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  #61  
Old 01-14-2010, 01:12 AM
nategator nategator is offline
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Why not a weave that creates an illusion of another weave while channeling? We know that they can maintain a face and even body illusions (Semi = Fake Tuon). Also, Mes usually has an illusion around her when talking to BA. So why not an illusion that is person is channeling through the oath rod? The people would "see" the fake weaves and feel the use of the OP, just not for what they think. Inverted weaves might have to be used to create the entire illusion maybe, but then you would need to fake the channeling feel as well, so it would make more sense if it's a straight up use of the OP. The weaves just look different.

As to why we have never seen a FS use this weave...well, when would have it been useful? Seems that it would be helpful, however, for someone trying to teach channeling...Nice bit of irony if Mes was saved by a weave she had mastered during her teaching days.

Easy, no pesky 1/2 lifespan, no need to get the rod back to take the oaths off or tell the truth, and you do not have to eat anyone.

Last edited by nategator; 01-14-2010 at 02:57 AM.
  #62  
Old 01-14-2010, 02:14 AM
nameless nameless is offline
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Originally Posted by Sukoto View Post
I just thought of something. Didn't all the AS un-swear their oaths before reswearing? Mesaana must have found a way around that part, since we know from Talene's experience that she couldn't have hidden the affects of unbinding herself from her oaths to the DO. Were they required to foreswear all oaths, or just "The Three Oaths"?
Mesaana swore her oaths to the Dark One in the Pit of Doom while communing with His Presence. I'd guess it takes something a great deal more powerful than the Oath Rod to release her from that. Her biggest problem in unswearing the Oaths is that she never actually used the binder in the first place so she'd need to fake the accompanying discomfort, but that should not have been too hard since she could just watch the Aes Sedai ahead of her and simulate whatever gasping, wailing, gnashing of teeth, etc. they underwent when it was her turn.
  #63  
Old 01-14-2010, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Luckers View Post
No, we see what happens with contradictory Oaths in tPoD when Pevara commands Zerah to say the story of the Reds setting up Logain was a lie (Zerah was bound to both obey Pevara and to not speak a lie). The result was she choked--and likely would have choked to death had not Pevara told her she needn't lie.
Ah, dammit, I had forgotten about that - it was this time last year when I reread.

Then again, we don't yet know the significance of the numbering on the oath rods, save that there's a large gap between the WT rod (number three) and Pevara's (number one hundred and something). Maybe if Mesaana somehow had access to number one or two the consequences would be different. Perhaps the numbering indicates an order of precedence, i.e. conflicting oaths sworn on higher numbered rods take precedence while on lower they cause choking.

That, of course, is pure wild speculation - the numbers could just as easily be the day they were made or the makers favourite numbers or part of the recipe for chocolate cake!

I do agree with those that say the salient part of BS's "hint" is defeating the oath rod rather than just the oaths. I don't think Mesaana would particularly wish to be bound to make no weapon with which one man may kill another, or not use the OP as a weapon except against the Shadow, any more than she would want to bound against lying. I should point out that the lifespan reduction should be of no consequence to the Chosen, however; they have eternal life thanks to the DO anyway, and half of eternity is still eternity.

I think "defeating" may also be a key point. Not evading; defeating. Using a "glove of air" seems like an evasion rather than a defeat. Mesaana needs to be able to beat the rod somehow, for the reasons stated above.
  #64  
Old 01-15-2010, 01:06 PM
Sukoto Sukoto is offline
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Originally Posted by nameless View Post
Mesaana swore her oaths to the Dark One in the Pit of Doom while communing with His Presence. I'd guess it takes something a great deal more powerful than the Oath Rod to release her from that. Her biggest problem in unswearing the Oaths is that she never actually used the binder in the first place so she'd need to fake the accompanying discomfort, but that should not have been too hard since she could just watch the Aes Sedai ahead of her and simulate whatever gasping, wailing, gnashing of teeth, etc. they underwent when it was her turn.
I really don't buy any idea of 'precedence' when it comes to the oath rod. If the Black Ajah's oaths can be undone with the oath rod, the Forsaken's oaths can, too. Remember, Rand cut Asmodean off from the DO using the OP. It makes sense that the Oath Rod can unbind the Forsaken's oaths to the DO. Of course Mesaana could fake being unbound from The Three Oaths, but she would had to have spoken words like, "I release myself from the Three Oaths." If she had said, "I release myself from all oaths," then she would not have been able to stop herself from screaming.
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  #65  
Old 01-15-2010, 02:30 PM
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When they are released of Oaths, it only affects those taken on the binder. Mesaana's oaths to the Dark One were not made on a binder, so she couldn't release herself from them using a binder. I don't think that she is even connected to the Dark One like you suggest; that connection was only Asmodean's protection from the taint on saidin, according to RJ.
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  #66  
Old 01-15-2010, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Sukoto View Post
I really don't buy any idea of 'precedence' when it comes to the oath rod. If the Black Ajah's oaths can be undone with the oath rod, the Forsaken's oaths can, too. Remember, Rand cut Asmodean off from the DO using the OP. It makes sense that the Oath Rod can unbind the Forsaken's oaths to the DO. Of course Mesaana could fake being unbound from The Three Oaths, but she would had to have spoken words like, "I release myself from the Three Oaths." If she had said, "I release myself from all oaths," then she would not have been able to stop herself from screaming.
The Oath Rod can be used to remove Oaths sworn on the Rod. There's no reason to think it would have any effect whatsoever on any other oaths any more than it would affect Compulsions, Warder Bonds or anything else completely unrelated to Binding. You're getting confused because the Black Ajah used to Oath Rod to swear their oaths to the Shadow. If they unBound themselves it would indeed remove those Oaths and hurt like hell in the process. The Forsaken would not be able to release themselves with the Oath Rod because they were never bound by the Oath Rod in the fist place.
  #67  
Old 01-15-2010, 04:58 PM
Sukoto Sukoto is offline
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
When they are released of Oaths, it only affects those taken on the binder. Mesaana's oaths to the Dark One were not made on a binder, so she couldn't release herself from them using a binder. I don't think that she is even connected to the Dark One like you suggest; that connection was only Asmodean's protection from the taint on saidin, according to RJ.
Out of curiosity, are there any quotes that support what you say about oaths and binders?

I wasn't suggesting that Mesaana was connected to the DO in the same way as Asmodean. The reference was meant to illustrate how the One Power can be used to undo what the Dark One can do, so there is no reason to believe that oaths to the Dark One are too powerful to be undone using the oath rod, or that they somehow take precedence and are not affected by the oath rod. Mesaana may not be connected to the DO in the same way as Asmodean was, but there must be a connection. Otherwise, how could Shaidar Haran know her exact location to just pop in on her like that? He only seems to do that to the Chosen. It strongly suggests a connection. And because we know that the Chosen have all 'sworn to the Great Lord', it makes sense that Mesaana would be connected or bound to the DO in some way by an oath.

And what is the explanation for Talene? Do you think the Black Ajah oaths are taken on an oath rod? Verin didn't mention anything about swearing her oaths to the DO on an oath rod. It seems like she would have mentioned it if she had. All she said was that they were quite binding when placed on one who can channel. Also, IIRC, Verin wasn't sure if the oath rod would undo her oath to the DO or not, also further suggesting that it probably wasn't made on an oath rod. We know Talene was released from her oath to the DO using the oath rod. She was able to reveal her secrets before the hour of her death. It might be possible, though it doesn't seem likely, that the BA oaths are taken on an oath rod. I don't recall reading anything in the books to that effect. But we do know they can be undone using an oath rod. And the effect is very painful.
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  #68  
Old 01-15-2010, 06:08 PM
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Yes, Black Ajah swear Oaths on the Oath rod. This is why they too get the ageless look. I don't care to look it up to answer such an uninteresting question, but other Black Ajah have thought to themselves about forsaking the three Oaths and replacing them with a new trinity.

The oaths that the Forsaken swear to the Dark One are sworn in person at Shayol Ghul, and have nothing to do with the Oath Rod.

The oaths that normal darkfriends swear to the Dark One that remove certain protections and give the mark seen by Fain are apparently as simple as just swearing to serve the Dark One, and can be done anywhere, and also have nothing to do with the Oath Rod.
 

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