last edited by FelixPax; 11-09-2009 at 09:01 PM.
  #64  
Old 11-09-2009, 09:09 PM
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I think you're confusing the concepts of personal and literal.

Edit: Are the TL boards loading really slowly for anyone else right now?
  #65  
Old 11-09-2009, 09:25 PM
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if we want to go by wavy face and solid as stone weapon then a Hero of the Horn makes the most sense. Birgitte has worn countless faces over the aons, but always weilds a silver bow. Amerasu is a Hero of the Horn and wields the Sword of the Sun, a person who's face changes with each new birth but always weilds the sword. It's a perfect fit for the character, but it doesn't fit with the dream since even if Amerasu were spun out immediately after the Battle at Falme, she'd still only be a child...unless of course this dream takes place years in the future.

With the face constantly shifting it's unlikely to be a single person, so it's more likely to be a group of people, in this case the Seanchan in general...and, well, I've been over the rest, so I'll spare us all, me from having to write it again and everyone else from having to read it again.
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  #66  
Old 11-09-2009, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.
Although I believe this has been discussed before, the above is a good description of Dragonmount, something that we have pretty good reason to believe will erupt soon. We also know Egwene has a good ability with earth. I don't know how the Seanchan fit in, though some of their damane have good ability with earth also. I suppose she could also just use an Asha'man. Anyway, just wanted to toss this in.
  #67  
Old 11-10-2009, 12:04 PM
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If not for that wavering face, I would say there is almost no doubt it is Leilwhin. Frankly, she is at this point the only Seanchan who could possibly work with marathe damane who are actively trying to control events/nations (which was the original reason channelers were leashed or the exact situation the adam was created to prevent.)

I think the mountain is just a metaphor for the struggle against the DO in general. The path that Egs tries to take is the only path she's got but it's a sucky path that doesn't even lead straight to the summit. Someone will come along when that path becomes impossible to pursue and is in danger of killing her and show her a more direct way that she could never have taken on her own.

I think the path represents guiding the various forces of the Light, and scaling the mountain directly represents attacking the Shadow militarily.
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  #68  
Old 11-11-2009, 10:18 AM
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The only problem I have with the woman being Leilwhin is that I don't think Leiwhin has shown any inclination to meddle in the affairs of the might.

She tried to take charge of Mat's gang after the escape from Ebou Dar but I think that was more from her not realising that he was actually compitent as a leader.

After that she seems to have settled in for the ride. Her short tenure as a noble seems to have made her hesitate to dabble with control of groups again.

Why then would she head off and try to help Egwene of all people?
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  #69  
Old 11-11-2009, 01:07 PM
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The only way I can see her ending up at the Tower is if she tags along with Mat when he goes to fetch the Horn.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:26 PM
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The fortunes of war are very hard to predict. I agree that the encounter looks unlikely.

I wonder though, whether she will accompany the AS when they leave Mat's band.... She said that her sails are filled by a different wind now (or however she said it.) I have little doubt she did not mean Mat. She could have meant Domon, but even then, neither Mr. nor Mrs. Bayle are really all that good at keeping their heads down and staying out of trouble. The Pattern likes them.....
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:43 PM
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I believe that ultimatley the Amyrlin's next move should/will be to mobilise the tower into some semblance of military order and begin to actually prepare seriously for the coming conflict.

The devil is in the details and like others before me I believe we will see a large influx of new sisters/accepted now that the Tower is whole again, however I don't think there will be (relatively) much debate or infighting going on due to this as we are all well aware what happens when the Hall stands for War
  #72  
Old 11-12-2009, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax
There is one Seanchan who may indeed care about Egwene's future: Leilwin Shipless, who's longtime friend she freed from an adam, and who helped her escape from Ebou Bar with Mat. The very institution which likely will save Bethamin Zeami life after the adam, is now led by Egwene al'Vere. That friendship to Bethamin was importantly enough to Leilwin, to force her to flee from the Seanchan. Bethamin and Leilwin loyalty is towards the White Tower in full.
Well, that point might provide some motivation for Egeanin/Leilwin to care about Egwene, except for the fact that Egeanin and Bethamin were not lifelong friends - Bethamin made that up. Though Bethamin had known Egeanin for about ten years, Bethamin thought of Egeanin as an acquaintance only:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 20 - Questions of Treason

"You have been asking questions about a ship captain named Egeanin Sarna," he said. "Why?"

Hope faltered with a thud she could feel in her chest. "I was looking for an old friend," she quavered. The best lies always contained as much truth as possible. "We were at Faime together. I don't know whether she survived." Lying to a Seeker was treason, but she had committed her first treason in deserting during the battle at Falme.

"She lives," he said curtly. He sat down on the end of the bed without taking his eyes from her. They were blue, and made her want her cloak back. "She is a hero, a Captain of the Green, and the Lady Egeanin Tamarath, now. Her reward from the High Lady Suroth. She is also here in Ebou Dar. You will renew your friendship with her. And report to me who she sees, where she goes, what she says. Everything."

Bethamin clamped her jaws to keep from laughing hysterically. He was after Egeanin, not her. The Light be praised! The Light be praised in all its infinite mercy! She had only wanted to know if the woman still lived, if she had to take precautions. Egeanin had freed her once, yet in the ten years Bethamin had known her before that, she had been a model of duty. It had always seemed possible she would repent that one aberration no matter the cost to herself, but, wonder of wonders, she had not. And the Seeker was after her, not . . . ! Possibilities reared up in front of her, certainties, and she no longer wanted to laugh. Instead, she licked her lips.

"How . . . ? How can I renew our friendship?" It had never been friendship anyway, merely acquaintance, but it was too late to say that now. "You tell me she's been raised to the Blood. Any overture must come from her." Fear emboldened her. And panicked her as it had at Falme. "Why do you need me to be your Listener? You can take her for questioning any time you decide to." She bit the inside of her cheek to still her tongue. Light, she wanted nothing less than she wanted him to do that. Seekers were the secret hand of the Empress, might she live forever; in the Empress's name, he could put even Suroth to the question, or Tuon herself. True, he would die horribly if it turned out he had been in error, but the risk was small with Egeanin. She was only of the low Blood. If he put Egeanin to the question. . . .
And Egeanin did not flee because of her friendship with Bethamin. She freed Bethamin and then later fled because of her friendship with Elayne and Nynaeve and her desire to understand:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 51 - Revelations in Tanchico

"That was never my intention," Egeanin said stiffly. "All I ever wanted from you was to learn about Aes Sedai. I..." For the first time she seemed hesitant, unsure of herself. Compressing her lips, she looked from Nynaeve to Elayne and shook her head. "You are not as I was taught. The Light be upon me, I... like you."

"You like us." Nynaeve made it sound a crime. "That answers none of my questions."

Egeanin hesitated again, then held her head up, defying them to do their worst. "Sul'dam were left behind at Falme. Some deserted after the disaster. A few of us were sent to bring them back. I only found one, but I discovered that an a'dam would hold her." Seeing Nynaeve's fists tighten, she quickly added, "I let her go last night. I will pay dearly if that is ever discovered, but after talking with you, I could not..." Grimacing, she shook her head. "That is why I stayed with you after Elayne revealed herself. I knew Bethamin was a sul'dam. To discover the a'dam held her, that she could... I had to know, to understand, about women who could channel." She took a deep breath. "What do you mean to do with me?" Her hands, folded on the table, did not tremble.
All that being said, I have not ruled out Egeanin as the Seanchan woman in the dream. There are some points in her favor. I'm out of time right now, though, so I'll perhaps try to respond further tomorrow...
 

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