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  #101  
Old 01-11-2010, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Sammael was at Graendal's lair in Arad Doman at the time, so his reference to south may simply be in relation to south of his present location, and his actual wording would seem to argue strongly against this having anything to do with the Isle of the Madmen (or with the Seanchan...your other theory). Nota Bene:

If this refers to either the Isle of the Madmen or the Seanchan, that would seem to imply that both options had some bearing on his own plans, which is hard to fathom. The more likely candidates for this "south" and thus for the proxies would seem to be Masema and perhaps the rebels in the Haddon Mirk. Both of more immediate concern to Sammael's plans in Illian.
Considering Masema and his followers were wiped out, that would be an awful place for Demandred to be. I think we can rule out Demandred placing all his power there.

I can't see the rebels in Haddon Mirk being a threat to any of Sammael's plans. In fact, they were geographically farther away then the Seanchan. Plus, I can't see Demandred's influence with the rebels. Am I missing something?

Sammael's plans were to bring unified countries to the DO's side. War in Altara with the Seanchan would definitely disrupt this plan.

Based on Sammael's location at the time of the comment, we can rule out Sammael thinking that Demandred was in Caemlyn with the Black Tower, or with the Borderland army, or in Shara. So, where else would Sammael have thought Demandred to be?
  #102  
Old 01-11-2010, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crue View Post
Considering Masema and his followers were wiped out, that would be an awful place for Demandred to be. I think we can rule out Demandred placing all his power there.

I can't see the rebels in Haddon Mirk being a threat to any of Sammael's plans. In fact, they were geographically farther away then the Seanchan. Plus, I can't see Demandred's influence with the rebels. Am I missing something?

Sammael's plans were to bring unified countries to the DO's side. War in Altara with the Seanchan would definitely disrupt this plan.

Based on Sammael's location at the time of the comment, we can rule out Sammael thinking that Demandred was in Caemlyn with the Black Tower, or with the Borderland army, or in Shara. So, where else would Sammael have thought Demandred to be?
I don't mean to imply that Demandred is necessarily in either of these locales, only that his proxies are/were. Keep in mind that Sammael himself doesn't even necessarily imply a permanent presence by Demandred in the south, only of his meddling in affairs in the south.

The reason that I suggested Masema and the Haddon Mirk rebels as potential proxies is because of their known activities at the time. Certainly the Prophet was creating havoc throughout Ghealdan at the time, and his chaos was spreading into Amadicia and Altara. Masema's POV in TGS certainly allude to his contact with a pseudo-Dragon that was giving him orders, this figure may not have been Demandred, but since this figure was giving orders long after Sammael's demise, Demandred at least is a potential source of this chaos. This "false" dragon is presumably either one of the surviving male Forsaken (or maybe Aran'gar considering her mention of playing an impersonating game in KoD) or perhaps Fain (Fain is perhaps a stretch, but then it is difficult to determine the scope or limit of his tricks and talents). The rebels in Haddon Mirk were likewise making a nuisance of themselves in the south, though they may well have been either independently motivated or operatives (either knowing or unwitting) of Sammael himself, or of some other of the Forsaken.

Concerning the Seanchan, you must keep in mind that they had not yet arrived in Altara. They are thus highly unlikely, as the designation of south would be anachronistic in reference to them.
  #103  
Old 01-12-2010, 03:41 AM
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One of the Forsaken other than Aran'gar was ordering Moria, and Demandred is a good candidate, along with Moridin and Mesaana - Moria was the one who pushed for the 'alliance' with the Black Tower in the first place. It may be that she was simply trying to cause a little chaos in the Hall, but it seems more likely that she was ordered to do it. She was the only Black with any real power among the rebels that wasn't being controlled either directly (Delana) or indirectly (Sheriam) by Aran'gar (who had motive to oppose the 'alliance').
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  #104  
Old 01-14-2010, 07:12 PM
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Default Demandred's love of fashion; likely locations; Heros Hypothesis of Capes, Breeches

In a nutshell, Mesaana's fashion clue suggests that Demandred as been in Andor, Cairhien, Tear, Altara.


This is not what I have previous argued for either, as I thought that Demandred was elsewhere before this posting. Be warned this thread is long, with source quotations.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by crue View Post
Considering Masema and his followers were wiped out, that would be an awful place for Demandred to be. I think we can rule out Demandred placing all his power there.
Masema transformation into the Prophet is most likely a product of Moghedien's influence, not Demandred's. At the very least we seem to agree Demandred was not behind Masema, although maybe not on why that is so. Or How.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
Am I missing something?
Yes, there one specific hint about where Demandred is to be found, and not to be found. All based upon his own faction member's observation, Demandred's fashion sense and clothing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of Chaos book - Chapter Prologue - Mesaana pov
There was no warning, of course. There never was, when a man channeled. A bright vertical line appeared in the air, then widened as the gateway turned sideways to open long enough for Demandred to step through, giving them each a small bow. He was all in dark gray today, with a little pale lace at his neck. He adapted easily to the fashions and fabrics of this Age.
I'd trust Mesaana's knowing Demandred's relative placement and location over most other Chosen's opinions. Yes, its a very small clue. But where is pale lace around the neck common, and an uncommon fashion in the Westlands?

In Cairhien, Andor, Altara, Mayene, Cairhien there are texture quotes supporting the common fashion of lace being found around a neckline. Separately, Asmodean even worn lace around his neck.

After Rand and Min came to control Cairhien and Tear, the fashion of those nation's noblewomen slowly adapted Min's preferred fashion style of breeches & short coat not covering the hips. Not sure, how this later effected men's clothing fashions within those areas.


Although Demandred has also been seen wearing a unique type of cloak, when heading to talk with the Dark One:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of Chaos book - Chapter Prologue - Demandred pov at Shador Logath
In what was now called the Age of Legends, this had been an idyllic island in a cool sea, a favorite of those who enjoyed the rustic. Despite the steam it was bitter cold, now; he did not allow himself to feel it, but instinct made him pull his fur-lined velvet cloak closer. Feathery mist marked his breath, barely visible before the air drank it. A few hundred leagues north the world was pure ice, but Thakan’dar was always dry as any desert, though always wrapped in winter

From another point of attack to the problem of where Demandred, might be. Let's look towards what Birgitte told Nynaeve previously:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fires of Heaven book - Chapter 14 "Meetings" - Nynaeve pov with Birgitte in TAR
“I am not so unskilled—or so foolish—as to allow that.” Birgitte leaned on her silver bow; legend said she never missed with that bow and her silver arrows. “They are concerned with each other, not anyone else. I have seen Rahvin and Sammael, Graendal and Lanfear, each stalking the others unseen. And Demandred and Semirhage each shadowing them as well. I have not seen so much of them here since they were freed.”
To shadow a person implies a tracking, observing of them closely.

Where were Rahvin, Sammael, Graendal known be to physical located? In Andor, Illian, Arad Doman.

And Lanfear? She placed darkfriends close to Rand in the Aiel Waste to try watch his actions and behaviors. This implies that Demandred has done the same as Lanfear, placed other Darkfriend relatively close to Rand.


Rahvin seems to imply contact with Demandred at one point in the story:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fires of Heaven book - Chapter Prologue "The First Sparks Fall" - Rahvin pov with Lanfear, Graendal, Sammael
“Should I expect more, Lanfear?” he growled. “Have you convinced Demandred to stop thinking he is all but the Great Lord’s heir?”

“I doubt he is arrogant enough for that,” Lanfear replied smoothly. “He can see where it took Ishamael. And that is the point. A point Graendal raised. Once we were thirteen, immortal. Now four are dead, and one has betrayed us. We four are all who meet here today, and enough.”

Demandred also seems to imply visiting and/or having darkfriends who can channel of visting Tear:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of Chaos book - Chapter Prologue - Mesaana pov with Graendal, Semirhage, Demandred
“A dusty jumble of useless rubbish, so I’ve heard,” Demandred said in dismissal. “The Tairens gathered anything with even a rumored connection to the Power.”

Mesaana suspected he had more than hearsay to go on. She also suspected there was a trap for men woven around the Great Hold, too, or Demandred would have had his sa’angreal and launched himself at Rand al’Thor long since. “No doubt there are some in Cairhien and Rhuidean, but even if you do not walk right into al’Thor, both are full of women who can channel.”
-----------------------------------------------

Previously Demandred captured two cities in another Age, so what's to prevent him from attempting to do the very same thing again in this Age?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of Chaos book, Chapter 2 "New Arrival" - Rand pov with Taim, Bashere & Maidens
“Have you given people to Trollocs to eat? All the Forsaken did—prisoners who would not turn always went to the Trollocs, if they weren’t murdered out of hand—but Demandred captured two cities just because he thought the people there had slighted him before he went over to the Shadow, and every man, woman and child went into Trolloc bellies.
Maybe Tear? Cairhien? Are possible this Age's two cities, for Demandred to conquer?


----------------------------------------------

Moving back to place in the text where the fashion of lace around the neck is found, its bizarrely enough found in the Eelfinn's own realm!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Shadow Rising book, Chapter 24 'Rhuidean' - Mat pov of the Eelfinn realm
Yet before he completed a second turn there was someone standing on each pedestal, people like his guide, but dressed differently. Four were men, the others women, their stiff hair rising in a crest before spilling down their backs. All wore long white skirts that hid their feet. The women had on white blouses that fell below their hips, with high lace necks and pale ruffles at their wrists. The men wore even more straps than the guide, wider and studded with gold. Each harness supported a pair of bare bladed knives on the wearer’s chest. Bronze blades, Mat judged from the color, but he would have given all the gold in his possession for just one of them.
Has Demandred visited the Eelflinn before?
Previously, I had never really wondered if he did or didn't visit them....



Here are a few of the other lace around the neck references I've found so far:

#1 - Asmodean's fashion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 52 - Rand pov with Asmodean & Aviendha in Cairhien.
Asmodean entered, pale lace at the neck and cuffs of his black coat, harpcase slung on his back and a sword at his hip. It might have been winter for the coolness of his face, but his dark eyes were wary.
#2 - Elayne's Queen's Guards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 10 -Elayne pov
Her escort was already mounted, to avoid standing in the snow, twenty-odd riders in the white-collared red coats and brightly burnished breastplates and helmets of the Queen’s Guard. Master Ros’ doubt might be explained by the fact that the riders’ coats were silk, as were their red breeches with the white stripe up each leg, and by the pale lace they wore at neck and cuff. They certainly appeared more ceremonial than effective. Or it might have been that they were all women. Women were uncommon in jobs that required using weapons, just the occasional merchants’ guard or a rare woman who turned up in an army during time of war, and Elayne had never heard of a group of all-female soldiers before she created one.
#3 - Berelain wearing what I believe is Mayene and/or Cairhien fashion:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knife of Dreams book, Chapter Prologue 'Embers Falling on Dry Gress' - Galina pov with Berelain, Perrin, Gaul, Neald and First Captain Gerard Arganda (referred to as Ghealdan)
As she walked into the tent, a tall woman in high-necked green silk with small touches of lace at her throat and wrists, black hair falling in waves to her shoulders, laid a hand on Aybara's arm in a familiar manner. Galina recognized her. "She seems cautious, Perrin," Berelain said.
#4 - Tylee's fashion in Ebou Dar:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter's Heart book, Chapter 17 - Mat's pov with Tylin, Tuon et la in Altara
Tylin turned in a chair carved to look like gilded bamboo and stared at him over her golden winecup. Waves of glossy black hair touched with gray at the temples framed a beautiful face with the eyes of a bird of prey, and not one best pleased at the moment. Inconsequential things seemed to leap at him. She kicked her crossed leg slightly, rippling layered green and white petticoats. Pale green lace trimmed the oval opening in her gown that half exposed her full breasts, where the jeweled hilt of her marriage knife dangled.
#5 - More lace found on the Queen's Guards of Andor:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter's Heart book, Chapter 12 - Elayne pov in Caemlyn Andor
Each woman wore a bright red hat with a long white plume lying flat along the wide brim, and a wide red sash edged in snowy lace across her chest with rampant White Lions marching up it. Their white-collared crimson coats were silk, and the cut had been altered a little, so they fit better and hung almost to the knee above scarlet breeches with a white stripe up the outsides of the legs. Pale lace hung thickly at their wrists and necks, and their black boots had been waxed till they shone. They looked quite dashing, and even placid-eyed Deni swaggered just a little. Elayne suspected they would be even prouder once the sword belts and scabbards with gold tooling were ready, and the lacquered helmets and breastplates. Birgitte was having breastplates made to fit women, which Elayne suspected had*certainly*made the Palace armorer’s eyes pop!
#5 - Cairhien fashion among the nobles:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The World of Robert Jordan, The Wheel of Time By Teresa Patterson and Robert Jordan - Chapter "Cairhien"
Cairhienin upper-class dress reflects their desire for control and order. The people are shorter and more pale-skinned than Andorans, though with darker hair, and the dark colors they prefer contrast with their fair skin. Men and women wear coats and dresses of black or dark blue or green. The darkness is relieved by narrow horizontal slashes of color across the chest and body, and dark ivory lace at the throat and wrists. The number of color slashes indicates the rank of the wearer, while their color indicates the House. A very high ranking lord or lady might have slashes of color from collar to hem, while a lower ranked noble might only have a few slashes across the chest.

Based on the texture references to Demandred's preferred dress fashion of choice, I'd suggest he's been involved in both Tear and Cairhien at multiple times in the story.


Looking at the changes of servant's livery in Cairhien, also hints at changes of their ultimate masters as well, over time in the series. This research into servant's changes of livery over time, I need to finish still...many characters do comment about Cairhien livery in particular from Cadsuane to Samitsu Tamagowa. And Rand never employed nor started an active internal-affair type operation among the Cairhien palace employees either. Unlike Elayne who did search out spies and how to counter them in Caemlyn.


As for darkfriends suspects, who Demandred might influencing. I'd suggest these few individuals as a start:

  • Lady Ailil of House Riatin, of Cairhien
  • High Lord Weiramon of House Saniago, of Tear



I'd not however suggest nor believe myself that High Lady Anaiyella of House Narencelona of Tear is a darkfriend at this time, Let alone under Demandred's thumb. Why?


Capes, Breeches, Heros Hypothesis
The hypothesis that Robert Jordan used "breeches, capes" as a subliminal marker of 'heros' embedded within the storylines; as many other prior ancient writers have done. Anaiyella like Valan Luca, Luca of Rand's Rhuidean visions all have worn "capes".

Min has said,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter Heart, Ch.11
“I abandoned my horse for you, Rand al’Thor. I curled my hair for you. I gave up my*life*for you! I will*not*give up my coat and breeches!
Which is very similar what Elayne mentions about Luca's character:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 17 - Elayne pov with Valan Luca
Not that I think Master Luca would accept work that didn’t allow him to wear that cape.
It's not only the wearing of breeches and/or capes, that make a character into a hero. The actions of a character and why they decide to act are required too. In Anaiyella's case, I believe she saved Rand's life by ordering soldiers under her command to fight the Seanchan thus protecting a fallen Dragon Reborn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Path of Daggers book, Chapter 23 'Fog of War, Storm of Battles' - Rand's pov with Ailil, Anaiyella et la
Vaguely he became aware of ululating cries. Horsemen appeared among the trees to the north, galloping along the ridge, some with lowered lances, some working short bows as fast as they could nock and draw. Horsemen in blue-and-yellow armor of overlapping plates, and helmets like huge insects’ heads. Seanchan, several hundred of them it seemed. From the north. So much for Weiramon’s fly.
Rand struggled to reach the Source. Too late to worry about sicking up, or falling on his face. Another time, he might have laughed at that. He struggled . . . It was like fumbling for a pin in the dark with numbed fingers.

Time to die, Lews Therin whispered. Rand had always known Lews Therin would be there at the end.

Not fifty paces from Rand, screaming Tairens and Cairhien plowed into the Seanchan.

“Fight, you dogs!” Anaiyella shrieked, swinging down from her saddle beside him. “Fight!” The willow lady in her silks and laces hurled a string of curses that would have made a wagon driver’s tongue go dry.


Anaiyella stood holding her mount’s reins, glaring from the mill of men and steel to Rand. It was Ailil who turned him onto his back. Kneeling there, she looked down at him with an unreadable expression in her big dark eyes. He could not seem to move. He felt drained. He was not sure he could blink. Screams and the clash of steel rang in his ears.

Implications of this above scene:

Suroth told the Seanchan General about Rand's forces and that he had the ability to Travel. Suroth, we know is a Darkfriend under Semirhage's thumb. And Semirhage is partnered with Demandred.

The fashion style of lace surrounding the neck of nobles is, was common among individuals in Tear, Cairhien, Andor and yes Altarans in Ebou Dar.

Weiramon was out of position big time with his forces during this scene, and Ailil didn't order anyone to defend, protect the Dragon Reborn. Only Anaiyella knowing verbally tried to protect Rand then....

Demandred and Semirhage together are likely a common link in countering Rand in Altara, through their associated darkfriend's actions. With Ishamael checking up their progress, via that bizarre unique link which appears in Rand's head at times during those scenes of battle: "face".


The hypothesis of capes (and breeches) suggests that Anaiyella is 'hero', and that funny enough Ailil's horse is a 'hero' too, but not Ailil, herself is a hero-- in this war scene, just outside of Ebou Dar.


Note there are many, many 'heros' overall in the story. Other characters know to wear "capes" include:
  1. Tuon (Winter's Heart, Ch.14 twice; The Gathering Storm, Ch. 'Gambits')
  2. Davram Bashere (The Path of Daggers, Chapter 21 "Answering the Summons"
  3. Anaiyella (The Path of Daggers, Chapter 23)
  4. Ailil's smoke-grey mare-- but not Ailil herself (The Path of Daggers, Chapter Ch. 22 "Gathering Clouds")
  5. Rodrivar Tihera Captain of the Stone, in Tear (aPoD, Ch.21 "Answering the Summons")
  6. Valan Luca (tFoH book, on pages 187, 230, 233, 545, 547, 555)
  7. Lewin, who's Rand's distant Aiel relative (The Shadow Rising book, pg 291)


I suggest that both Weiramon and Ailil have taken orders at various times from Demandred and/or his pawns in the story.


In the conclusion, Mesaana's fashion clue of Demandred's locations, suggests he is indeed placed within the southern nations, and has taken actions within many of them. From Altara to Tear to Cairhien to Andor.
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Last edited by FelixPax; 01-14-2010 at 07:37 PM.
  #105  
Old 01-14-2010, 08:22 PM
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There are several quotes throughout the series to the effect that the best lace on the continent is manufactured in Murandy, which is another location which Demandred is suspected of using as a proxy power base.
 

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