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  #1  
Old 03-12-2010, 09:48 PM
JanDSedai JanDSedai is offline
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Default Slayer and Moridrand

There has been alot of talk about Rand and Moridin switching bodies. But what if they are not switching bodies? Maybe it is more like the way that Isam and Luc became fused together.

I don't have any quotes to back this up, but we don't know if Isam and/or Luc were channelers. And the body swap theory is too "left-field" for serious consideration. But we have precedence for the merging of personalities in Slayer.

Don't know how we could prove or disprove, except to RAFO.
  #2  
Old 03-12-2010, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JanDSedai View Post
There has been alot of talk about Rand and Moridin switching bodies. But what if they are not switching bodies? Maybe it is more like the way that Isam and Luc became fused together.
That's what many of us here believe. As a matter of fact, the wording of the 'Dark Prophecy' is very similar to the wording of Min's viewing (one did live, and one did die; one of you dies, and one doesn't). I think that the issue will be resolved when Rand dies. Neil was previously leaning toward the fusion being permanent, with Rand ending up in Moridin's body via that fusion, but I think he is leaning more toward the theory I favor now (that he'll die, severing the fusion with the help of Alivia somehow, and then he'll be ripped out by Nynaeve).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan
And the body swap theory is too "left-field" for serious consideration.
I agree.
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  #3  
Old 03-13-2010, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JanDSedai View Post
I don't have any quotes to back this up, but we don't know if Isam and/or Luc were channelers. And the body swap theory is too "left-field" for serious consideration. But we have precedence for the merging of personalities in Slayer.
Luc was of the Andorian royal family. And it seems channeling genes run somewhat strongly in that line. So he is the likely candidate for channeling. But that's not concrete evidence. And we cant underestimate the DO's expertise in genetic engineering too!

Your theory on body swapping might be correct but it faces a serious complication - Rand/LTT is already a dual personality. Whether LTT is real or not, it argues against the stability of the relationship though Rand still seems sane, even if only by a hair at times. But has Moridin ever been sane? Is Slayer sane?

Such a merger may well bring about Rand's descent into madness and another breaking of the world.
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  #4  
Old 03-13-2010, 07:18 AM
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Have you read TGS yet greatwolf? Also, with the Moridin 'merge', I think that insanity is probably the least of Rand's worries.
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  #5  
Old 03-14-2010, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Have you read TGS yet greatwolf? Also, with the Moridin 'merge', I think that insanity is probably the least of Rand's worries.
I thought the post should be non spoilerish for those who haven't read it (??)

Besides, some of those things are still assumptions. There could be a number of causes even things we haven't seen on screen yet.
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  #6  
Old 03-14-2010, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
I thought the post should be non spoilerish for those who haven't read it (??)
This is the TGS forum. By now, it is fairly safe to assume that anyone who is reading posts here has also read the book, or doesn't mind getting spoilers anyway.
The first few days (weeks) that was different, since then people were still reading, or even trying to find a store where they could actually purchase the book.

Quote:
Besides, some of those things are still assumptions. There could be a number of causes even things we haven't seen on screen yet.
Well, yes. Obviously, the merger has taken place now, since the announced merger was that between Rand and LTT. The Moridin thing is just red herring.
  #7  
Old 03-14-2010, 04:52 AM
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From my body swap thread.

Why a Swap? Why Not a Merge?

The Merge Theory, that Rand and Moridin will merge in a similar way to Mordeth and Fain, or Luc and Isam, was mostly based in Min's viewing of two men blurring together. In my opinion that prophecy was resolved in Threads of Gold, but since not everyone agrees I'll cover this issue.

Firstly, a merge would not resolve the requirements which were the original reason for suggesting the Body Swap. Rand would not be dead yet alive; he would not have killed himself with Alivia's aid, and so on.

Secondly, a merge is made implausible by the nature of the link itself. Yes, thoughts are crossing, but at all stages Rand and Moridin remain completely distinct--in KoD Rand thinks that he could reach out and touch Moridin, showing a clear sense of Moridin's dimensions--the boundaries where he ends and Rand begins. In tGS the link is active so strongly it pulls Rand out through his wards, yet there is not even the slightest indication that their souls might be blurring together. Each man remains distinct from the other.
  #8  
Old 03-14-2010, 11:56 AM
Neilbert Neilbert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers View Post
Firstly, a merge would not resolve the requirements which were the original reason for suggesting the Body Swap. Rand would not be dead yet alive; he would not have killed himself with Alivia's aid, and so on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGH
Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now
course, and kill.
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
Explain again how a merge doesn't satisfy dead and yet alive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
Secondly, a merge is made implausible by the nature of the link itself.
Ok Mr. Jordan. Would you mind telling us how the series ends while you're at it? Or who really killed Asmodean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
Yes, thoughts are crossing, but at all stages Rand and Moridin remain completely distinct.
More than thoughts are crossing. Morridin, at least, feels Rand's physical pain. You should know this. Rand's emotional state closely mirrors Morridins. Rand has taken to wearing black and red IIRC (only read TGS once before passing it on).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
yet there is not even the slightest indication that their souls might be blurring together.
Showing up in each other's dreams without trying = not even the slightest indication that their souls might be blurring together. Got it.

It's pretty clear you have not thought this through. Your objections are easily countered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
Each man remains distinct from the other.
Morridin's hand just hurts because he burnt it pulling a pizza out of his stove.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanDSedai
I don't have any quotes to back this up, but we don't know if Isam and/or Luc were channelers.
No info on channeling, but Luc was Rand's half brother.

Last edited by Neilbert; 03-14-2010 at 12:15 PM.
  #9  
Old 03-14-2010, 12:50 PM
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As far as saying that channeling runs strong in the royal andoran line. This is not exactly true. Remember Rand has 0 blood relation with morgase and Elayne. Rands mother was married to Elaynes father 20+ years ago. The only channelers in the royal line proper are morgase and Elayne.
  #10  
Old 03-14-2010, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Neilbert View Post
No info on channeling, but Luc was Rand's half brother.
Could you explain that to me, preferably using some simple pictures and such?

Based on what I remember of the story, Luc was (is, whatever tense applies to his situation) the brother of Rand's mother. For him to also be his half brother would require Janduin to have been in Caemlyn quite a bit earlier than we know he crossed the Dragonwall. Not impossible, I grant you, but not a certainty either.
It would mean that Luc killed his own father, which is a neat effect, I'll grant you that.
  #11  
Old 03-14-2010, 01:34 PM
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Luc was Rand's uncle. Galad is his half-brother. The supposition is that when Janduin went to the Blight and met Luc, he could not strike because Luc looked so much like his dead wife (Tigriane).

Luc knows of the relationship between him and Rand. In Far Madding, he refers to his nephew.
  #12  
Old 03-14-2010, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Could you explain that to me, preferably using some simple pictures and such?
Uh... the pictures would be very dirty and you are a naughty person for asking for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzo
For him to also be his half brother would require Janduin to have been in Caemlyn quite a bit earlier than we know he crossed the Dragonwall.
The man was a player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanDSedai
Luc knows of the relationship between him and Rand. In Far Madding, he refers to his nephew.
This would be correct, if Janduin were not such a globe trotting womanizer.
  #13  
Old 03-14-2010, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by halo6819 View Post
As far as saying that channeling runs strong in the royal andoran line. This is not exactly true. Remember Rand has 0 blood relation with morgase and Elayne. Rands mother was married to Elaynes father 20+ years ago. The only channelers in the royal line proper are morgase and Elayne.
How many royal families have that much in the series? The terms I used are relative. And the andoran line suffered the death of several sons in the early days IIRC. Besides I don't recall Gwayn or Galad failing the test for channeling yet.
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  #14  
Old 03-14-2010, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
How many royal families have that much in the series? The terms I used are relative. And the andoran line suffered the death of several sons in the early days IIRC. Besides I don't recall Gwayn or Galad failing the test for channeling yet.
true to gwayn and galad, as to other families there is the royal line of manetheren, which produced nyneave, egwene, the cauthon girls, and two dozen more.

well maybe saying the royal line of manetheren is a bit much as we dont know if the last two had any children and whether any of them survived if they did, but i like to think everyone in emonds field is slightly related to them.
  #15  
Old 03-17-2010, 05:15 PM
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true to gwayn and galad, as to other families there is the royal line of manetheren, which produced nyneave, egwene, the cauthon girls, and two dozen more.

well maybe saying the royal line of manetheren is a bit much as we dont know if the last two had any children and whether any of them survived if they did, but i like to think everyone in emonds field is slightly related to them.
Related? But those guys having been marrying each other for centuries? Are you suggesting....
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Last edited by greatwolf; 03-17-2010 at 05:19 PM.
  #16  
Old 03-17-2010, 05:18 PM
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Related? But those guys having been marrying each other for centuries? Are you suggesting....
Nah, don't worry. You've forgotten to take all those merchant's guards into consideration is all.
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Old 04-14-2010, 07:14 AM
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When Egwene and Elayne get spied upon in Tel'aran'hroid in WH by someone who looked like Rand's uncle, he's described as very tall and with reddish hair. I'd always assumed that Rand's the height and hair colour came from his Aiel ancestry (Janduin) and not from his Andor lineage, but there it's implied that Luc also has these attributes.

Any comments? I assume it was RJ's method of saying 'that was Slayer'.
  #18  
Old 04-14-2010, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by mickle View Post
When Egwene and Elayne get spied upon in Tel'aran'hroid in WH by someone who looked like Rand's uncle, he's described as very tall and with reddish hair. I'd always assumed that Rand's the height and hair colour came from his Aiel ancestry (Janduin) and not from his Andor lineage, but there it's implied that Luc also has these attributes.

Any comments? I assume it was RJ's method of saying 'that was Slayer'.
Aiel coloring and that of the Andoran royal line are quite similar.
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Old 04-14-2010, 09:26 AM
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There's a vague suggestion that the Andoran royal line might be descended from Rand's Aiel line:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 26 - The Dedicated

Adan lay in the sandy hollow clutching his dead son's weeping children, shielding their eyes against his ragged coat. Tears rolled down his face, too, but silently, as he peered cautiously over the edge. At five and six, Maigran and Lewin deserved the right to cry; Adan was surprised he had any tears left, himself.

Some of the wagons were burning. The dead lay where they had fallen. The horses had already been driven off, except for those still hitched to a few wagons that had been emptied onto the ground. For once he took no notice of the crated things the Aes Sedai had given into Aiel charge, toppled carelessly into the dirt. It was not the first time he had seen that, or dead Aiel, but this time he could not care. The men with the swords and spears and bows, the men who had done the killing, were loading those empty wagons. With women. He watched Rhea, his daughter, shoved up into a wagon box with the others, crowded together like animals by laughing killers. The last of his children. Elwin dead of hunger at ten, Sorelle at twenty of fever her dreams told her was coming, and Jaren, who threw himself off a cliff a year ago, at nineteen, when he found he could channel. Marind, this morning.

He wanted to scream. He wanted to rush out there and stop them from taking his last child. Stop them, somehow. And if he did rush out? They would kill him, and take Rhea anyway. They might well kill the children, too. Some of those bodies sprawled in their own blood were small.

Maigran clutched at him as if she sensed he might leave her, and Lewin stiffened as if he wanted to hold tighter but thought himself too old. Adan smoothed their hair and kept their faces pressed against his chest. He made himself watch, though, until the wagons wheeled away surrounded by whooping riders, after the horses that were already almost out of sight toward the smoking mountains that lined the horizon.

Only then did he stand up, prying the children loose. "Wait here for me," he told them. "Wait until I come back." Clinging to each other, they stared at him with tear-stained white faces, nodded uncertainly.
He walked out to one of the bodies, rolled her over gently. Siedre could have been asleep, her face just the way it appeared beside him when he woke each morning. It always surprised him to notice gray in her red-gold hair; she was his love, his life, and ever young and new to him. He tried not to look at the blood soaking the front of her dress or the gaping wound below her breasts.
It's vague, but a few points:

1. His wife had red-gold hair; his daughter Rhea probably did as well.

2. They had reached the Aryth Coast some years before, probably around World's End, and headed south. They appear to be near the Mountains of Mist, so the geography is about right.

3. Rhea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
Most often Rhea's symbol is a pair of lions, the ones that pulled her celestial chariot and were seen often, rampant, one on either side of the gateways through the walls to many cities in the ancient world.
Okay, so it's not that vague after all. Yay for twisted family trees...

But the symbology actually fits Tuon better. That's just RJ's style - we all know that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 14 - What a Veil Hides

Bowing her head to the Blood, Tuon climbed to the quarter deck followed by the two Deathwatch Guards. The wind made handling her cape difficult, and pressed her veil against her face one moment, then flailed it over her head the next. It did not matter; that she wore it was sufficient. Her personal banner, two golden lions harnessed to an ancient war-cart, flew at the stern above the six helmsmen struggling to control the long tiller. The Raven-and-Roses would have been packed away as soon as the first crewman to see her veil could pass the word. Kidron's captain, a wide, weathered woman with white hair and the most incredible green eyes, bowed as Tuon's slipper touched the quarterdeck then immediately returned her attention to her ship.
But we have discussed before that Aldeshar was the last nation to fall to Hawkwing (and Perrin's lion's helm dream might well be an inkling of a past life as its last king....Mat remembers being its last general), so it' s likely that Tuon's banner originates with the pride of having defeated Aldeshar...and of course Aldeshar's last king was Ishara's grandfather.

Oh, and of course Rhea is the mother of Zeus, who is often paralleled to Thor (al'Thor). That's getting really vague, but Perrin got the hammer of course.
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Last edited by Terez; 04-14-2010 at 09:51 AM.
  #20  
Old 04-14-2010, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JanDSedai View Post
Luc was Rand's uncle. Galad is his half-brother. The supposition is that when Janduin went to the Blight and met Luc, he could not strike because Luc looked so much like his dead wife (Tigriane).

Luc knows of the relationship between him and Rand. In Far Madding, he refers to his nephew.
OK. I need a re-read of that. I assumed it was Isam talking about Lan.
 

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