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  #41  
Old 11-17-2009, 10:06 AM
Bonzi77 Bonzi77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurk
On a side note, for how long would the surviving AS after the breaking have been able to create angreal etc? one generation, two? we know for sure the making of them was lost after the breaking, but how long?

And would there have been (maybe not yet completely mad) male channelers able to create angreal etc.after the breaking? And can an angreal etc. therefore be tainted?
I wouldn't think it would have survived long. People were too busy running for their lives to pass along any information. It would have been mostly gone after a generation. Maybe a handful of people passed it on, but it would have faded from memory quickly.

Angreal can not be tainted, at least not in the way saidin was tainted. Angreal don't have power in and of themselves the only amplify the power from the true source.
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  #42  
Old 11-17-2009, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurk
On a side note, for how long would the surviving AS after the breaking have been able to create angreal etc? one generation, two? we know for sure the making of them was lost after the breaking, but how long?
The breaking lasted a number of generations. I suspect that during the breaking, the most accomplished AS (which means those capable of making angreal and the like) were generally busy dealing with male channnelers, which will have reduced their life span a bit. And the teaching opportunities, for that matter.

Quote:
And would there have been (maybe not yet completely mad) male channelers able to create angreal etc.after the breaking? And can an angreal etc. therefore be tainted?
The breaking was said to have ended when the last male AS died. The only sensible distinction between male AS and "other male channeler" seems one of training, so as long as there were male channelers who had been taught how to do things (like make angreal), the breaking wasn't over.
  #43  
Old 11-17-2009, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
The breaking lasted a number of generations.
Channeler generations or muggle generations?

There are some hints that Aes Sedai took apprentices after the breakdown of civilization to pass on what knowledge they could -- The White Tower was formed from several groups of such attempts to preserve knowledge.

If the Breaking ended when the last male AS died, then there is a distinct possibility that some AOL-Trained Female AS were still alive -- since women generally live longer than men and nobody was trying to eradicate female channelers. (At least women live longer once complications of child-birth are discounted; which we can probably do for AS during the Breaking.)

Some knowledge of how to make *'angreal probably survived the Breaking and should have been available to the founders of the White Tower in 98 AB. It would be interesting to know why the knowledge was lost to the White Tower since then; I can guess at a couple of reasons, but they're only guesses.
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  #44  
Old 11-17-2009, 11:38 AM
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And we know that at least 2 AS from the AoL survived well past the Breaking, from Rand's "memories" alone. There had to have been more than just those two.
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  #45  
Old 11-17-2009, 12:30 PM
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Even odder things like Traveling were lost. Gateways don't take any Talent, or even Power to teach the weave. It seems odd that something so practical and teachable would die out.

There were up to 5 gholem active at the time, and Ishamael was free for a time. Perhaps Ishamael killed off knowledge, and surviving Aes Sedai.
  #46  
Old 11-17-2009, 01:45 PM
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I don't think Ishamael would have wanted any competiton surviving. He might have used the confusion of the breaking to off quite a few of the female AS. If he used the TP, it would have created even more confusion since at the time people would have thyought he was sealed away.
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  #47  
Old 11-17-2009, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara
And we know that at least 2 AS from the AoL survived well past the Breaking, from Rand's "memories" alone. There had to have been more than just those two.
RJ said that those Aes Sedai weren't quite that old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Barnes and Noble chat 19 October 1998

John from Front Royal, Virginia: Were either of the Aes Sedai seen at Rhuidean in The Shadow Rising Deindre, the Age of Legends Aes Sedai from the beginning of the Breaking? Is she responsible for Foretelling the entire Prophecies of the Dragon? Thank you for taking time to respond to our questions this evening.
RJ: No, she wasn't, and you're welcome.



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Q: "Was the Aes Sedai who initiated the Pact of Rhuidean from the Age of Legends?".
RJ: "No. No, she was not from the Age of Legends."
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  #48  
Old 11-17-2009, 01:51 PM
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Hmmm. Well the second question/ answer definitely squelched that idea, but then how could she be AS at the time? It would have been prior to the White Tower, right? But post AoL. Doesn't that preclude them from being AS then? It may be semantics though...
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  #49  
Old 11-17-2009, 01:52 PM
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The Tower was founded in 70 AB (After Breaking), so I'm not sure why you think it would be pre-Tower.
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  #50  
Old 11-19-2009, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neilbert
Even odder things like Traveling were lost. Gateways don't take any Talent, or even Power to teach the weave. It seems odd that something so practical and teachable would die out.
Part of the reason traveling may have been lost is that the world was changing on a daily basis. Traveling to any point out of sight might be dangerous for the simple reason that the place you are opening a gateway to could be under the ocean or in the middle of a man made volcano or any number of other natural disasters.

one would think that the line of sight traveling would still be useful but part of the proplem may have been the way AS were taught.

If you come from a high tech era you probably learn the theory and then move on to practicals. While ordinarly technology may have been on the way out during the war the technology of the OP may also have been effected. As weapons like shock lances and sho wings became rarer the need for AS would grow to counter the Shadowspawn.

If trainee AS were being rushed out of training school as fast as possible their education may have narrowed to battle weaves the leadership probably hoped that if they won the war those warrior AS could go back to school and learn how to build skyscrapers and the such when the war ended.

The only trouble is that after the strike they still had to mop up the Shadow forces and before they could go back to school they were either going mad or trying to stop the mad AS. Things go down hill from there and you have female AS with a narrow ability base and little in the overall channeling theory that would allow them to expand what they can do in better times. Effectivly they know how to do some things but don't really know why things work the way they do so they can't experement. If that is the case its a lot easier to see knowledge being lost when you add in mad AS, a shifting world, bandits and general distruct if not hatred of AS by civiliains.
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  #51  
Old 11-19-2009, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
The Tower was founded in 70 AB (After Breaking), so I'm not sure why you think it would be pre-Tower.
Cause I don't have the timeline mapped out in my brain like you do? Seriously that early eh? Assuming that the zero hour for AB is the day of the Last Strike? Or am I getting that wrong too?
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  #52  
Old 11-19-2009, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara
Cause I don't have the timeline mapped out in my brain like you do? Seriously that early eh? Assuming that the zero hour for AB is the day of the Last Strike? Or am I getting that wrong too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tGS Glossary
The Toman Calendar (devised by Toma dur Ahmid) was adopted approximately two centuries after the death of the last male Aes Sedai, recording years After the Breaking of the World (AB).
Unless the Guide says something about this, it seems pretty vague. Is the year the last male Aes Sedai died AB 1 (or 0) or is it AB ~-200?

Last edited by Subucula Tertia; 11-19-2009 at 03:29 PM.
  #53  
Old 11-20-2009, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWB, Section 3, The World After the Breaking, Calendars
Since the Breaking of the World, three dating systems have attained enough popular appeal to become standard calendars. The first to come into use after the Breaking was known as the Toman Calendar, so named for its creator Toma dur Ahmid. It used the delineation AB for After the Breaking, and began with year 1 AB. Because of the tumult of the period, this Calendar was not actually adapted until some two hundred years after the death of the last male Aes Sedai (which officially ended the Breaking). Even then, owing to the total chaos during the Breaking and its immediate aftermath, its starting point had to be arbitrarily assigned. The Toman Calendar was in use until the end of the Trolloc Wars.
So AB 1 was more or less the year after the last male AS died, something like 300 years after the Strike on SG. Give or take four score and seven years, of course.

Actually, if you want some more accuracy, then the previous chapter gives:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWB, Chapter 8, The Breaking of the World
Various fragmentary sources put the actual duration of the Breaking - that is, the major geological and climatic upheavals - at anywhere from 239 to 344 years. Since these sources date from the days between the end of the Breaking and the founding of the Compact of the Ten Nations, it is possible that some of these writers had access to still earlier source material, but none can be taken as definitive.
  #54  
Old 11-20-2009, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
If trainee AS were being rushed out of training school as fast as possible their education may have narrowed to battle weaves the leadership probably hoped that if they won the war those warrior AS could go back to school and learn how to build skyscrapers and the such when the war ended.

The only trouble is that after the strike they still had to mop up the Shadow forces and before they could go back to school they were either going mad or trying to stop the mad AS. Things go down hill from there and you have female AS with a narrow ability base and little in the overall channeling theory that would allow them to expand what they can do in better times. Effectivly they know how to do some things but don't really know why things work the way they do so they can't experement. If that is the case its a lot easier to see knowledge being lost when you add in mad AS, a shifting world, bandits and general distruct if not hatred of AS by civiliains.
The only problem I find in this very good explanation is that Traveling has quite a significant military use, and, once you have also small number of channeler and many muggle troops, it might be viewed even more important than direct combat skills, like the two asha'man were used by Perrin in his battle mainly for Traveling purposes.

However it's not impossible that during the War of Shadow the rush-trainings programs could create specialized roles - some would specialize on direct combat, some would specialize on logistics, some would have roles in the rear. During the Breaking, when the organization of AS collapsed and with it the training system too, the battle and logistic specialists would be more directly employed in dealing with mad male AS and have quite little chance to survive compared to those trained more for rear roles. And that might be why after the breaking only not very much military capable Aes Sedai survived, ones who were never meant for the first line of battle.
  #55  
Old 11-21-2009, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by a dragonburned fool View Post
The only problem I find in this very good explanation is that Traveling has quite a significant military use, and, once you have also small number of channeler and many muggle troops, it might be viewed even more important than direct combat skills, like the two asha'man were used by Perrin in his battle mainly for Traveling purposes.
I can think of two ways traveling might have died out. First, it takes a certain strenght to open gateways of meaningful size. Even in the AoL not everyone could travel. In Rand's vision one of his ancestors plans to visit someplace with an AS who can travel, hence some were not strong enough.

Now what main advantage do men have over women in the OP? I would guess when more and more men went mad the stronger female AS were sent out in circles to deal with them, or at least try. I don't think its unreasonable for there to be a very high casualty rate among those forerunners to the Red Ajah. This leaves weaker AS around who may not be strong enough to travel, and if you are training on the run so to speak I doubt if one would waste time learing weaves that you don't have the strenght to operate.

The mind set of the AoL AS was a lot different from modern AS. They saw themselves as servants of all. When the breaking started I would guess stronger female AS would also feel bound to try to step up to the plate to deal with any local disasters that were occuring near them. Again a dangerous occupation.

Secondly traveling during the breaking could activly be dangerous. The world was shifting and instead of opening a gateway to the next city you might end up opening it onto an ocean or an active volcano or any number of other nasty geological feature that could kill everyone around you if it came through the gateway.
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  #56  
Old 11-22-2009, 02:09 PM
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Default Returning to the thread title topic...

I just re-read the Sheriam bits. Nothing indicates she ONLY lost a finger. There is a possibility she did not get all of the ter'angreal...we know they ARE gone, but nothing seems to indicate another sister might not have snagged one, or more.

Lelaine comments upon discovery they are missing that they were customarily kept all together under guard, but the guards would think nothing of Sheriam retrieving one...why stop her from accessing them? Which begs the question who else would be ignored enough to access them.

The whole idea that the Oath Rod can be defeated seems to toss out lots of questions as to who in the Rebel Camp could still be BA. Sorry, but if I were Black and watched Sheriam and Moira run, you bet I would hold myself very very quietly and think furiously of another way out of that situation. It also begs the question why did Moira jump and run rather than creating a gateway and escaping? She watched Sheriam be shielded, so possibly grasping the source alone would have been enough to point fingers at her, but you expect the shield you can fight it. How strong was Moira, I cannot seem to find anything except she deferred to all the other Rebel Sitters, so she must have been very weak.



I think that scene is not as clear cut as imagined in regards to finishing off the BA in the rebel camp. And if even ONE BA could get through it, wouldn't it be likely that word spread to others to sit tight?
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  #57  
Old 11-22-2009, 03:45 PM
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Like what? Aes Sedai who actually are can't do any of the things we have discussed to defeat the Oath Rod. What options do they have left?
 

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