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Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 12: The Gathering Storm
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  #1  
Old 12-12-2009, 09:59 PM
pneumatik pneumatik is offline
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Default A third option

Sorry if this has already been brought up. I'm new here. I looked and haven't found anything about it, though.

What I'm talking about are the possible outcomes for Rand fighting the DO. In tGS Rand spent some time complaining about how everything he's doing is a waste if the same age will come around again. And with his constant hardening he became a real fan of the ends justifying the means. And with choedan kal he's certainly plenty powerful.

May Rand could replace the DO. He would be so powerful that he actually destroys the DO - he contemplated destroying everything with choedan kal, so I don't think just the DO is out of the question. Then once the DO's gone, super-powerful Rand tries to institute a better way, an improvement over the pattern as it's currently written. Maybe the way the bore is patched to as-good-as-new is because it's a different DO each time the third age comes around.

Super-hardened Rand strikes me as very much like the DO. Nothing the DO does makes any sense. If the DO has any goal he's certainly happy to kill all sorts of people to accomplish it. If the current DO is the last cycle's Rand then he knows current-Rand will kill him and take his place, since that's what current DO did last cycle. And that's why he fights so hard to take out Rand.

(Heck that might even explain why the DO would start the War of the Shadow, but that's getting off-topic.)

Maybe the reason it's important that Rand not be so hardened is to keep him from effectively continuing the DO's work. Heck, maybe it's a forgone conclusion that Rand can defeat the DO. Maybe the DO's only hope is for Rand to become so hard he starts to agree with the DO. Rand's developing an incredible aversion to being locked up. If the DO can get Rand to see how the DO's locked up and trapped, maybe Rand would have some pity on him.

I know this is pretty wacko for not being backed up by any quotes or anything, but I feel like tGS is developing something along these lines with its development of Rand.
  #2  
Old 12-12-2009, 10:30 PM
Spasmodean Spasmodean is offline
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Read The Gathering Storm.
  #3  
Old 12-12-2009, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneumatik View Post
What I'm talking about are the possible outcomes for Rand fighting the DO.
There are a tons of theories on that, and some new ideas have come out of this book. Maybe big clues; maybe red herrings. We discussed the possibility of him actually destroying the Dark One here, and as I noted in that thread, it's not really a new idea, but it was essentially put on hold here at Theoryland for a long time because of a quote I gave in post #2 of that thread, where the questioner mentions Ishamael's claims that he and the Dragon have fought endlessly, but this time the Dark One is going to win (way back in the beginning of the books). They ask if there is anything special about this Age, and RJ says no, there is nothing special about this Age, and that the time is a wheel, and endless. But the debate has perhaps regained some credence with this book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneub
In tGS Rand spent some time complaining about how everything he's doing is a waste if the same age will come around again. And with his constant hardening he became a real fan of the ends justifying the means. And with choedan kal he's certainly plenty powerful.
Well, he destroyed the male one, and the female one was destroyed at the Cleansing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneub
May Rand could replace the DO. He would be so powerful that he actually destroys the DO - he contemplated destroying everything with choedan kal, so I don't think just the DO is out of the question. Then once the DO's gone, super-powerful Rand tries to institute a better way, an improvement over the pattern as it's currently written. Maybe the way the bore is patched to as-good-as-new is because it's a different DO each time the third age comes around.
I think if the series ended like that I would kill myself. But I'm just a random opinionated person on the internet, so don't mind me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneub
Maybe the DO's only hope is for Rand to become so hard he starts to agree with the DO. Rand's developing an incredible aversion to being locked up. If the DO can get Rand to see how the DO's locked up and trapped, maybe Rand would have some pity on him.
This is an interesting parallel. I like it.
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  #4  
Old 12-13-2009, 02:47 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Quote:
Well, he destroyed the male one, and the female one was destroyed at the Cleansing.
He could just balefire himself, couldn't he?

Of course, Nynaeve would then have to raise him from the dead, but that's not a serious problem.
  #5  
Old 12-13-2009, 06:40 AM
Jokeslayer Jokeslayer is offline
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In order for this to work, wouldn't the part of Rand that becomes the DO have to not be the soul? Given that the Dragon soul is the same in every age. And IIRC RJ has said the DO doesn't have a physical body so what's really left of Rand to become the DO?
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Old 12-13-2009, 06:57 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Perhaps the Dragon already became the DO?
Then in the Last Battle, Rand would be fighting himself, to the great bemusement of all gathered to witness the event.
  #7  
Old 12-13-2009, 07:02 AM
pneumatik pneumatik is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokeslayer View Post
In order for this to work, wouldn't the part of Rand that becomes the DO have to not be the soul? Given that the Dragon soul is the same in every age. And IIRC RJ has said the DO doesn't have a physical body so what's really left of Rand to become the DO?
I hadn't thought about the Dragon's soul being spun out of the pattern in every 3rd and 4th Age. So maybe Rand becoming more like the DO is a way the DO could win. If Rand is hardened enough to use the TP then maybe that's enough for the DO to win.

As far as the DO not really having a body, maybe Rand learns a away to step outside the pattern that's similar to Dreaming or being in TAR or something. Stepping outside the pattern would be necessary if he wants to destroy and remake it. If his goal is to create a Wheel of Time that doesn't have any suffering in it, he might want to destroy and remake the pattern multiple times. Eventually he'll make a pattern that can stop him from doing this and he gets trapped, just like the DO. Then you get back to the current wheel, with an angry DO who wants only to get out of his prison and remake the pattern again.

I know this is mainly speculation, but right now "the Dragon and the DO throw OP/TP at each other until one of them loses" doesn't feel like what Tarmon Gaidon will be.
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  #8  
Old 12-13-2009, 09:22 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneumatik View Post
I know this is mainly speculation, but right now "the Dragon and the DO throw OP/TP at each other until one of them loses" doesn't feel like what Tarmon Gaidon will be.
Not really, but it is what most people in Randland expect it to be. I seriously doubt the DO thinks this, though, and I am not at all sure that Rand believes it will be that simple either.
  #9  
Old 12-17-2009, 09:28 PM
Hugh the Hand Hugh the Hand is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Perhaps the Dragon already became the DO?
Then in the Last Battle, Rand would be fighting himself, to the great bemusement of all gathered to witness the event.
Like in the end of The Adventures of Link?

I never did beat him, I would run out of time or just give up......
 

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