art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (1): lschullarma,

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 12: The Gathering Storm
User Name
Password

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 02-11-2010, 03:32 AM
FellKnight FellKnight is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9
FellKnight is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathjester View Post
The Seanchen currently in Randland are the forerunners not "the return."
Yes, they are the return. As of Book 9 and "What a Veil Hides", Tuon led "The Corenne", which translates as "The Return".

High Lord Turak and then High Lady Suroth were commanders of "Hailene" or "Those who come before", aka "The Forerunners"

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathjester View Post
I do not see Tuon and Mat battling Rand and the Aes Sedai for control of the mainland. If she did fight Rand and the servants/guardians(male and female Aes Sedai)with her current forces she would be destroyed as the male channelers have taken no oaths.
Perhaps at one point, but now that the Seanchan have Travelling...

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathjester View Post
Perhaps the Aes Sedai will be the Guardians, and Servants of the new peaceful Empire led by Tuon.
I can't see the cluebat being given any harder than when we are tol repeatedly about the name Aes Sedai meaning "Servants of All", and Asha'man meaning "Guardians". Those are clearly the two groups of whom the prophecy speaks.

Welcome, though.

Fell
  #102  
Old 02-11-2010, 05:34 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is online now
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,863
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FellKnight View Post
Yes, they are the return. As of Book 9 and "What a Veil Hides", Tuon led "The Corenne", which translates as "The Return".
I think that a better, more conclusive, statement can be found here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoD, Chapter 38, Remember the old Saying
Suroth hissed, gripping her pleated blue skirts in her fists before she could stop her hands. She would not let the man make her show emotion! “You overstep yourself, Galgan,” she said coldly. “I command the Forerunners. For the time being, I command the Return. You will sign no orders without my approval.”
“You commanded the Forerunners, who have been subsumed into the Return,” he replied calmly, and Suroth tasted bitterness. The news from the Empire had emboldened him. With the Empress dead, Gal-gan intended to make himself the first Emperor in nine hundred years. It seemed he would have to die by tonight. “As for you commanding the Return-” He cut off at the sound of heavy boots from the corridor.
  #103  
Old 02-11-2010, 08:25 AM
Casabamelon's Avatar
Casabamelon Casabamelon is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 252
Casabamelon has a brilliant futureCasabamelon has a brilliant futureCasabamelon has a brilliant futureCasabamelon has a brilliant futureCasabamelon has a brilliant futureCasabamelon has a brilliant futureCasabamelon has a brilliant futureCasabamelon has a brilliant futureCasabamelon has a brilliant futureCasabamelon has a brilliant futureCasabamelon has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post

<SNIP>
Damn you, Terez. My heart started racing as I imagined everything as I read your post. Then I remembered we're not going to get a book this year.

First the mirror, now this... you're shaving years off my life.
________
GANG BANG PARTY

Last edited by Casabamelon; 04-04-2011 at 09:09 AM.
  #104  
Old 02-11-2010, 08:56 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,129
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

hahaha, sorry!
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #105  
Old 02-11-2010, 11:58 AM
deathjester deathjester is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 13
deathjester is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Thanks for the welcome Terez, and you make many good points.

The balefire thing, I agree on. I should have phrased that better. It could be Shara, or anywhere besides the mainland for that matter. I have also thought that it may be behind the reason for the unraveling of the pattern (ghosts, people from other ages being seen). Then you have a camp that says the Dragon and the land are one, like Arthur, which is the reason for the pattern going loco, and maybe Demanded hasn't used Balefire yet. Count me in the former camp.

I agree that Tuon may channel at one point as she trained damane. Mat's biggest contribution will be modern warfare, cannons. I don't see him doing that against his wife, or for her against his own people. I don't think they will be ready in time for the battle against the dark one, anyways.

We know that before Book 6 Demandred probably already had a major plan under way. When he meets the Dark one at the start of book 6, he says something like Rand is split in too many directions and says "I..", and it cut off by the Dark One. So he is somehwere, doing something. What we do know is he is a military genius, and like the other Forsaken he is building an army somewhere, and working on something big.

It isn't until the start of book 6, that he is derailed from whatever he is going to do by the Dark One. The Dark One asks him to use balefire in his name. He may or may not be named Naeblis at this time (which could be a lie by the Dark One anyways). At the end of Book 6, he asks the Dark One if he has done well. So whatever the assignment was, he has done it, or was working on it in book 6.

Whether his assignment was destroying the pattern by leveling cities in Shara, or setting up Taim to work with Rand, or both, we don't know. We do know that this is the time that Taim introduces himself to Rand.

Now that the Dark One's assingment is done, and Ishmael is reincarnated I believe Demandred goes back to his original plan with Messana and Semirhage, working on the Seanchen Empire. The empress dies, and you have the largest known standing military force in the world just sitting there. It isn't like they are exactly far away. There are people from Falme that have already returned to the Seanchen Mainland by book 5. I don't see how Demandred can pass that up, especially since he has worked with Semirhage since the war of power, and surely knows about it.

If I remember right before the last battle Rand must kneel to the Crystal throne. Is he doing to do this knowing that war is on the other side of victory against the Dark One, and that is a temporary alliance at best? Maybe. Or does he do it to ally himself with Tuon against the main Seanchen military force that we have yet to see, because he sees good leadership qualities in her.

It is fun to theorize regardless. Series has been a huge part of my life, since the day I walked into a bookstore and saw the cover for Wheel of Time when I was a kid. I have got my sisters to read it and many friends. Many of those friends had never read a "fantasy book" in their life. My sister can now say "Twilight Sucks". lol.

However it ends, I am sure it will be awesome and well thought out. Robert Jordan always seemed to think of everything. Will Ishmael turn to the light? Is Logain going to take over in the last battle, or is it rather just the male Aes Sedai that he is going to take over.

At this point we aren't certain of a whole lot, except that Moraine should be back, and Galad and Berlain will hook up lol. I think The Dark One has been setting up a hammer and an anvil. The Seanchan to the South led be Demandred as the hammer, and a Anvil to the North led by Ishmael, with a corrupted Black tower seems almost too much for the light to overcome to me. Ishmael would have to turn to the light I think, for them to have a chance. If Ishmael doesn't turn, then the forces of good will be almost completely wiped out, and would not be able to fight Tuon and a full return of the Seanchen anyways, unless the male channelers pull a Dumai's well, and that is not something I think Rand is prepared to do. When defeating the Dark one was his goal, anything went. After he is deafeated? Not so much.

RAFO I guess. Either way it looks as if the Seanchen vs the mainland is the last climax in this book. Is Tuon on the side of Rand or against him. I would like to think she is with them.

Last edited by deathjester; 02-11-2010 at 12:11 PM.
  #106  
Old 02-11-2010, 12:30 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is online now
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,863
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathjester View Post
If I remember right before the last battle Rand must kneel to the Crystal throne.
That is almost certainly a distortion in the Seanchan version of the Prophecies of the Dragon. Generally this is ascribed to Ishamael, who in that way made sure that the Seanchan and Rand won't be able to reach agreement.
  #107  
Old 02-11-2010, 09:38 PM
Ishara's Avatar
Ishara Ishara is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,424
Ishara has disabled reputation
Send a message via MSN to Ishara
Default

p.s. I like the new guy.

And Gonzo, we know that there's a distortion. It's not likely. Didn't BS say something somewhere on the tour that led to a sneaky suspicion that it may not be as distorted as we think though?
__________________
Courage my friends, it's not too late for a better world. -- Tommy Douglas

Rand: You are an insensitive bastard!!!
Mat: And you ruined another hat!


It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by lightening. -- Calvin

"Gee, I wish I could do magic! Maybe I'll try!" --SDog

Official Vixen of Theoryland and Theoryland Siren

Grain Goddess, the Rood Inverse, the Mad Glomper
  #108  
Old 02-11-2010, 09:47 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,129
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Well, some would probably argue that he's just trying to keep us from knowing for sure which prophecies are corrupted. Important thing is, Tuon thinks Rand has to kneel to her for them to have a chance of winning. That will have to be dealt with regardless of whether or not the prophecy is true.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #109  
Old 02-14-2010, 03:01 PM
Daekyras's Avatar
Daekyras Daekyras is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,772
Daekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Welcome to Theoryland, jester.

There is one small thing that you overlooked....or two small things, really. In the Old Tongue, Aes Sedai means 'servants of all' and Asha'man means 'guardians of truth' or some such. So this is playing into RJ's theme of a balance between saidar and saidin that has been missing for the last 3500 years.

It is very, very possible that 'the great battle' does not refer to the Last Battle at all. It very specifically does not say 'last battle', and after some consideration, I have come to the conclusion that it most likely does not refer to the Last Battle, but rather to the much-anticipated Battle of Caemlyn, which will be the culmination of the Arthurian parallels. No doubt the Seanchan will be involved.

Aldeshar was the last nation to fall to Hawkwing, and its last king was Ishara's grandfather. With the Arthurian twisted family tree theme going on, all of the important players are tied to Andor, and to the legacy of Aldeshar. Just by those that are descended from Ishara: Rand, the Dragon Reborn; Elayne, the current heir of Ishara; Galad, Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks; Gawyn, soon-to-be Warder and husband to the Amyrlin Seat. Saying nothing about Luc, as he's on the wrong side, these family connections are a big part of what will make the north and the east as one (which could give a whole new meaning to Elaida's Foretelling aside from the obvious, that Rand is the key to winning the Last Battle).

Mat also remembers being the general of the army of Aldeshar, the Golden Lions, in the battle where Hawkwing finally defeated them. Perrin MIGHT POSSIBLY be the rebirth of a king of Aldeshar (he has something resembling a past life memory in Tel'aran'rhiod and sees himself wearing a gilded helmet shaped like a golden lion, though Neil insists that Lanfear put that on him). The banner of the High Lady Tuon was two golden lions harnessed to an ancient war-cart, which might possibly be a remembrance of Hawkwing's cruel treatment of Aldeshar after its fall.

So, the Battle of Caemlyn seems to be a good place for the final confrontation between the north/east alliance and the Seanchan, especially considering that Caemlyn is where Mat is going to go when he returns from Ghenjei with Moiraine, and Mat is bound to be tied up in that confrontation. There is a possibility here for 1) Tuon to channel, in desperation of course....to defend Mat maybe? and 2) for Mat to sport raven tattoos, if he's going to. Also, there's the theory that Min's vision of a 'severed hand, not hers' for Elayne is the Band of the Red Hand. There is some foreshadowing of this on the trip to Ebou Dar, when Mat's men fall in love with Elayne, and she inspects his troops daily, giving Mat orders to do things that she knows he will do anyway. We know that Mat will probably leave the Band in Caemlyn, and it's assumed that Elayne will have need of them while he is at Ghenjei.

Finally, there is the Black Tower, which just happens to be hanging out not far from Caemlyn. We know there will be a confrontation there, and that during this confrontation, Rand will at the very least appear to die, and that Logain will step up in his place to lead the Asha'man. Or, we might as well know that, from Egwene's dream of Logain stepping over something like a paper puppet of Rand's dead body, to mount a black stone that just happens to sound a lot like Taim's addressing stone (which MIGHT POSSIBLY be made of Shayol Ghul rock!), and of course we know about Logain's glory from Min.

Add all this to the fact that, at the Battle of Camlann, Arthur fought Mordred, who has parallels in Moridin, Mordeth, and Demandred....it could get very interesting indeed!

It has been theorized before that Demandred has been using a lot of balefire, and one might argue that the deterioration of reality has something to do with that. And just because RJ said we won't see much of Shara doesn't mean that Demandred hasn't been using balefire there. There are conflicting reports from RJ on this....some reporters say he confirmed that Demandred was using lots of balefire to destroy the Pattern, and some say that RJ said that was not true. Brandon said that the Dark One was the cause of the degeneration of reality, but that might be an Aes Sedai way of saying that he ordered the Forsaken (like Demandred) to do it. However, it's entirely possible that it really is the Dark One more or less directly touching the Pattern, and that Demandred stopped using balefire so much when he found out he wasn't going to get named Nae'blis. Hard to say, really.

In any case, Demandred has been heavily involved with the Black Tower probably since its inception, and Moridin has also been involved, since his return. I have a feeling that the confrontation between Moridin and Rand will actually happen during the Black Tower mess, and that Rand will somehow shed his blood on Shayol Ghul rock in the process (might involved Traveling somewhere, but it's not as if he and Ishamael didn't do that before), and that Min's vision of Rand and Moridin seeming to merge, and one of them dying, will happen then. Rand's body is a paper puppet because even though he is dead, he can be brought back (via Nynaeve ripping him out). No one will realize it, though...just a few people anyway....so everyone will think that their only hope of winning the Last Battle is lost. And of course, like good and noble Lightfriends, they will fight anyway. Likely, by the time they get around to blowing the Horn, Nynaeve will have done her thing, and Rand won't show up with the other Heroes, and that's when everyone will realize he's still alive.

As to Taim having been turned....it's not really necessary, but it's possible. We know he's a Darkfriend, but for all we know he has been one all along; certain things certainly seem to point to it.

In any case, I think you might have gotten it backwards on the great battle/world not done with battle. Just my opinion, but I am starting to think I might known what I'm talking about, lol.
Terez, this is why I love you!
__________________
You know what is comparable to LotR? Dragonlance. -Toss the Dice

He just got carried away a bit this time, probably as a result of his marriage-gonzothegreat

Son of Nazbaque, Lord of Fire
  #110  
Old 02-14-2010, 07:01 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,129
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

lol, pleasure to serve.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
 

Tags
demandred


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.