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Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 12: The Gathering Storm
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  #101  
Old 01-22-2010, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri33 View Post
And as I've pointed out earlier, there are very plausable explanations for the difference--Perrin had a choice, Mat did not.
It wasn't really necessary to repeat yourself. The point was to demonstrate that the dreams do not necessarily have the same interpretation, just because similar symbolism was used; your opinion isn't relevant to that point.

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Originally Posted by w
As far as I know anything about the Seanchan it is impossible for the Nine Moons to be married with a so'jhin.
Not impossible, exactly. No one of the Blood would ever marry property - property can only marry other property, and so'jhin, being at the top of the da'covale hierarchy, only marry other so'jhin - but Tuon is already married to Mat. If he become property by virtue of having gotten tattoos a la the drunken lord and lady, then of course she probably has the right to declare the marriage null and pretend as if it never happened. But would she? The development of her character strongly suggests that she would probably rather cut off her left arm. She wants Mat back, and she's starting to realize that she is in love with him. Then, of course, there is the conflict, because she would probably rather cut off her right arm than be married to property. The conflict is the important part, and it's not just present in Tuon's character, but in Mat's as well; he represents the ideal free man, despite his many experiences with subjugation throughout the series.
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  #102  
Old 01-23-2010, 01:42 AM
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I hope you laughed as loud about my theory as I did about yours. The idea Matt to become a so'jhin made me realy laugh. As far as I know anything about the Seanchan it is impossible for the Nine Moons to be married with a so'jhin.
By the way; Odin was accompanied by two raven as well. They were bcalled Hugin and Munin.
Hugin and Munin translate to "Thought" and "Memory" in English, hence the inscription on Matt's spear. While Odin was hanging from the World Tree the settled on his shoulders to peck at him and whispered secrets in his ear, which is why I believe the dream refers to Matt hanging from the Tree of Life to gain Thought and Memory. The consensus of everyone else seems to be that dreams follow symbolism set up within the series itself rather than the Norse mythology the books draw upon and that the ravens therefore refer to either Seanchan or Shadow and not to Matt's hanging or becoming the 3rd Age incarnation of the Gallows God.
  #103  
Old 01-23-2010, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by nameless View Post
Hugin and Munin translate to "Thought" and "Memory" in English, hence the inscription on Matt's spear. While Odin was hanging from the World Tree the settled on his shoulders to peck at him and whispered secrets in his ear, which is why I believe the dream refers to Matt hanging from the Tree of Life to gain Thought and Memory.
That might be good reasoning if not for the fact that RJ tends to twist parallels, and spread them over several events. Also, Egwene's dream was in Lord of Chaos, well after Mat got the ashandarei. None of her other dreams have been about the past.

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Originally Posted by nameless
The consensus of everyone else seems to be that dreams follow symbolism set up within the series itself rather than the Norse mythology the books draw upon....
I don't see how you come to that conclusion about the 'consensus'. I think that the ravens in that particular dream refer to both Odin's ravens and the Seanchan tattoos. The only reason I haven't been discussing the former much is because it doesn't have much relevance to the plot.
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  #104  
Old 04-22-2010, 03:21 AM
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I've a few thoughts. Perhaps the Prince of Ravens is supposed to be marked with the ravens, but is not considered property.

Or, considering Tuon's ascension to Empress, Mat has to be marked so, and considered property, lest he be considered equal to the Empress somehow, yet he'd still be placed high, perhaps second only to Tuon herself. I doubt that Tuon would even be able to control Mat in this manner, looking at Bayle Domon's relationship with Egeanin when he was a so'jihn. And Tuon might not even try to settle him down, after all.

For you people mentioning him being marked at the tower of Ghenjei, how are you making this connection?
  #105  
Old 04-29-2010, 12:06 PM
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I don't think he will actually get the tattoos (and I should know since I have the Raven tattoos LOL)... but he is surely already Imperial property (who isn't the property of their wife... especially in Randland) which fulfills the metaphorical meaning of the dream. The ravens are not marked on his skin, but deep inside him.

Last edited by heridfel; 04-29-2010 at 02:19 PM.
  #106  
Old 04-29-2010, 12:08 PM
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We don't think it's metaphorical simply because the dream specifically says that they sink into his flesh. It's the same thing Perrin saw when he saw the dragons sink into Rand's flesh in the Wolf Dream.

Also, Mat is certainly not considered property as it is. The notion would (and will) probably horrify Tuon. He's got to be marked as property in order for any paradigm shifts to occur.
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  #107  
Old 04-29-2010, 01:42 PM
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I do think it's metaphorical... and the part about ownership was a joke. Of course we will all RAFO.
  #108  
Old 04-29-2010, 02:05 PM
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maybe the detail that we missed has to do w/ RJ's inner dirty old man. after all, the risque stuff has definitely picked up steam since book 4. could be something that has to do w/ when min had to start wearing a dress for a while. it further ripped the pattern and rand's gonna have to do some in-depth study of her butt in pants in order to figure out how to fix it, and he'll stumble onto how to fix the bore while he's at it.
 

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da'covale, detail from 4-6, ghenjei, raven tattoos, so'jhin


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