art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7611

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 12: The Gathering Storm
User Name
Password

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-10-2009, 02:29 PM
Yellowbeard Yellowbeard is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 810
Yellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to behold
Default My own Rand-LTT voice thoughts - It's always been about Ilyena

For anybody who cares what a noob thinks of the LTT voice in Rand's head...

I guess I'm thinking elements of the construct theory are right, elements of the realer theory are right, and then a few things not addressed in either. Hope this doesn't come out too convoluted.

I think the LTT voice was Rand's mind's way of dealing with things he was in denial about. Not very earth shaking idea there.

As AoL-LTT memories came back to Rand, obviously his mind built the LTT personality/voice around those memories. It's my own personal opinion that the LTT personality/voice is representative of the actual LTT personality in the AoL at the moment of LTT's death via suicide.

The LTT voice was quite insane, but I don't think it was taint-induced insanity. I think it was grief induced. LTT had been healed of taint-madness by Ishamael, but he was overcome by grief caused by the realization of the Kinslaying, in particular Ilyena. The fact that he committed suicide shows that he was in a rather irrational state of mind despite having been healed of taint madness. So when Rand's mind began to experience the AoL memories, it "restarted" LTT's personality as a voice in Rand's head.

That voice/personality, I now believe, was always locked into the same state of extreme distress it was in when LTT committed suicide - i.e. it was in extreme grief due to Ilyena's killing. That's why the voice was always so distraught by and focused on Ilyena's death/murder. If the LTT personality was insane due to other reasons, then it would have focused on other things.

I also believe the underlying guilt over Ilyena's murder was hardwired into Rand's subconsciousness all along. That's why Rand kept the list of women that died for him in his head. That's why he couldn't bring himself to harm or kill a woman. Or more accurately, he couldn't bring himself to harm or kill another woman again, and had such a rough time with women being harmed or dying in his service. Such events re-triggered his grief over Ilyena's death on a subconscious level and it just plain hurt him too much to bear.

Subconscious guilt and grief over murdering Ilyena is the underlying component that drove Rand's madness, more than the taint even, I think now. It forced him to distance himself from it by denying he was LTT reborn, and that denial is what re-booted the LTT personality to start with. He couldn't accept that he did it, that he murdered Ilyena, even though it was in a fit of taint induced madness and he had no control over it.

Rand's re-integration of personalities doesn't happen until he makes peace with himself over Ilyena's killing. Looking back now thru all the books, I'm surprised I didn't see it coming. Rand (not the LTT voice) has been carrying his own guilt over Ilyena's killing since he started having AoL memories. He repressed it, built a separate personality to deal with it, and literally drove himself insane via denial and grief. In order to re-integrate, he had to fix the root cause, which his guilt and grief over Ilyena's killing.

He finally came to the realization that even though Ilyena's AoL incarnation was killed, she could be reborn and live again. So she's not really gone forever. He realizes that everything isn't over for her, and never will be (barring some sort of highly unlikely intervention from the DO). After that realization, he is able to finally accept that he genuinely is LTT reborn, that he did commit the Kinslaying, that he did kill Ilyena, AND make peace with himself over doing those things.

In coming to terms with his grief over Ilyena's killing, he fixes the root cause of his split personality, therefore healing his mind and re-intergrating himself.

I think the dicussions about the LTT voice have been missing something. I think the LTT voice and Rand solving that particular issue has always been about Ilyena and whether Rand could come to terms with what he did as his LTT incarnation.
  #2  
Old 11-10-2009, 02:31 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

You are a constructor, though you seem to not want to admit it. I have been harping the Ilyena point for years...
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #3  
Old 11-10-2009, 02:34 PM
Yellowbeard Yellowbeard is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 810
Yellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
You are a constructor, though you seem to not want to admit it. I have been harping the Ilyena point for years...
If it's any consolation then, I don't consider myself a true "realer" either.
  #4  
Old 11-10-2009, 02:40 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

lol, obviously!
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #5  
Old 11-10-2009, 04:28 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Here's a link in-thread to a post where I talk about this in my Lews Therin character analysis. The entire thread is a headache to read, though. That post isn't the only place where I mentioned it, but it is the first post I came across where I really summed up your points (the Battle of Cairhien was really a good exposť for the construct theory).

Consequently, I found my new sig quote in that thread. I crack up every time I read it, and it occurred to me this time that it was quite siggable.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #6  
Old 11-11-2009, 09:43 AM
Yellowbeard Yellowbeard is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 810
Yellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to behold
Default

Not many people seem to care about the Ilyena inspired aspects of Rand's issues, though. It's just not mentioned much in most threads.

I guess the main thing I don't like about 'construct' theory is the title. I don't think LTT is a construct. Constructs are something new, in the context in which it is used.

I think of LTT as more of a re-booted personality instead. Rand's mind turned the LTT personality back on to compartmentalize the things he couldn't accept. I think the LTT personality was always buried in Rand's mind. It never needed to be constructed again.
  #7  
Old 11-11-2009, 10:02 AM
crue crue is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 68
crue is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

This seem to imply that a soul stores each individual personality instead of reintegration at death. I just can't accept that personalities are stored in any fashion.
  #8  
Old 11-11-2009, 10:03 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowbeard
Not many people seem to care about the Ilyena inspired aspects of Rand's issues, though. It's just not mentioned much in most threads.

I guess the main thing I don't like about 'construct' theory is the title. I don't think LTT is a construct. Constructs are something new, in the context in which it is used.
You contradict yourself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelb
As AoL-LTT memories came back to Rand, obviously his mind built the LTT personality/voice around those memories.
To build is to construct. We've always said that the voice was constructed partly using Lews Therin's memories as a basis. Problem is, the 'voice' rarely communicates the memories - those almost always come directly to Rand. The 'voice' expresses thoughts and emotions that Rand is trying to suppress.

In other words, the 'voice' doesn't accurately represent Lews Therin, and never has - the real Lews Therin is Rand. The 'voice' is the parts of himself that he can't deal with.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #9  
Old 11-11-2009, 10:05 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crue
This seem to imply that a soul stores each individual personality instead of reintegration at death. I just can't accept that personalities are stored in any fashion.
Well, we know that the memories are stored - Birgitte is a perfect example of that, and of course, Rand's remembrance of his own past life is an example as well (though obviously it was unnatural for him to start remembering his past life - that's where theories like taint barrier degradation come in). So I'm not sure what you're getting at?
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #10  
Old 11-11-2009, 10:25 AM
crue crue is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 68
crue is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

I know that memories are stored. There are plenty of examples. I take an issue with an entire 'personality' being stored and available for use at a later time.
It always made more sense to me that Rand would construct a personality to deal with the memories, stress, and thoughts of impending insanity instead of LTT popping up, straight from the AOL in his head.
  #11  
Old 11-11-2009, 10:56 AM
Yellowbeard Yellowbeard is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 810
Yellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
You contradict yourself:
more along the lines of my interpretation is evolving. but yeah, it changed overnight after re-reading a few things in TGS.
  #12  
Old 11-11-2009, 01:05 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crue
I know that memories are stored. There are plenty of examples. I take an issue with an entire 'personality' being stored and available for use at a later time.
It always made more sense to me that Rand would construct a personality to deal with the memories, stress, and thoughts of impending insanity instead of LTT popping up, straight from the AOL in his head.
Ah, I see what you're saying now. Yeah, I also have a problem with that idea, more because the idea of two separate sentient beings within one soul makes no sense to me. You might say that 'Lews Therin' was 'conscious' in a sense, but only in the sense of the 'voice' being a manifestation of Rand's subconscious.

@Gelb - that makes sense. Most people have evolving understanding of Lews Therin. Except the die-hard real'ers, of course...
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #13  
Old 11-11-2009, 03:56 PM
Yellowbeard Yellowbeard is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 810
Yellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to beholdYellowbeard is a splendid one to behold
Default

took me a minute to remember the gelb thing. i was like "who?" don't remember your inspiration for that either, and too lazy to look up my noob thread.

i think with any book series, interpretations of the writings evolve. even after the series is complete.

Quote:
Yeah, I also have a problem with that idea, more because the idea of two separate sentient beings within one soul makes no sense to me.
okay, so to play devil's advocate....

in the taint barrier degradation theory, it supposes a barrier between incarnations so that one doesn't remember past lives. that means the memories are stored in the soul. and if a personality is an amalgamation of memories and experiences that are imprinted on the soul, then why would a personality not also be recorded and available for retrieval? why limit it to just memories but nothing else? don't memories include persona in a way since a persons memories and experiences are what constitute the makeup of a personality? if the makeup items are there, why not the personality too?
  #14  
Old 11-11-2009, 04:57 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowbeard
took me a minute to remember the gelb thing. i was like "who?" don't remember your inspiration for that either, and too lazy to look up my noob thread.
'Gelb' is German for 'Yellow', and it's also a WoT character (Floran Gelb), and since I'm lazy and it's easy to type, that be your nickname. Also, Gelb is a wannabe pirate. Or he worked for one anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelb
don't memories include persona in a way since a persons memories and experiences are what constitute the makeup of a personality? if the makeup items are there, why not the personality too?
I contend that the personality is a part of the memories, and I don't think that crue was disagreeing with that, either. We're just disagreeing with the idea that Lews Therin the person was in any way transferred beyond being reborn as Rand. When Rand started remembering his past life, it wasn't as if Lews Therin was all of a sudden sharing his head with him. That was just his perception, influenced at first by his preconception of Lews Therin as a) another man, and b) a murdering madman. As the memories started coming more fully, he found nothing in those memories to encourage him to see himself as being Lews Therin, so of course he continued to perceive Lews Therin to be another man.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #15  
Old 11-11-2009, 09:50 PM
PatsNats28 PatsNats28 is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 9
PatsNats28 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

I like your point about Ilyena, it makes sense with his irrational dislike towards harming women.
  #16  
Old 11-12-2009, 05:33 PM
4Alethinos 4Alethinos is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Pittsburg, CA
Posts: 344
4Alethinos will become famous soon enough4Alethinos will become famous soon enough
Default

Yes, I agree that a part of Rand's problems about killing women came from guilt over Ilyena. I am also glad that this particular insanity is likely over. Rand can happily off Moggy, Cyndane, and whoever and get the job done with no guilt, whatsoever. Whee!

I also do not agree with the taint barrier degradation theory, at all. Since the revelation from Semi that this syndrome occurred in the AoL before the little incident with the Bore, it follows that it is a product of the Pattern and ultimately the Wheel.

"You can not ignore the chicks. They do result in McNuggets, after all."
  #17  
Old 11-12-2009, 05:37 PM
Belazamon's Avatar
Belazamon Belazamon is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: West Springfield, MA
Posts: 2,309
Belazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to Belazamon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Alethinos
I also do not agree with the taint barrier degradation theory, at all. Since the revelation from Semi that this syndrome occurred in the AoL before the little incident with the Bore, it follows that it is a product of the Pattern and ultimately the Wheel.
Correlation does not equal causation.
__________________
Stating your opinion as a fact doesn't make it any less your opinion.

No one cares, no one sympathizes
You just stand around and play synthesizers
 

Tags
lews therin


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.