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  #21  
Old 04-27-2010, 04:06 PM
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I'm trying to remember what I got RAFO'ed on, but it's just not coming to me.
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  #22  
Old 04-27-2010, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX View Post
I'm trying to remember what I got RAFO'ed on, but it's just not coming to me.
Guess we'll just have to MAFO.
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  #23  
Old 04-27-2010, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Sei'taer View Post
BTW, you got me in trouble with your Mom. What's with blaming me for the moonshine and the Chivas? Pops and Eclipse were the ones passing it to you, not me....
LOL... Don't look at me! I blamed Hopper.
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  #24  
Old 04-27-2010, 07:16 PM
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Ah! I remember what it was! It was: would we see any characters who were born in Shara or the Land of the Madmen. It was in relation to the semi-looney theory that Demandred is actually gathering male channelers from there.
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  #25  
Old 04-28-2010, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
The Rhuidean doorway probably hadn't been entered since the Age of Legends, and the Tower of Ghenjei probably hasn't been entered since around the time of Mat's latest memories (Hawkwing). No one even remembers how to get in; the only reason Olver knows is because he talked to Birgitte. How would Farstrider have known how to get in?
Didn't Slayer enter the Tower when Perrin was chasing him?
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  #26  
Old 04-28-2010, 08:27 AM
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Yes.
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  #27  
Old 04-28-2010, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
Yes.
I was talking to Tam about this yesterday. My thought was: how is Slayer tied to the Tower of Ghenjei? One of the reasons why I find the idea that Luc/Isam are a result of the Finns (as opposed to some bizarre Shadow thing, which is what I've always thought) so interesting.

Tam suggested that we don't actually have proof that he entered the Tower, that he may have simply stepped out of TAR instead of entering, leading Perrin to believe that he must enter this dangerous tower (per Birgitte). I don't have the books handy at the moment, but I suppose that's a good point.

However, I'm leaning towards the fact that Slayer did, in fact, enter the Tower, and that Matt, Thom and Noal may encounter Slayer in their quest to find Moiraine.
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  #28  
Old 04-28-2010, 10:09 AM
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that would make his "he had been given many gifts" quote make more sense. you could say mat was given many gifts as well..
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  #29  
Old 04-28-2010, 11:41 AM
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Seems more likely that Slayer has nothing to do with Ghenjei. There's no other evidence to tie them together.
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  #30  
Old 04-28-2010, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by halo6819 View Post
that would make his "he had been given many gifts" quote make more sense. you could say mat was given many gifts as well..
I agree. It's an interesting idea with merit. Not sure what we'll find out about that, if anything, though.
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  #31  
Old 04-28-2010, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 28 - To the Tower of Ghenjei
Two hundred feet the tower rose, and forty thick, gleaming like burnished steel. It might as well have been a solid column of metal. Perrin walked around it twice without seeing any opening, not so much as a crack, not even a mark on that smooth, sheer wall. The smell hung here, though, that cold, inhuman stink. The trail ended here. The man if man he was had gone inside somehow. He only had to find the way to follow.
Perrin assumes he went inside but I'm not so certain either. I smell a red herring
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  #32  
Old 04-28-2010, 12:47 PM
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I'm in class, but I'll try to sum this up properly:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 28 - To the Tower of Ghenjei

His prey ran ahead of him in strides that covered miles, never more than barely in sight. Out of the hills and across the tangled Westwood with its wide scattered farms, over cleared farmland, a quilt of hedged fields and small thickets, and past Watch Hill. It was odd to see the thatched village houses covering the hill with no people in the streets, and farmhouses standing as if abandoned. But he kept his eye on the man fleeing ahead of him. He had become so used to this pursuit that he felt no surprise when one leaping stride put him down on the south bank of the River Taren and the next amid barren hills without trees or grass. North and east he ran, over streams and roads and villages and rivers, intent only on the man ahead. The land grew flat and grassy, broken by scattered thickets, without any sign of man. Then something glittered ahead, sparkling in the sun, a tower of metal. His quarry sped straight for it, and vanished. Two leaps brought Perrin there as well.

Two hundred feet the tower rose, and forty thick, gleaming like burnished steel. It might as well have been a solid column of metal. Perrin walked around it twice without seeing any opening, not so much as a crack, not even a mark on that smooth, sheer wall. The smell hung here, though, that cold, inhuman stink. The trail ended here. The man if man he was had gone inside somehow. He only had to find the way to follow.

Stop! It was a raw flow of emotion that Perrin's mind put a word to. Stop!

He turned as a great gray wolf as tall as his waist, grizzled and scarred, alighted as if he had just leaped down from the sky. He might well have. Hopper had always envied eagles their ability to fly, and here, he could too. Yellow eyes met yellow eyes.

"Why should I stop, Hopper? He killed a wolf."

Men have killed wolves, and wolves men. Why does anger seize your throat like fire this time?

"I don't know," Perrin said slowly. "Maybe because it was here. I didn't know it was possible to kill a wolf here. I thought wolves were safe in the dream."

You chase Slayer, Young Bull. He is here in the flesh, and he can kill.

"In the flesh? You mean not just dreaming? How can he be here in the flesh?"

I do not know. It is a thing dimly remembered from long ago, come again as so much else. Things of the Shadow walk the dream, now. Creatures of Heartfang. There is no safety.

"Well, he's inside, now." Perrin studied the featureless metal tower. "If I can find how he got in, I can put an end to him."

Cub foolish, digging in a groundwasps' nest. This place is evil. All know this. And you would chase evil into evil. Slayer can kill.

Perrin paused. There was a sense of finality to the emotions his mind attached the word "kill" to. "Hopper, what happens to a wolf who dies in the dream?"

The wolf was silent for a time. If we die here, we die forever, Young Bull. I do not know if the same is true for you, but I believe it is.

"A dangerous place, archer. The Tower of Ghenjei is a bad place for h umankind."

Perrin whirled, half-raising his bow before he saw the woman standing a few paces away, her golden hair in a thick braid to her waist, almost the way women wore it in the Two Rivers, but more intricately woven. Her clothes were oddly cut, a short white coat and voluminous trousers of some thin pale yellow material gathered at the ankles above short boots. Her dark cloak seemed to hide something that glinted silver at her side.

She shifted, and the metallic flicker vanished. "You have sharp eyes, archer. I thought that the first time I saw you."

How long had she been watching? It was embarrassing that she had sneaked up without him hearing. At the least Hopper should have warned him. The wolf was lying down in the knee high grass, muzzle on his forepaws, watching him.

The woman seemed vaguely familiar, though Perrin was certain he would have remembered her had he ever seen her before. Who was she, to be in the wolf dream? Or was it Moiraine's Tel'aran'rhiod, too? "Are you Aes Sedai?"

"No, archer." She laughed. "I only came to warn you, despite the prescripts. Once entered, the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the world of men. Here it is all but impossible. You have a Bannerman's courage, which some say cannot be told from foolhardiness."

Impossible to leave? The fellow Slayer surely had gone in. Why would he do that if he could not leave? "Hopper said it's dangerous, too. The Tower of Ghenjei? What is it?"

Her eyes widened, and she glanced at Hopper, who still lay stretched out on the grass ignoring her and watching Perrin. "You can talk to wolves? Now that is a thing long lost in legend. So that is how you are here. I should have known. The tower? It is a doorway, archer, to the realms of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn." She said the names as if he should recognize them. When he looked at her blankly, she said, "Did you ever play the game called Snakes and Foxes?"

"All children do. At least, they do in the Two Rivers. But they give it up when they get old enough to realize there's no way to win."

"Except to break the rules," she said. " 'Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind.' "

"That's a line from the game. I don't understand. What does it have to do with this tower?"

"Those are the ways to win against the snakes and the foxes. The game is a remembrance of old dealings. It does not matter so long as you stay away from the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn. They are not evil the way the Shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be. They are not to be trusted, archer. Stay clear of the Tower of Ghenjei. Avoid the World of Dreams, if you can. Dark things walk."

"Like the man I was chasing? Slayer."

"A good name for him. This Slayer is not old, archer, but his evil is ancient." She almost appeared to be leaning slightly on something invisible; perhaps that silver thing he had never quite seen. "I seem to be telling you a great deal. I do not understand why I spoke in the first place. Of course. Are you ta'veren, archer?"
1. Perrin assumes that Slayer went in, partly because he disappeared, and partly because of the 'cold, inhuman smell' that indicates his trail ends there. However, it's likely that the 'Finns also smell inhuman. so that doesn't mean anything. Perrin has no way of knowing this, and he also has no way of knowing that Slayer can step out of Tel'aran'rhiod at any time (which is the only reason for his assumption that Slayer actually went in). Slayer knows this, so he most likely used Perrin's ignorance to try to lure him into the Tower where he wouldn't be able to get out.

2. Birgitte recognizes Slayer's ancient evil, but she does not tell us what it is. So, we the readers might assume at this point in the story that Slayer is connected to the 'Finns, when in fact he is just a creature of the Shadow. By the end of the book, we have enough information to connect Slayer to the Dark Prophecy, and we also know that he works for the Shadow.

3. Birgitte specifies that the 'Finns are not evil like the Shadow. She offers nothing to connect them, and she remembers the precepts before she really has a chance to clear up the confusion.

4. Mat, Rand, and Moiraine went in the Aelfinn doorway in ch. 15, and Mat went through the Eelfinn doorway in ch. 24. This passage serves as a way of giving us more information about the 'Finns, and it also serves to confuse us about what Slayer is, and which evil he serves. It also serves to introduce us to the fact that the Heroes can interact with living people in Tel'aran'rhiod, and to Birgitte specifically.

5. If there had been even the slightest bit of evidence after this point (18 years ago) that Slayer was connected to the 'Finns, then it would be different. But as it is, the only reasonable conclusion is that Slayer was trying to trick Perrin into entering and getting himself killed or trapped in 'Finnland forever.
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  #33  
Old 04-29-2010, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian View Post
It makes sense in a way. It is quite amusing to imagine the Ael'finn quizzing each other with flash cards.

"OK, this one you have to know!"
"Oh...oh...crap it's that red-haired one!"
I'd think they'd be more likely to use "flesh" cards...
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  #34  
Old 04-30-2010, 09:20 AM
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Yes.
No.

Last edited by Neilbert; 04-30-2010 at 09:25 AM.
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  #35  
Old 04-30-2010, 10:21 AM
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That's subjective. My vote is yes.
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  #36  
Old 04-30-2010, 10:30 AM
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That's subjective. My vote is yes.
While I agree with jwb and some others that there is no evidence that Slayer actually entered the Tower of Ghenjei, I believe there is enough circumstantial evidence regarding Slayer's powers and identity that suggest a relationship with the Finns, and thus I, too, am inclined to believe that he entered the Tower as Perrin chased him.
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  #37  
Old 05-01-2010, 02:30 PM
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The only circumstantial evidence I'm aware of is that he ran up to the tower of Genji. Is there something else you are referring to?
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