art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (3): nbogenrose, lschullarma, tfyhughtiffany,

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 12: The Gathering Storm
User Name
Password

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-03-2010, 02:43 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,128
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default Who draws it out shall follow after

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 21 - Into the Heart

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,
into the heart, to hold their hearts.
Who draws it out shall follow after,
What hand can grasp that fearful blade?
I believe this refers to Justice. Rand will kill Gawyn with Justice at the Battle of Caemlyn. Tam just posted my theory about that. Anyway, the Battle of Caemlyn will be between the Randland forces and the Seanchan. It's a reference to the Battle of Camlann from Arthurian legend, where King Arthur and Mordred (Morgase+Damodred=Mordred) kill each other simultaneously. There was already a parallel to this at Falme with Rand and Ishamael, but neither of them actually died. In this, both Gawyn and Rand will die.

Note that the prophecy avoids using a gender-specific pronoun by saying 'who draws it out'. Therefore, Tuon (the descendant of Hawkwing) will draw the sword out of Gawyn's heart. Her hand is the only one that can grasp that fearful blade.

That makes her Egwene's woman with a sword. We know that Egwene is going to bond Gawyn because if she doesn't, he's going to break her neck. So she'll be suffering from the loss of her Warder, for one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 20 - In the Night

She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well have been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawl*ing accent.

Egwene pushed the dream away as she would have a viper. She felt her body thrash, heard herself groan in her sleep, but for a moment she could do nothing. She had dreamed of the Seanchan before, of a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her. No! They had put a leash on her, made her damane. She would as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan! A very long time passed before she could address herself to calming her sleeping body. Or maybe it only seemed a long time. Not a Seanchan; never that!
When I was writing the 'Gawyn kills Rand' theory, I was figuring Egwene probably wouldn't be there. Looks like I was probably wrong about that.

I'll be revising that theory constantly I'm sure once I post it on my blog. That will probably be coming after finals (two weeks).

Edit: On second thought, Egwene still might not be there. She'll have her own drama in the Tower with Mesaana to deal with, and I have always thought that the someone that has to run 'fast enough' was Mat. But Tuon will get the sword at the Battle of Caemlyn. Perhaps they will go against the Black Tower together? Hard to say.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27

Last edited by Terez; 05-03-2010 at 05:08 AM.
  #2  
Old 05-03-2010, 09:56 AM
Anaiya Sedai's Avatar
Anaiya Sedai Anaiya Sedai is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,574
Anaiya Sedai has a brilliant futureAnaiya Sedai has a brilliant futureAnaiya Sedai has a brilliant futureAnaiya Sedai has a brilliant futureAnaiya Sedai has a brilliant futureAnaiya Sedai has a brilliant futureAnaiya Sedai has a brilliant futureAnaiya Sedai has a brilliant futureAnaiya Sedai has a brilliant futureAnaiya Sedai has a brilliant futureAnaiya Sedai has a brilliant future
Default

I always assumed that that propecy was talking about Callandor, and whoever rand sent to grab it from the floor he stuck it into.. but then I might be getting my details all mixed up.
__________________
----------
Flaming Haran. Hand of the Flame.
Founding Member of The Super Sexy Club
  #3  
Old 05-03-2010, 10:22 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,860
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Narishma, wasn't it?
You're making the same assumption that Rand is making, but then, what does he know of the Prophecies?
  #4  
Old 05-03-2010, 10:49 AM
Neilbert Neilbert is offline
Ancient
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,057
Neilbert has a brilliant futureNeilbert has a brilliant futureNeilbert has a brilliant futureNeilbert has a brilliant futureNeilbert has a brilliant futureNeilbert has a brilliant futureNeilbert has a brilliant futureNeilbert has a brilliant futureNeilbert has a brilliant futureNeilbert has a brilliant futureNeilbert has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I believe this refers to Justice. Rand will kill Gawyn with Justice at the Battle of Caemlyn.
I like this theory because Egwene suffers, and Gawyn does something useful for a change and then dies.

Also it has Tuon with a sword, how cool is that?
  #5  
Old 05-03-2010, 05:13 PM
ckparrothead ckparrothead is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 342
ckparrothead is a glorious beacon of lightckparrothead is a glorious beacon of lightckparrothead is a glorious beacon of lightckparrothead is a glorious beacon of lightckparrothead is a glorious beacon of lightckparrothead is a glorious beacon of lightckparrothead is a glorious beacon of light
Default

What if the reason Rand gets to live after he dies is because the Dark One himself revives him?

I guess it's easy to assume that if Rand dies, that = Dark One victory...but maybe it's not so. Maybe he needs Rand alive, and the fact that Rand has channeled the True Power gives the Lord of the Grave the ability to reincarnate him like he did Aginor, Balthamael, Ishamael, Lanfear, etc.

Anyway that was a great read on the whole Gawyn will kill Rand thing. Not sure if any of it will actually happen that way but still a great read.

And the theory about Mat's medallion being really important...I kind of like it.

I have wondered lately if that whole experience of Mat's with the foxes had been examined closely enough. I'm not sure if anyone has really examined closely what gifts that Mat received that answer his requests, and what price he paid. I think there's the obvious and shallow, but RJ has shown himself to be at times pretty averse to the obvious and shallow.

For instance, the stuff written on the spear, what if it's not just some cutesy rhyme?

"The Arrow of Time" is an important philosophical and scientific concept, related strongly to the second law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy (randomness) increases over time. That theory was challenged by Maxwell's Demon, a thought experiment that hypothesized a Demon in charge of a trap door between two gas containers of the same temperature, but that the Demon would only allow fast-moving particles to flow one way and slow-moving particles to flow the other way through the trap door, thus decreasing entropy (randomness) and violating the second law of thermodynamics.

I'm not going to pretend I know how this all relates to The Wheel of Time series, the Finns or the Dark One or anything like that...it's just an example of something that may not have been talked about or theorized about.

What if RJ decided that there would be two of Maxwell's Demons? The snakes give true answers, and thus decrease entropy. The foxes would therefore increase entropy...and one way they could certainly do that would be setting Mat on the path that would lead to the death of the Dragon Reborn (the medallion).
  #6  
Old 05-03-2010, 05:18 PM
ckparrothead ckparrothead is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 342
ckparrothead is a glorious beacon of lightckparrothead is a glorious beacon of lightckparrothead is a glorious beacon of lightckparrothead is a glorious beacon of lightckparrothead is a glorious beacon of lightckparrothead is a glorious beacon of lightckparrothead is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Of course, knowing the Wheel of Time community, I'm probably not going over anything new, but rather naively re-stumbling upon the third-most talked about theory in all of Jorandom about the Unified Theory of Randomness (there's that name, Rand) in the Wheel of Time.
  #7  
Old 05-03-2010, 07:40 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,128
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaiya Sedai View Post
I always assumed that that propecy was talking about Callandor, and whoever rand sent to grab it from the floor he stuck it into.. but then I might be getting my details all mixed up.
Rand tried to force the prophecy. The prophecy was good inspiration for what he did, but I've always sort of thought that Rand was probably wrong about that one. Go back and read it in the OP - that's all we get about it. Nothing about Callandor.

Also, I just thought of something better. I was having a hard time imagining how Tuon could get on the field to take the sword from Rand, and how she would 'follow after' when she's the Empress and she doesn't follow anyone. But what if Egeanin is the one to draw it out? She's got this whole plot development thing going on with Tuon, how she was forced into a situation where she had to betray the Empire, but really, she is like the most dedicated servant the Empire has ever had. She even still goes by Leilwin, even though she is no longer really required to do what Tuon says, because she is still a good little faithful Seanchan. She will go by Leilwin until Tuon says otherwise.

Also, Tuon was not at Falme. Egeanin was. There will also be a good number of other people around that were at Falme; Domon, Elayne, possibly Egwene, Min, Nynaeve, etc. Min and Nynaeve haven't yet recognized it, but if Egeanin brings it to their attention, they might. Possibly Mat and Moiraine, if they get back in time.

In any case, after Rand is dead, the need to make peace with the Seanchan will be even more acute. If Egeanin takes the sword to Tuon, she might have a chance of redeeming herself in Tuon's eyes. Tuon will also have at least one or two people on hand who were at Falme and can verify the identity of the sword.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #8  
Old 05-03-2010, 07:48 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,128
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckparrothead View Post
What if the reason Rand gets to live after he dies is because the Dark One himself revives him?
It's possible, but probably not preferable. I think that Rand's connection with Moridin, and him using the True Power, is a very, very bad thing. I think that's precisely why he has to die.

I figure that there is a reason for everything in the WoT world, and that the reason why Moghedien had to rip Birgitte out of Tel'aran'rhiod, the reason why Birgitte was compelled to break the precepts in Perrin's presence, was so that Nynaeve could learn how it was done, and 'heal' Rand's death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckp
And the theory about Mat's medallion being really important...I kind of like it.
Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckp
For instance, the stuff written on the spear, what if it's not just some cutesy rhyme?
We have known that it is not for some time. Odin hanged himself on a tree for knowledge, and he has two ravens named 'thought' and 'memory' that perch on his shoulders. I think that the obvious Odin parallels rather cleverly distract from the Judas parallel.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #9  
Old 05-03-2010, 07:57 PM
Basel Gill's Avatar
Basel Gill Basel Gill is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 701
Basel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant futureBasel Gill has a brilliant future
Default

I really like how this new theory and the next to newest (The Seed Singing theory) put a new perspective on how the story will end. I will never have the eye for detail that most of you do. These were both quite interesting!
__________________
Just because you are unique, does not mean you are useful.
  #10  
Old 05-03-2010, 08:17 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,128
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

I'm glad you liked it.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #11  
Old 05-03-2010, 08:46 PM
ShadowbaneX's Avatar
ShadowbaneX ShadowbaneX is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Far Side of Sanity, Canada
Posts: 3,751
ShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I'm not entirely sure I buy into this because a) it seems excessive, b) the second line doesn't make much sense with this interpretation & c) there's been no mention of it for quite a while.

With Callandor and the Stone, Rand's interpretation makes sense. He leaves callandor behind to prevent the Tairens from just forgetting about him.

The 'to hold their hearts' part, is where it seems to stumble to me. What does Rand and Gawyn killing each other accomplish that will hold people's hearts? Does them killing each other, and if your theory carries through, causes Egwene to have that bond snapping emotional spin, help those people work together or keep them on the path to Tarmon Gaidon? It would seem to me that it would hurt things.

Now, granted, from Tuon's thoughts in tGS, it's supposedly the Seanchan forces that are going to mop the floor and then Tuon's supposed to send Rand into face the DO, which might give your theory some weight, but then we don't know which parts of that are corrupted and which aren't, so that's grain of salt territory.
__________________
"Isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean all of you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh oooh oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick
My WoT collection.
  #12  
Old 05-03-2010, 09:14 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,128
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Well, Tuon's impression is that she is going to lead the forces of the Light to victory and 'send' the Dragon Reborn into the Pit of Doom to do the deed. If Rand is letting everyone believe that he is still dead, then Tuon leading the forces of the Light seems very likely, actually (with Mat as her general of course). After all, the Aelfinn told Rand that the truce has to happen before he can win.

I also wondered about the 'to hold their hearts' bit. Maybe some inspiration will come later, but really...that's the only bit I don't understand yet, and IMO, that means we're in good shape. All of the rest makes sense, especially with Egeanin thrown in the mix. But I will be brainstorming on this for a while. I come up with new ideas every hour or two, lol.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #13  
Old 05-03-2010, 09:48 PM
ShadowbaneX's Avatar
ShadowbaneX ShadowbaneX is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Far Side of Sanity, Canada
Posts: 3,751
ShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond repute
Default

the 'to hold their hearts' bit would make a bit more sense for the actions that happened in tSR though, which might be a bit of a hole in this idea. It's possible that Rand is wrong, but from a literary point of view it would make more sense, much like the Eye of the World, that some devices have already served their purposed, in this case the prophecy you're reusing, and that what's yet to come we don't have much of a hint at.

It would be very Jordan-esque to have a diversion that like, but somehow it doesn't feel quite like a diversion/red herring.
__________________
"Isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean all of you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh oooh oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick
My WoT collection.
  #14  
Old 05-03-2010, 10:34 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,128
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX View Post
the 'to hold their hearts' bit would make a bit more sense for the actions that happened in tSR though
Well, that was why Rand did it. It was pretty much the only part of it that he could force to make sense, though.

What bothered me about that was Rand's arrogance in assuming that he had any clue what that prophecy meant, and that he could just make it happen. The truth in the ancient dream one....he didn't just pull that out of thin air, really. He had good hints that Rhuidean was a 'lost and forsaken' city, and leading the spears to war made a great deal of sense at that point, especially since Rand knew that clan chiefs were marked by dragons, and that the Aiel use spears exclusively (though he didn't know why yet). He knew that the Aiel 'dance the spear'. He had just learned that he was important to the Aiel prophecies, and that they were the 'People of the Dragon'.

Rand thought he was being clever when he made the literary analogy between the Heart of the Stone and the prophecy, and he found a way to make 'hold their hearts' make sense. But that was all he had.

Perhaps Justice will be what holds their hearts, via Tuon. I imagine that Tuon will be rather freaked out about the Dragon Reborn being dead. But perhaps she will be able to rally the troops with some line about Rand's spirit living on through the sword or something. She might be in on the secret of Nynaeve ripping him out; the dream Egwene had of Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them is a Seanchan. I figure this will be after Nynaeve rips him out, and part of why Egwene will be pissed is because she just lost her Warder. I dunno - there are a bunch of different ways it could play out.

Mat will be in the mix at some point or another, with the Horn, but I believe that by the time they get around to blowing the Horn, Rand will probably have been ripped out. There's another Jesus parallel there, with the women going to the tomb to see Jesus' body, and the body being gone, with angels there to tell them that this was a good thing because it means that Jesus is alive. The paper puppet in the Logain dream symbolizes that Rand's not going to be dead forever, and he's not going to come back in that body either. But because everyone knows Rand is dead, that leaves Logain free to do his thing with the Asha'man at the Black Tower. I don't expect that until A Memory of Light, but I could be wrong.

There is another possibility, for the Gawyn will kill Rand theory - that Rand will choose to Sheathe the Sword rather than kill Gawyn. It's harder to see how that would work, though. Rand thought of that, as he was fighting Ishamael; he used Heron Wading in the Rushes, which led to the Camlann-ish double-mortal-wounding thing, because Heron Wading in the Rushes leaves you wide open. But it does involve a thrust to the heart:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call

It was another voice he heard then. Lan's voice. There will come a time when you want something more than you want life. Ingtar's voice. It is every man's right to choose when to Sheathe the Sword. The picture formed of Egwene, collared, living her life as a damane. Threads of my life in danger. Egwene. If Hawkwing gets into Falme, he can save her. Before he knew it, he had taken the first position of Heron Wading in the Rushes, balanced on one foot, sword raised high, open and defenseless. Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain.

Ba'alzamon stared at him. "Why are you grinning like an idiot, fool? Do you not know I can destroy you utterly?"

Rand felt a calmness beyond that of the void. "I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I'm sure of it. Come. It is time to die."

Ba'alzamon's eyes widened; for an instant they were furnaces that put sweat on Rand's face. The blackness behind Ba'alzamon boiled up around him, and his face hardened. "Then die, worm!" He struck with the staff, as with a spear.

Rand screamed as he felt it pierce his side, burning like a white-hot poker. The void trembled, but he held on with the last of his strength, and drove the heron-mark blade into Ba'alzamon's heart. Ba'alzamon screamed, and the dark behind him screamed. The world exploded in fire.
So maybe it will go like that. Rand lost Tam's sword in that incident, but Gawyn isn't surrounded by a fog of the True Power, so Justice should make it out okay. And Gawyn gets to kill Rand via cutting into his already-double-Mordred wound?
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27

Last edited by Terez; 05-03-2010 at 10:38 PM.
  #15  
Old 05-03-2010, 11:07 PM
ShadowbaneX's Avatar
ShadowbaneX ShadowbaneX is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Far Side of Sanity, Canada
Posts: 3,751
ShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond repute
Default

your theory has parts I like and parts I don't like...well, killing part I don't like. I can see the later stuff working, but Rand need not die to Gawyn for all that to happen, nor need it happen after his death, it could all happen before it (unless he dies on Dragonmount, or perhaps dies again on Dragonmount...depends on how you view that whole LTT thing).

As for Tuon being there, well, I have to ask, given her opinions, how do you expect her to get there? She hates channelers and what's more after that attack, I doubt she'd be welcome in the Tower, in fact it'd have to pretty much be Tarmon Gaidon happening right at that moment for them to be in the same room together and even then they'd likely be fighting for control.

There's also Alivia. She's supposed to be the one to help Rand die. How does she factor into Gawyn killing Rand?
__________________
"Isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean all of you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh oooh oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick
My WoT collection.
  #16  
Old 05-03-2010, 11:20 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,128
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX View Post
your theory has parts I like and parts I don't like...well, killing part I don't like. I can see the later stuff working, but Rand need not die to Gawyn for all that to happen, nor need it happen after his death, it could all happen before it (unless he dies on Dragonmount, or perhaps dies again on Dragonmount...depends on how you view that whole LTT thing).
The main thing that convinces me that Rand will die is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Judas sold his knowledge of Jesus' whereabouts, identifying him with a kiss, for a price of thirty pieces of silver, and this led to Jesus' death. After Jesus was arrested, Judas gave the silver away (by throwing it at the priests in the Temple) and then he hanged himself on a tree. Mat got the silver medallion in Aelfland. The price: he was hanged 'for knowledge' on a tree, but he was saved from death by a 'kiss' from Rand (CPR), and he will accidentally betray Rand by giving that piece of silver away, which will lead to Rand's death at Gawyn's hands.
If the medallion doesn't lead to Rand's death, then the whole thing falls apart. But so much of what is required to make that parallel consistent has already happened, so it makes sense that it will continue to play out...and also, we know Rand has to die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
As for Tuon being there, well, I have to ask, given her opinions, how do you expect her to get there? She hates channelers and what's more after that attack, I doubt she'd be welcome in the Tower, in fact it'd have to pretty much be Tarmon Gaidon happening right at that moment for them to be in the same room together and even then they'd likely be fighting for control.
Did you see what I wrote about Egeanin? Also, the Seanchan woman with a sword is supposed to save Egwene, and I'm guessing from Mesaana. I imagine that Mat will be involved. Perhaps Egwene will be captured and taken to the Black Tower?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
There's also Alivia. She's supposed to be the one to help Rand die. How does she factor into Gawyn killing Rand?
I'm sorry, I didn't realize you hadn't actually read the theory until now. Go read it.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #17  
Old 05-03-2010, 11:29 PM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
Lord of the Board
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,020
Tamyrlin has a reputation beyond reputeTamyrlin has a reputation beyond reputeTamyrlin has a reputation beyond reputeTamyrlin has a reputation beyond reputeTamyrlin has a reputation beyond reputeTamyrlin has a reputation beyond reputeTamyrlin has a reputation beyond reputeTamyrlin has a reputation beyond reputeTamyrlin has a reputation beyond reputeTamyrlin has a reputation beyond reputeTamyrlin has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Tamyrlin
Default I've always hated the traditional interpretation re: Narishma and Callandor

Quote:
"Into the heart he thrusts his sword, into the heart, to hold their hearts. Who draws it out shall follow after, What hand can grasp that fearful blade? "You see? Straight from the Prophecies."
It would be funny if this was the small detail, Rand's incorrect interpretation of prophecy that we all thought had been fulfilled. Not sure how it would fit all of the criteria for the small detail, but I do agree that Rand's interpretation feels heavy handed and almost too convenient for his personal desire to not have to take Callandor with him.

Quote:
"Callandor. With that in my hands, I can do anything. Anything. I know I can do anything. But now, it's a weight off my shoulders. You don't understand, do you?"

Last edited by Tamyrlin; 05-03-2010 at 11:32 PM.
  #18  
Old 05-04-2010, 01:28 AM
ShadowbaneX's Avatar
ShadowbaneX ShadowbaneX is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Far Side of Sanity, Canada
Posts: 3,751
ShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond reputeShadowbaneX has a reputation beyond repute
Default

It was alot of words and some of them were hard.

Anyway, my amusement aside that you used one of my factions in your theory and more so by saying that it's a popular theory, (in fact there's only a few people that are in the faction and I think most of them have probably forgotten about it by now), I still find this theory hard to accept.

Ok, I can perhaps see that Mat will be willing to give up his amulet, perhaps, maybe, sorta, it could be part of the no iron rule maybe. Assuming that happens, it only prevents direct channeling. It won't help lightning bolts called from the sky, exploding ground or collapsing buildings, or possibly even fireballs (it's possible that they unweave when they get to him, but they could still, you know, explode right beside the wearer, so not that helpful. I might be willing to go with the idea that Mat uses it to finally destroy the Gholam, but the amulet is destroyed in the process though, but that doesn't mean it winds up in Gawyn's hands, but then it doesn't really need to.

Now, Occam's Razor/KISS says there's a much simpler way for Gawyn not to have to worry about Rand's channeling, something much more convenient to the plot and that's Rand's...whatever it is when he tries to take hold of the source. If they go blade to blade he likely won't have the time to take the source because it would cause him to put too much effort/concentration into it and that would leave him open to a blow.

With that in mind your scenario for having Alivia helping Rand die isn't even needed and is rather unnecessarily complex. There's also the possibility that Rand has the channeling sickness that wilders sometimes get and he might well waste away and die from that, but, that's another theory.

There's also the fact that one of the driving reasons for Gawyn killing Rand is Morgase, and with it now being known, at least to Perrin and co, it's quite possible that Morgase could be returning to Andor, well, if that happens, Gawyn's reasons for killing Rand evaporate and it's more likely for Morgase to wind up in Caemlyn than for Gawyn & Rand to wind up there.

Like I said, it's an interesting idea and you might be right about some things, but there are alot of "if's"...IF Mat leaves behind his amulet and IF it winds up in Alivia's hands and IF Gawyn is there to pick it up and IF Rand winds up in Caemlyn and IF there's no one else around, because if there's anyone around they're probably going to try and stop it...etc, etc, etc.

Also, minor nitpick here, your "Darkness fits the sun" is a bit of a stretch. It's more of the idea that Egwene believes that Gawyn cannot betray anything, the light and dark imagery are just to make a point, the sun is the primary source of light and it would be impossible to imagine it as a source of darkness.

Also, I think you're thinking too literally, too much of a direct copy of our mythos. Yes, there are similarities and they are twisted, and yes, he uses some points, but I think you're making too many direct parallels here.

Most of us believe that there's going to be a battle in and or around Caemlyn, but why must Rand & Gawyn be there? I mean Rand is on Dragonmount and Gawyn is in Tar Valon. It would be a thousand times simpler just for them to have a confrontation there, rather then hauling them all the way back to Caemlyn for it to happen.

It feels...forced. There are so many other, simpler, more elegant ways for these events to take place then in the method that you suggest that it just feels forced...and if you are correct and it happens this way, BS, or hell, RJ haven written it that way just feels to me to be very heavy handed.

It's a powerful and interesting theory, Terez, but it's a little overly complex and, well, if it ends up written that way, I'd say it was a clumsy way of forcing the plot when so many other elegant solutions are possible for Rand dying. Hell, Gawyn could end up killing Rand in Tar Valon, no sword fight required...or it could be one of the Bloodknives that winds up doing it.

There's just too many other, more elegant ways that this can play out, rather then, directly taking from several of our myths. It's RJ's story and while he's borrowed from mythology and put elements of them into the series, I don't think (and I sincerely hope), that he didn't plan his story according to how those myths played out.
__________________
"Isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean all of you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh oooh oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick
My WoT collection.
  #19  
Old 05-04-2010, 03:36 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,128
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX View Post
Anyway, my amusement aside that you used one of my factions in your theory and more so by saying that it's a popular theory, (in fact there's only a few people that are in the faction and I think most of them have probably forgotten about it by now), I still find this theory hard to accept.
Do you even have a premium account any more? Because I am pretty sure I have tried to join that faction twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Ok, I can perhaps see that Mat will be willing to give up his amulet, perhaps, maybe, sorta, it could be part of the no iron rule maybe.
I don't think it will be connected to the iron rule. Silver isn't iron. I gave better reasons for him leaving it with Elayne in my theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Assuming that happens, it only prevents direct channeling. It won't help lightning bolts called from the sky, exploding ground or collapsing buildings, or possibly even fireballs (it's possible that they unweave when they get to him, but they could still, you know, explode right beside the wearer, so not that helpful.
Gawyn need not know this, and even if he does, it's still better than nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Now, Occam's Razor/KISS says there's a much simpler way for Gawyn not to have to worry about Rand's channeling, something much more convenient to the plot and that's Rand's...whatever it is when he tries to take hold of the source. If they go blade to blade he likely won't have the time to take the source because it would cause him to put too much effort/concentration into it and that would leave him open to a blow.
1. Gawyn has no idea about Rand's problems with channeling.

2. I doubt Rand won't already be holding the Power when Gawyn finds him. It's a huge battle, against an army with damane.

3. Without the medallion, the Mat 'betrayal' isn't explained, nor is the Judas parallel complete. This is the only way for Mat to 'betray' Rand with the silver. I can't see any other way to make the Judas parallel complete. Can you? A good few bits of the Judas parallel have already been laid down: Mat's Portal Stone lives, and the whole scene in Rhuidean, with Mat being hanged. RJ said he liked to 'reverse-engineer' his myths and such, but it doesn't make any sense for him to link Mat to Judas if he's not going to somehow contribute to Rand's death. There is good foreshadowing for both Mat's 'betrayal' and Gawyn's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
With that in mind your scenario for having Alivia helping Rand die isn't even needed and is rather unnecessarily complex.
It's not complex at all. It's a totally random and easily believable scenario that just so happens to encompass every aspect of Alivia's character: her desire to kill Seanchan, her role as the mean killing machine with all the cool toys (she likes to play children's games), and the fact that we know she will help Rand die. That is as simple as it gets.

All the other theories assume that Alivia is going to help Rand die in some way that is not supported by the previous development of her character at all. Mine pretty much sums her up, head to toe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
There's also the possibility that Rand has the channeling sickness that wilders sometimes get and he might well waste away and die from that, but, that's another theory.
He could die any number of ways, but are those ways supported by evidence? How is Rand wasting away 'elegant'? Sounds pretty freaking boring and dumb to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
There's also the fact that one of the driving reasons for Gawyn killing Rand is Morgase, and with it now being known, at least to Perrin and co, it's quite possible that Morgase could be returning to Andor, well, if that happens, Gawyn's reasons for killing Rand evaporate and it's more likely for Morgase to wind up in Caemlyn than for Gawyn & Rand to wind up there.
I addressed that in my theory. This is what everyone believes will happen, but I don't think RJ is going to do it like we expected. Morgase will never make it to Caemlyn. She'll probably be nearby enough for extreme irony, but she will not make it in time to prevent Rand's death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Like I said, it's an interesting idea and you might be right about some things, but there are alot of "if's"...IF Mat leaves behind his amulet and IF it winds up in Alivia's hands and IF Gawyn is there to pick it up and IF Rand winds up in Caemlyn and IF there's no one else around, because if there's anyone around they're probably going to try and stop it...etc, etc, etc.
You make it sound as if it is just a long random chain of ifs....but it isn't. They are all supported by evidence.

Mat leaving his medallion with Elayne is foreshadowed in Lord of Chaos, and again in A Crown of Swords. It is also foreshadowed by the Judas parallel, and the bits of it that have already played out.

The medallion ending up in Alivia's hands is foreshadowed by her desire to fight the Seanchan, by the fact that she has been given ter'angreal to fight with all along because she is strong and skilled in battle, and also by the fact that Alivia has to help Rand die. It's further backed up by the Mat-Judas parallel.

Gawyn being there to pick it up is supported by the fact that he is the First Prince of the Sword, and by the foreshadowing of his violent death, and the foreshadowing of his betrayal, and it's strengthened even further by Arthurian parallels.

Rand being there in Caemlyn is supported by the Camlann parallel, and by both of Elaida's Foretellings concerning Andor. She Foretold that 'From this day Andor marches toward pain and division....Pain and division come to the whole world, and this man stands at the heart of it.' I believe that she meant that he was personally at the heart of the pain and division, and also that he physically stood at the heart of the pain and division that would culminate in the Battle of Caemlyn - the final battle between Randland and the Seanchan, and the place of Rand's death. I believe that her Foretelling about the royal line of Andor includes Gawyn. Rand's death is also necessary.

I never said that Rand would be alone, and I've given plenty of reason why he doesn't even have to be alone for there to be a duel between him and Gawyn. Also, both of Rand's never-healing wounds were precipitated by a duel between him and another blademaster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Also, minor nitpick here, your "Darkness fits the sun" is a bit of a stretch.
It's foreshadowing. It might be a stretch if it weren't connected to so many other pieces of evidence, but it is, so it isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
It's more of the idea that Egwene believes that Gawyn cannot betray anything, the light and dark imagery are just to make a point, the sun is the primary source of light and it would be impossible to imagine it as a source of darkness.
Yes dear, I know what Egwene meant. Foreshadowing works like that: a more profound meaning is hidden beneath the obvious meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Also, I think you're thinking too literally, too much of a direct copy of our mythos.
It's not a direct copy at all. If it were a direct copy, there wouldn't be so many Mordred parallels, for example. Mat wouldn't be both Odin and Judas. King Arthur wouldn't be both Rand and Artur Hawkwing. The Battle of Camlann would be just one battle, rather than Falme, the Battle of Cairhien, the Cairhienin rebel camp, the Battle of Caemlyn, and who knows how many other things all tied up together. If Rand was a direct Arthur parallel, then he would stay dead, only to be seen in the forest with his hunting dogs, or maybe called back to lead his armies via the Horn. But Rand will come back to life for real. If Rand was a direct Jesus parallel, he'd come back to life only to disappear into heaven again. But Rand is most likely going to come back to stay, as a human, and not as an immortal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Most of us believe that there's going to be a battle in and or around Caemlyn, but why must Rand & Gawyn be there? I mean Rand is on Dragonmount and Gawyn is in Tar Valon. It would be a thousand times simpler just for them to have a confrontation there, rather then hauling them all the way back to Caemlyn for it to happen.
I believe I have covered all of these questions already. The theory that Rand will die on Dragonmount is pretty loony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
There's just too many other, more elegant ways that this can play out
You are babbling. You said that three times, so I pared it down. Why should Rand's death be 'elegant'? What makes your scenarios any more 'elegant' than this one? RJ has been reverse-engineering legends for the whole series, and you just now want to take objection to it because Terez has a theory that makes a lot of sense? I'll be sad for you when the book comes out.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #20  
Old 05-04-2010, 03:50 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,128
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Also, I believe that the supposed Aes Sedai superweapon will have something to do with why the Seanchan attack Caemlyn (along with the marath'damane queen). Brandon mentioned that the Seanchan are disappointed about not having gotten that out of the Tower raid, and now that they have Elaida, they might be able to determine more about the source of that weapon. Elaida knows that Elayne and Nynaeve were in Ebou Dar around that time, and it's fairly common knowledge that there are a great lot of non-Aes Sedai female channelers in the Palace. There might be enough info for the Seekers to put it together, for once. They did capture a lot of damane at the Kin's farm...the ones that tried to run.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.