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Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Archived: General Wheel of Time Discussion - 05/2008 - 03/2012
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  #21  
Old 10-26-2009, 03:43 AM
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Perhaps the Dark One wishes to be free so he can create new worlds in his own image. What if he isn't so different than the Creator?
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  #22  
Old 10-26-2009, 10:39 AM
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The DO's ultimate goal, IMHO, is to escape his prison and stop the Wheel from turning again, basically freezing time in an age where he is free, and therefore free forever.

Humanity has the power to oppose the DO. The Creator gave humanity that strength as the Creator does not actively take part in the happenings now.

Rand is embodiment of humanity's ability to oppose the DO, but all of humanity together is needed, not just Rand. As humanity in general is starting to feel the pull of TG approaching per the already released sections of the TGS, it's obvious it's not just Rand all on his own to defeat the DO. It's all of humanity AS ONE, and Rand's purpose is to unite humanity and LEAD the fight, not take on the DO all on his own.

Therefore, the DO's war against humanity is to subdue those with the power to stop him. Hence the trolloc armies, and the forsaken, etc.
  #23  
Old 10-26-2009, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunderwaffe
Perhaps the Dark One wishes to be free so he can create new worlds in his own image. What if he isn't so different than the Creator?
Well then, he wouldn't be the Creator's opposite. And I thought RJ had confirmed that he was.
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  #24  
Old 10-28-2009, 12:31 AM
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Several things come to my mind in this discussion. RJ indicated that the DO is a control freak. The creator is not. The WoT was created to allow mankind to go its way with a little supervision from the Wheel by its weaving of the Pattern. This was not intended to completely define outcomes, but an effort to just maintain a balance.

We know the the DO and the Creator are both eternal beings of approximately equal power. Though the imprisoning of the DO suggests that it is not completely equal.

The DO needs one of two things to make his escape. Have some others destroy the Wheel itself, a prospect that I find not credible, or have others widen the Bore and allow more of the DO's power to be available to the WoT universe and then let him destroy the Wheel.

IMO, neither of these options destroy humanity. It simply means that no more threads would be woven and mankind would be more free, but more completely vulnerable to the control of the Control Freak DO.

The DO defeats the Creator by not destroying the creation, but by turning it into the opposite of what the Creator intended it to be. A world with no free will, at all. A my way or the highway existence. It would likely play havoc with the existing reincarnation nature of The WoT, as well.

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  #25  
Old 10-28-2009, 03:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Alethinos
We know the the DO and the Creator are both eternal beings of approximately equal power. Though the imprisoning of the DO suggests that it is not completely equal.
Equal but separate.
It may very well be that they have the same amount of raw power, and perhaps even the same level of skill, but different styles of using that power. Then it may be that one of them set up a trap which caught the other. If true, then the DO could also have locked up the Creator, if only he had been the first one to be lucky in their quarrel.
  #26  
Old 11-21-2009, 03:37 PM
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I was going through threads to tag them, and I noticed this one, which reminded me of this quote that I just re-sourced today:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
scifi.com chat 1 January 2000


Q: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?
RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.
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  #27  
Old 11-21-2009, 03:53 PM
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We already know the Dark One's eventual goals and plans. Moridin revealed them to us in that cool T'A'R scene with Rand in tGS.

As Moridin says (this is not verbatim); the Dark One wants to destroy existence. The other 12 Forsaken never really grasped this; they thought it would be as it was in the War of Power, when they were unquestioned temporal rulers and the world was basically unchanged (and yes, this is a terrible fate for average people, read about all the crap they went through at Mesaana's hands and whatnot).

Ishamael/Moridin understands the true nature of the Dark One better. He says that his goal is not dominance, but power and meaning in the days before the end. He even says that he only allies with the Dark One because of his inevitable eventual victory, not because of any real desire to rule or have power. Quite the opposite, Ishy has consistently shunned those trappings of power. He seems to enjoy serving the Dark One because its like a game to him. He knows what will happen if the Dark One breaks free. No one else does.
  #28  
Old 11-21-2009, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
As Moridin says (this is not verbatim); the Dark One wants to destroy existence. The other 12 Forsaken never really grasped this; they thought it would be as it was in the War of Power, when they were unquestioned temporal rulers and the world was basically unchanged (and yes, this is a terrible fate for average people, read about all the crap they went through at Mesaana's hands and whatnot).
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  #29  
Old 12-05-2009, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neilbert View Post
I would have thought that one at least was pretty obvious. It's really just divide and conquer. The Dark One has done everything in his power to keep Randlanders from putting up a unified front, from the Trolloc Wars to Hawkwing, and even giving orders to that affect that I'm too lazy to spoil.
To paraphrase Verin, the Dark One isn't nearly as obvious in his intentions as his human servants. I always thought the "let the Lord of Chaos rule" was meant as a counterpart to whatever secret of the universe Fel uncovered in his note that "belief and order give strength." We've seen in several circumstances that human minds can directly affect the reality around them: Tel'aran'rhoid, the Skimming Place, and Shadar Logoth to name a few examples. My take on Fel's note is that the collective unconscious of the human population strengthens the Pattern if, and only if, they believe in its order. If they become dispondent and confused by the chaos around them the Pattern will lose the buffer their minds created and become easier for the Dark One to unravel.
  #30  
Old 12-06-2009, 07:03 PM
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And there is the quote floating around that basically says "The Dark One isn't playing the game that everyone thinks he is."

Tercel, I think that one of the points of the series is that we don't truly know for sure what the Dark One's actual goals are.

I'm beginning to have hope that my Tad Williams-ish type ending may actually be correct.

While the Snakes-and-Foxes game may be a way to cheat the 'Finns, it likely is also an allegory for the series.

Also, the DO directly asked Demandred if he would unleash Balefire in his name and that he could be named Nae'blis for that act, which gives even Demandred pause. I think that we've been given one good hint right there, but it isn't much to go on.
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Last edited by Bryan Blaire; 12-06-2009 at 07:07 PM.
 

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