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  #161  
Old 11-30-2009, 03:30 PM
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My take on the dark halo thingy was just simple you have Rand's being ta'veren and then you have him being corrupted by the Dark One's own essence, which basically juices up his ta'veren nature and tips it toward evil being woven around him. Suddenly he really can make a person have a heart attack by his ta'veren nature, simply by willing it so. Well, as long as it would be an evil thing to do.

And if Rand and Ishamael are really woven out together and Ish has similar qualities then it wouldn't surprise me if the health of the Blight seems to be as directly linked to Ishamael's fortunes as it has been in the series.
  #162  
Old 12-03-2009, 03:10 AM
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I have givin some more thought on how Mesaana could defeat the Oath Rod with out mental gymnastics. It could be from an other ter'angreal. It could be one that is simular to the Oath Rod and interfers with it, or have been made to stop oaths from binding.


Leane said the following
Quote:
New Spring:the novel
Chapter 11, Just Before Dawn

"A thousand years ago, women came to be raised clad in the Light and left the same way - everyone here would have been - but the only part of that custom left is to keep the hallways clear until you reach the Ajah's quarter"
There would have been a reason why to be clad in the Light for the raising. We know the reason why women are clad in the Light when taking the Accepted test. But we can only guess at the reason for when they are raised.

It quite well could be from one or more AS not liking the Oaths when first introduced and found out that a personal ter'angrel they had with them kept them from being bound. It most likely would have been one of the AS who discoverd what the Oath Rod does. They would have had other ter'angeals around or ones that behaved simular in begining tests.

When an ageless face did not appear, the AS investigated the reason and found the ter'angreal. It would have been taken back if a sister "borrowed" it. To make sure on one did not do the same, the only logical thing to do is do the binding clad in the Light.

They could also discourage others from doing the smae by stating that no two ter'angreals do the same thing. Which could be true in their eyes since they only know what a fraction of the ones they have do. The knowlege of such an event might be in the 13th Depository or even stricken from the records all together because of the potential harm it could do.

The reason for Accepted to be still clad in the light for the test would come up every so often when when of them does not return from the rings. If no other mishapps happen with the bindings and Oaths the reason would have been forgotten even by those who would be in charge of the secrets if it was secret.

The ter'angreal very well could have been in the storeroom and Mesaana discoverd it. If she did, the other question is, did she take anything else? I can't imagin any of the Chosen giving up the chance at any of the items in there.
  #163  
Old 12-03-2009, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolframbohr2 View Post
I have givin some more thought on how Mesaana could defeat the Oath Rod with out mental gymnastics. It could be from an other ter'angreal. It could be one that is simular to the Oath Rod and interfers with it, or have been made to stop oaths from binding.


Leane said the following


There would have been a reason why to be clad in the Light for the raising. We know the reason why women are clad in the Light when taking the Accepted test. But we can only guess at the reason for when they are raised.

It quite well could be from one or more AS not liking the Oaths when first introduced and found out that a personal ter'angrel they had with them kept them from being bound. It most likely would have been one of the AS who discoverd what the Oath Rod does. They would have had other ter'angeals around or ones that behaved simular in begining tests.

When an ageless face did not appear, the AS investigated the reason and found the ter'angreal. It would have been taken back if a sister "borrowed" it. To make sure on one did not do the same, the only logical thing to do is do the binding clad in the Light.

They could also discourage others from doing the smae by stating that no two ter'angreals do the same thing. Which could be true in their eyes since they only know what a fraction of the ones they have do. The knowlege of such an event might be in the 13th Depository or even stricken from the records all together because of the potential harm it could do.

The reason for Accepted to be still clad in the light for the test would come up every so often when when of them does not return from the rings. If no other mishapps happen with the bindings and Oaths the reason would have been forgotten even by those who would be in charge of the secrets if it was secret.

The ter'angreal very well could have been in the storeroom and Mesaana discoverd it. If she did, the other question is, did she take anything else? I can't imagin any of the Chosen giving up the chance at any of the items in there.
I think you're over-thinking this. You don't need to do mental gymnastics to defeat the oath rod. all sisters re-swore the oaths, Meesana has a 'get out of discovery free' card just by saying 'im not part of the black ajah' or 'i am no darkfriend'. Both are not lies for her. she is a chosen or forsaken. period. no other gimmicks needed.
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  #164  
Old 12-03-2009, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maze View Post
I think you're over-thinking this. You don't need to do mental gymnastics to defeat the oath rod. all sisters re-swore the oaths, Meesana has a 'get out of discovery free' card just by saying 'im not part of the black ajah' or 'i am no darkfriend'. Both are not lies for her. she is a chosen or forsaken. period. no other gimmicks needed.
I am sure this has been stated already, but if she inverted a weave of air (or whatever) to put a barrier/shield between her and the rod, she wouldn't be bound. It requires contact. She already has an inverted "disguise", so why not an inverted "glove" as well?
  #165  
Old 12-03-2009, 11:53 AM
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I find it unlikely that Mesaana would allow herself to be bound by the oaths, regardless of whether she could do it and still hide her identity. Brandon said at a signing that there IS a way to defeat the oath rod.
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  #166  
Old 12-03-2009, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maze View Post
I think you're over-thinking this. You don't need to do mental gymnastics to defeat the oath rod. all sisters re-swore the oaths, Meesana has a 'get out of discovery free' card just by saying 'im not part of the black ajah' or 'i am no darkfriend'. Both are not lies for her. she is a chosen or forsaken. period. no other gimmicks needed.
I posted something simular to this earlier in the thread.

I am the type that likes to think of multiple ways something can be done. The one reason I love this series is that there can be multiple therories until the big reveal. And at times, well a lot of times, stuff seems to comes out of the blue, but when you look back you realize the clues were all there in multiple places.

Even if a therory turns out correct, there tends to be a "but" in it. Like the Verin thing.

Even though I put forth a thought on ter'angreal, I am still going to think of other ways. I have even thought of ways to tear apart what I posted on it.
  #167  
Old 12-03-2009, 08:20 PM
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I know this may be a stretch, but what if it were possible to take an oath that says something like "I vow to not be bound by oaths taken on this rod" or some such oath. Also, do actual thoughts and intentions come into play when taking the oaths? Could an oath be qualified in someones thoughts? For example, "I vow to speak no word that is untrue"....except when I feel like it. And I don't think that Mesaana could speak the words "I am not a darkfriend" truthfully. Whether she is a Chosen or a beggar, she worships the Dark One, which makes her a darkfriend.
  #168  
Old 12-03-2009, 09:04 PM
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Default Two things tying Rand to the land?

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Sort of. He seems to have said that it is both Rand's ta'veren effect and the effects of the link with Moridin (extending to the True Power usage). The latter affects Rand, which in turn affects the former.
Ah, ummm...did Brandon at all mention the evil of Shadar Logoth directly being tied to the 'bedrock of the land' as one additional possibility for all that grain going bad in Arad Doman?

Yes, Rand is tied to the land, yet the evil of Shador Logoth was tied to the land as well. And Rand does have a wound on his side from Padan Fain's red ruby dagger. So that's two separate mechanisms tying Rand to the land now: as a ta'veran Dragon Reborn, and the wound of evil who's origin was Shador Logoth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tEoW book, Moiraine speaking to Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Lan, Thom
No enemy had come to Aridhol but Aridhol. Suspicion and hate had given birth to something that fed on that which created it, something locked in the bedrock on which the city stood. Mashadar waits still, hungering. Men spoke of Aridhol no more. They named it Shadar Logoth, the Place Where the Shadow Waits, or more simply, Shadow’s Waiting.

Remember Mordeth's indecision about what to do with the three boy ta'verans in Aridhol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tEoW book - Rand's pov with Mat, Perrin and Mordeth in the scene and separately Padan Fain within the city now
If you still want,” Perrin said to Mordeth, “we’ll come back tomorrow and help you.” Carefully he set the axe back on the heap of gem-encrusted chalices and jewelry. “If you want.”
No. That is….” Panting, Mordeth shook his head as if he could not decide. “Take what you want. Except….Except….”
Suddenly Rand realized what had been nagging at him about the man. The scattered torches in the hallway had given each of them a ring of shadows, just as the torches in the treasure room did. Only…. He was so shocked he said it out loud. “You don’t have a shadow.”
A goblet fell from Mat’s hand with a crash.
Mordeth nodded, and for the first time his fleshy eyelids opened all the way. His sleek face suddenly appeared pinched and hungry. “So.” He stood straighter, seeming taller. “It is decided.”

Rand seems to embody the spirit of Aridhol, in his actions for a good part of tGS book. Until they very last chapters of course, whereupon he changes his views radically (Chapters 49, 50).

But what happens to the evil within Rand, spreading by his two ties to the lands still? Does his newly expressed love trump, cancel out two wounds of evil from spreading?

Oddly enough the very same chapter Mordeth of Shador Logoth is introduced, is the very same one, as the idea of "some dead man was speaking with my mouth" is introduced to Rand by Mat.

(Speculating) Later this madmen idea seems to of been created and translated into L.T.T, so Rand did not have to accept who he really was in fact, the Dragon Reborn and the baggage of it all. L.T.T is someone Rand would of hear of previously in stories, while this other 'old blood relatives' he probably never had heard of before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tEoW book - Chapter 'Shadow's Waiting' - Rand's pov, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Thom, Lan, Moiraine
“Are you all right, Mat?” Rand said. Mat lifted the saddle from his horse, and stood holding it. “Mat? Mat!”
Mat gave a start and almost dropped the saddle. “What? Oh. I … I was just thinking.”
“Thinking?” Perrin hooted from where he was replacing Mandarb’s bridle with a hackamore. “You were asleep.”
Mat scowled, “I was thinking about … about what happened back there. About those words I ….” Everybody turned to look at him then, not just Rand, and he shifted uneasily. “Well, you heard what Moiraine said. It’s as if some dead man was speaking with my mouth. I don’t like it.” His scowl grew deeper when Perrin chuckled.
“Aemon’s warcry, she said—right? Maybe you’re Aemon come back again. The way you go on about how dull Emond’s Field is, I’d think you would like that—being a king and hero reborn.”
“Don’t say that!” Thom drew a deep breath; everybody stared at him now. “That is dangerous talk, stupid talk. The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly.” He took another breath to calm himself before going on. “The old blood, she said. The blood, not a dead man. I’ve heard that it can happen, sometimes. Heard, though I never really thought …. It was your roots, boy. A line running from you to your father to your grandfather, right on back to Manetheren, and maybe beyond. Well, now you know your family is old.

Rand should of listening and followed Thom & Moiraine's advice, but he didn't of course. Which also implies that Rand's interpretation of this particular vision of Min is incorrect in tGS book:

Quote:
Originally Posted by aCoS book - Chapter 33 - Min speaking to Rand
"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't.
Moridin should be that other man described above in Min's vision above, not L.T.T as Rand believes him to be in tGS book.
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Last edited by FelixPax; 12-03-2009 at 09:29 PM.
  #169  
Old 12-03-2009, 09:53 PM
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Default Mesaana an Novice, Accept or Servant as cover?

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Originally Posted by Maze View Post
I think you're over-thinking this. You don't need to do mental gymnastics to defeat the oath rod. all sisters re-swore the oaths, Meesana has a 'get out of discovery free' card just by saying 'im not part of the black ajah' or 'i am no darkfriend'. Both are not lies for her. she is a chosen or forsaken. period. no other gimmicks needed.
Whoever said Mesaana was using as cover an Aes Sedai identity? For all we know, Mesaana could be an Accepted who are not subject to the 'three oaths'. Lanfear once played the part of a Novice, Else Grinwell when it served her own purposes with Egwene, Nynaeve & Elayne. Or do as Moghedien did previously become a servant as cover, and for relative freedom.

One advantage of being a servant for Mesaana would be a separate set of stairs to move around the White Tower, and not to be subject to the whims of Aes Sedai as readily. Moghedien got out of doing any work as a servant when she was following Liandrin's BA group, why not Mesaana too?


I thought it was interesting that it was expressed noted in tGS book, that servants did not take care of the area of the White Tower where the Black Ajah Hunters Sitters met at, in the lowest levels. Is that one reason why Mesaana didn't learn of the BA Hunters, and dismissed Alviarin's claims of danger to the Black Ajah earlier?
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Last edited by FelixPax; 12-03-2009 at 09:56 PM.
  #170  
Old 12-04-2009, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Whoever said Mesaana was using as cover an Aes Sedai identity? For all we know, Mesaana could be an Accepted who are not subject to the 'three oaths'. Lanfear once played the part of a Novice, Else Grinwell when it served her own purposes with Egwene, Nynaeve & Elayne. Or do as Moghedien did previously become a servant as cover, and for relative freedom.
I did, didn't you read? , luckily I don't invent the story lines though, still means that I'm not necessarily right by default.. although my contract with my god-complex entitles me to being right 9 out of 10 times....

Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
One advantage of being a servant for Mesaana would be a separate set of stairs to move around the White Tower, and not to be subject to the whims of Aes Sedai as readily. Moghedien got out of doing any work as a servant when she was following Liandrin's BA group, why not Mesaana too?
Servsaana? in my opinion, I don't buy it... for one, her character is different than Moghediens ... and Moggy is the only 'chosen' we know who posed a servant. Other forsaken we know of posed as rulers of people of influence. that doesn't mean she is posing as Mattin Stephanos (the only ruler in the tower, unless I forgot him (her) leaving from the tower, which is possible) right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
I thought it was interesting that it was expressed noted in tGS book, that servants did not take care of the area of the White Tower where the Black Ajah Hunters Sitters met at, in the lowest levels. Is that one reason why Mesaana didn't learn of the BA Hunters, and dismissed Alviarin's claims of danger to the Black Ajah earlier?
no that means that the servants are a lazy bunch? Still I stick with the KISS (Keep It Simple, Sucker) principle.... besides there could be dozens of reasons why the passage of servants not cleaning the lower basements where added to the books ... for instance creating a mood? something that is both RJ and BS strong points?
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Last edited by Maze; 12-04-2009 at 07:32 AM.
  #171  
Old 12-04-2009, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Whoever said Mesaana was using as cover an Aes Sedai identity? For all we know, Mesaana could be an Accepted who are not subject to the 'three oaths'. Lanfear once played the part of a Novice, Else Grinwell when it served her own purposes with Egwene, Nynaeve & Elayne. Or do as Moghedien did previously become a servant as cover, and for relative freedom.

One advantage of being a servant for Mesaana would be a separate set of stairs to move around the White Tower, and not to be subject to the whims of Aes Sedai as readily. Moghedien got out of doing any work as a servant when she was following Liandrin's BA group, why not Mesaana too?


I thought it was interesting that it was expressed noted in tGS book, that servants did not take care of the area of the White Tower where the Black Ajah Hunters Sitters met at, in the lowest levels. Is that one reason why Mesaana didn't learn of the BA Hunters, and dismissed Alviarin's claims of danger to the Black Ajah earlier?
It's been brought up before, but I don't buy it. For one thing, RJ said that we have seen Mesaana's alter-ego and that we should be able to figure out who it is. There's simply not a servant, novice or accepted that fits that criteria that we've seen enough of to fit that criteria. For another, Mesaana needs to be able to wield influence and that's much harder to do as a non AS in the tower. Nobody is going to pay any attention to suggestions from a novice or accepted or cook or whatever, short of Compulsion. If she simply wanted to compel everyone to her will, she wouldn't need an alter-ego at all.

EDIT: And more conclusively, when Alviarin hits the panic button to summon Mesaana, she's wearing a fine dress, which wouldn't be the case if she was a tower underling of any sort.
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Last edited by Bonzi77; 12-04-2009 at 07:45 AM.
  #172  
Old 12-04-2009, 01:34 PM
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The further the point, I think Graendal is very much capable of figuring out what the others are up to. Both Moghedien and she seem to be quite capable of making information networks for themselves, and even Moridin acknowledged that Graendal was probably the more skillful at it. Given that, I really do think what we know about Mesaana from her viewpoint is correct: Mesaana is masquerading as an Aes Sedai in the White Tower.


There are some things baking my noodle right now:
- Who are the three named sisters Egwene felt didn't fit Mesaana's alter-ego? Are they agents of Cadsuane's perhaps? She did seem to be somewhat informed about goings on in the Tower and Rebel camps; I can't see her NOT planting sisters to keep apprised of events.

- What did Mesaana mean when more and more people were joining the cause, "some unwittingly"? Were they coerced into joining the Black (by her perhaps)? Or is it something a bit more sinister?

- How is (was) Graendal spying on the White Tower? Did she Compel Aes Sedai to report to her indirectly? She's been in the Tower before, as we know: her, Lanfear and Mesaana each. Were the three names given in the epilogue her agents/spies?
 

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