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  #21  
Old 10-23-2009, 11:55 PM
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Yeah, I don't get much into Asmo, but I'll be happy if it's not her as well. It's so....boring. Just about anyone would be more interesting.
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  #22  
Old 10-24-2009, 12:02 AM
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Stop the presses....
Terez and I agree on something...
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  #23  
Old 10-24-2009, 12:06 AM
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haha, you mean you don't agree with me about the Nynaeve theory? Come on, you like Nynaeve....it's perfect!

I think I'm still in your fan club. Unless you removed me...
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  #24  
Old 10-24-2009, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
haha, you mean you don't agree with me about the Nynaeve theory? Come on, you like Nynaeve....it's perfect!

I think I'm still in your fan club. Unless you removed me...
The fanclub is kindof dead. I don't know which theory of Nynaeve you mean. Unless you mean Nynaeve ripping Rand out of TAR? I have been thinking that for years
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  #25  
Old 10-24-2009, 12:18 AM
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It's been in the box o theories for me for a while, but I've never seen anyone make a good argument for it before - had to come up with my own. But you can add that one to your list.
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  #26  
Old 10-24-2009, 12:43 AM
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That someone hasn't made a good argument for it before, doesn't mean he or she doesn't believe it.
It simply means it's not worth discussing. To me it seems quite obvious that Nyn will resurrect Rand. One of the possible methods being dragging him out of TAR.
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  #27  
Old 10-24-2009, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
That someone hasn't made a good argument for it before, doesn't mean he or she doesn't believe it.
It simply means it's not worth discussing.
yeah...okay. I'm not trying to say you didn't believe it - just that no one's ever managed to convince me of it before, so I convinced myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
To me it seems quite obvious that Nyn will resurrect Rand. One of the possible methods being dragging him out of TAR.
It's the only possible method, cause there was no way ever that she would actually Heal death. That's why I always shied away from that theory, because it was dumb. This is the only way it works.

I just found out the end, and there were some cool surprises - I didn't get to skim much of it in the store. I can relax now...
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Last edited by Terez; 10-24-2009 at 12:57 AM.
  #28  
Old 10-24-2009, 01:16 AM
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Have you finally seen that LTT is real?
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  #29  
Old 10-24-2009, 01:21 AM
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lol.....no.
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  #30  
Old 10-24-2009, 07:44 AM
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I just realized an irony in the chapter 'Unexpected Encounters'. That's one of the few things in the book that I expected, damn near word for word the whole chapter. Some things happened later in the book in the same plotline that I didn't expect (or rather, I knew they were possible, but I argued against them for some reasons that were completely satisfied just by reading chapter 12 and skimming chapter 16). RJ did a good job with bread crumb trails and red herrings for the plot lines that play out in this book, to the point where the one major thing in that theory that I was wrong about, I was happy to be wrong about, because it tied into another long-running mystery that had pretty much everybody fooled. It's awesome plotting, and how could I be upset about that? lol...

There are still some few things that remain unspoiled for me, and I have a feeling it will stay that way till Tuesday.
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  #31  
Old 10-24-2009, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
No, I looked up one quote of Brandon. ( i am not sure if there are other quotes)


http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog...stmas!-New-FAQ

I originally thought as well that it would be a pov from the killer. But what if Moridin, the DO or someone else knows who done it?
I do think it decreases the chance she did it. Especially considering they could have put it in the prologue. If she really hasn't done it, than i will be happy.
That's fine by me. I never saw Graendal as a viable option anyway, and can't say I'm unbiased against more mounting evidence against her. If people want to still say she is the most obvious candidate, well ... what can you say but that Taimadred died only after Jordan had to come out and be explicit.

For Semirhage, I'm not shocked that she died as well. I figured she would try to escape ( since she was the master of torture, great at taking pain as well which would be needed to escape ) and it would end up tragically.

Verin, another non shocker. We knew she was Brown Ajah to the extreme, and then something happened. Hehe, poor gal. But she got around the black oaths when it mattered. Great scene.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-24-2009 at 03:26 PM.
  #32  
Old 10-24-2009, 06:22 PM
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Okay, Isa...you think THIS means Lews Therin was 'real'?

Spoiler:
"He knew--somehow--that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been."
hahahahahahahahahaha!
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  #33  
Old 10-24-2009, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Okay, Isa...you think THIS means Lews Therin was 'real'?

Spoiler:
"He knew--somehow--that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been."
hahahahahahahahahaha!
He was real and still is.

and quit trying to use me. *rants like Rand*
  #34  
Old 10-24-2009, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jana
He was real and still is.
Yeah, the reason I put 'real' in quotes is that it doesn't really do any justice at describing the actual argument that we have been having with the real'ers for all these years. The quote I gave sums up exactly what we have been saying all this time.
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  #35  
Old 10-25-2009, 12:23 AM
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Yeah, i believe that quote means he was real
He was the real personality of LTT Rand heard because of the taint. It wasn't a figment of imagination of Rand.

Rand only wouldn't hear the voice anymore when he was completely reintegrated with all his past lives. They couldn't be two men, because it's the same soul.

Look below is the reason I think LTT appeared:

Why do we live again? Lews Therin asked, suddenly. His voice was crisp and sitinct. Yes, Rand said, pleading. Tell me. Why? Maybe… Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? Could it be.. Maybe it’s so that we can have a second chance.
(Veins of Gold, page 759)

Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again. That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changed everything. He saw the entire world in his minds eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace and joy and hope. Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!.
(veins of gold, page 759)

LTT got a second chance and he got peace when he knew that Ilyena might live again as well. That way the two personalities got integrated.

If it was only a form of madness, than why felt RAnd more complete in TAR?

Your last gift of sanity brought me no comfort, Rand said, surprising himself with the words. That had been Lews Therin’s memory, not his own. Yet Lews Therin was gone from his mind. Oddly, Rand felt more stable – somehow- here in this place where else appeared fluid. The pieces of himself fit together better. Not perfectly of course, but better than they had in recent memory.
(A place to begin 237)

He’s inside my head. He was gone during the dream. But he’s back now. (A place to begin, page 241)

This fits exactly with what we know of the heroes. There is no reason for Rand to feel more complete in TAR if he made up the voice. If the voice was real and needed to be integrated in Rand's personality, than it would make sense for LTT to disappear while Rand was in TAR in the dream. (not in the flesh)

Terez: you can talk whatever you want, LTT was the real personality from LTT in the Age of Legends. Rand didn't create it to deal with some memories.
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Last edited by Isabel; 10-25-2009 at 12:26 AM.
  #36  
Old 10-25-2009, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
Yeah, i believe that quote means he was real
He was the real personality of LTT Rand heard because of the taint. It wasn't a figment of imagination of Rand.
We know that he heard the voice because of the taint - but those memories were never a conscious entity, which is what the argument was all about. That was an illusion subconsciously created by Rand - a symptom of his insanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
Look below is the reason I think LTT appeared:
It's a nice poetic moment, but doesn't really help your theory. Lews Therin was never a conscious entity like you claimed he was. He was always just a part of Rand - a part he wanted to deny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
LTT got a second chance and he got peace when he knew that Ilyena might live again as well. That way the two personalities got integrated.
Which is even more points for our side, because the whole REASON Rand couldn't accept those memories is because he didn't want to accept Lews Therin's pain and guilt - at least, those were the main reasons. He accepts those memories now, and he has somewhat gotten over the pain of what he did as Lews Therin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
If it was only a form of madness, than why felt RAnd more complete in TAR?
Because Lews Therin's memories were more natural there. They were always unnatural before. Doesn't make 'Lews Therin' a conscious entity - in fact, in your own quote, Rand recognizes that Lews Therin was a part of himself, just as he did in the other quote, where he says they were NEVER two men. Not even before he went to Tel'aran'rhiod.

When Rand is outside the dream, those memories seem unnatural (and even horrifying) to him. The reasons why are obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
Terez: you can talk whatever you want, LTT was the real personality from LTT in the Age of Legends. Rand didn't create it to deal with some memories.
I never said that Lews Therin's memories (and the personality that goes along with them) weren't real - just that Lews Therin was not a conscious entity with a mind of his own. That was always an illusion, just as Rand said: they were not two men, and never had been. Sorry, but your theory is disproven. Let's not pretend after all these arguments that we didn't get down to the nitty gritty of our disagreement several times - your statements about him being 'the real personality' don't mean anything. It's the issue of separate consciousnesses that was always the sticking point, and that has been resolved - they were never two men. We win.
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  #37  
Old 10-25-2009, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
We know that he heard the voice because of the taint - but those memories were never a conscious entity, which is what the argument was all about. That was an illusion subconsciously created by Rand - a symptom of his insanity.
It was not a symptom of his insanity. It's something that has happened more often. Even Semirhage said the voice was real.
It was the real voice of LTT. We know for a fact that if Lanfear got him in tFoH that he would have been LTT.

Quote:
It's a nice poetic moment, but doesn't really help your theory. Lews Therin was never a conscious entity like you claimed he was. He was always just a part of Rand - a part he wanted to deny.
It does help my theory. He was the real voice of LTT in the past. Yes, it should have been gone, because the soul grew a new personality, but the taint brought it back.
Perhaps if Rand would have accepted it, than he would have integrated before.

Quote:
Which is even more points for our side, because the whole REASON Rand couldn't accept those memories is because he didn't want to accept Lews Therin's pain and guilt - at least, those were the main reasons. He accepts those memories now, and he has somewhat gotten over the pain of what he did as Lews Therin.
Look above. It proofs LTT was real, because otherwise, he couldn't integrate it with his own personality. It was the last incarnations personality.

Quote:
Because Lews Therin's memories were more natural there. They were always unnatural before.
More natural??? What kind of bullshit is that?
Why would it be more natural there, if Rand thought it up?? If it was the real personality as i claimed and normally the heroes are fully integrated with all there personalities in TAR, than it proofs LTT was real.


[quote] Doesn't make 'Lews Therin' a conscious entity - in fact, in your own quote, Rand recognizes that Lews Therin was a part of himself, just as he did in the other quote, where he says they were NEVER two men. Not even before he went to Tel'aran'rhiod.

Two men and two personalities is different. The Dragons soul created a new personality, only because of the taint the old personality came back. That personality wasn't a man, but because it's the Dragons soul it was part of Rand.




Quote:
I never said that Lews Therin's memories (and the personality that goes along with them) weren't real - just that Lews Therin was not a conscious entity with a mind of his own.
PFF, you did....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frenzy
The voice talking to Rand is the re-awakened LTT.

This is where we break off. I think that the voice talking to Rand is just his normal inner conversation, with the added complication that he believes he is talking to a real person rather than just talking to himself. In other words, he's like a normal crazy guy that talks to himself. The difference is that he's got past life memories and such to help build the illusion that he's talking to someone else, rather than talking to himself.
You are saying it is just his normal inner conversation. That's not the case, he is talking to his previous incarnation. Yes, the previous incarnation should have been dead and gone, but it isn't.


Quote:
statements about him being 'the real personality' don't mean anything. It's the issue of separate consciousnesses that was always the sticking point, and that has been resolved - they were never two men. We win.
LOL. You are really dilusional. The argument was always that it was the real Lews Therin awakaned by the taint or some other mechanisme. That meant that Rand could turn into LTT. You never understood why we felt that way.

It has been proved that it was the real incarnation of the dragon as LTT. That is what the 'LTT is real' have been claiming all the time. The name 'LTT is real' says it all. You cannot claim that we were wrong.
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Last edited by Isabel; 10-25-2009 at 02:33 AM.
  #38  
Old 10-25-2009, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
It was not a symptom of his insanity. It's something that has happened more often. Even Semirhage said the voice was real.
It was the real voice of LTT. We know for a fact that if Lanfear got him in tFoH that he would have been LTT.
We have had this conversation before - what Semirhage said doesn't mean anything at all, in terms of our argument, which has to do with consciousness. I have said it a billion times, but you still don't get it - Semirhage assumed that Lews Therin had told Rand who she was, but she was wrong - Rand simply remembered it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
It does help my theory. He was the real voice of LTT in the past. Yes, it should have been gone, because the soul grew a new personality, but the taint brought it back.
What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
Perhaps if Rand would have accepted it, than he would have integrated before.
Indeed! And that's what we've been saying all along - that Rand would have to be able to accept that Lews Therin was a part of who he was in order to integrate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
Look above. It proofs LTT was real, because otherwise, he couldn't integrate it with his own personality. It was the last incarnations personality.
What? You're not making any sense now. If you're really daft enough to believe that we somehow thought that Lews Therin's memories and personality weren't a part of Rand's soul, then that shows how little you have comprehended our arguments over the years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
More natural??? What kind of bullshit is that?
Yay, I made you mad! lol...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
Why would it be more natural there, if Rand thought it up?? If it was the real personality as i claimed and normally the heroes are fully integrated with all there personalities in TAR, than it proofs LTT was real.
Again, you are trying to pretend that we had some other argument than the one that we had.

Quote:
Two men and two personalities is different. The Dragons soul created a new personality, only because of the taint the old personality came back. That personality wasn't a man, but because it's the Dragons soul it was part of Rand.
Which is what we've been saying all along. Rand was having conversations with himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
PFF, you did....
Nope, didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
You are saying it is just his normal inner conversation. That's not the case, he is talking to his previous incarnation. Yes, the previous incarnation should have been dead and gone, but it isn't.
He was having his normal inner conversation with himself, and pretending that he was talking to Lews Therin. But, since Lews Therin was a part of himself, and because Rand remembered Lews Therin's memories, he was actually having a conversation with himself. Not with another man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
LOL. You are really dilusional.
haha, this from the girl who says that RJ's quote about 'one soul two personalities' proved the two-soulers right! I think most people know who the delusional one is here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
It has been proved that it was the real incarnation of the dragon as LTT. That is what the 'LTT is real' have been claiming all the time. The name 'LTT is real' says it all. You cannot claim that we were wrong.
Yeah, I can, because the 'real' bit never meant anything. Therefore, we got down to the nitty gritty in our debates and determined that you thought that Rand and Lews Therin were separate conscious entities with wills of their own, and we thought that Lews Therin was simply a part of Rand. We win.
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  #39  
Old 10-25-2009, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
We have had this conversation before - what Semirhage said doesn't mean anything at all, in terms of our argument, which has to do with consciousness. I have said it a billion times, but you still don't get it - Semirhage assumed that Lews Therin had told Rand who she was, but she was wrong - Rand simply remembered it.
I never mention the word consciousness, so why do you associate it with LTT is real????
Yes, Rand remembers it, because he has LTT in his head. IN ONE HEAD, so it's kind of hard to seperate it.


Quote:
What?
Quite simple as I said:

It does help my theory. He was the real voice of LTT in the past. Yes, the personality should have been gone, because the soul grew a new personality, but the taint brought the personality back.


Quote:
Indeed! And that's what we've been saying all along - that Rand would have to be able to accept that Lews Therin was a part of who he was in order to integrate.
Well, he also needed something else. He also needed to remember all his other lives...



Quote:
What? You're not making any sense now. If you're really daft enough to believe that we somehow thought that Lews Therin's memories and personality weren't a part of Rand's soul, then that shows how little you have comprehended our arguments over the years.
You have always said that the voice was fake. A coping mechanism.....
While we said: the voice(including memories and personalities) were the real personality of LTT in the past.

Quote:
Again, you are trying to pretend that we had some other argument than the one that we had.
And again: you are doing the same... You have never understood the 'LTT is real'position. You always brought up some bullshit and didn't see it is a difference in point of view.


Quote:
Which is what we've been saying all along. Rand was having conversations with himself.
No, he was having conversation with the real voice of LTT. Which infact was the same soul, so was part of him.
That's a distinction.

Quote:
Yeah, I can, because the 'real' bit never meant anything. Therefore, we got down to the nitty gritty in our debates and determined that you thought that Rand and Lews Therin were separate conscious entities with wills of their own, and we thought that Lews Therin was simply a part of Rand
No,you never understood our position. LTT and Rand were seperate personalities in Rands head. Both reincarnations of the Dragon Soul. Normally speaking those reincarnations are integrated in TAR.
So when Rand comes into TAR in the dream, he feels more whole, what coincides with the LTT is real faction.

While you say that the voice is a coping mechanism. Thought up by Rand.... While that's not the case, it's the reawakened LTT. Yes, in the end it's part of the dragon soul, so part of Rand.
But that doesn't make it any difference that LTT's voice was real.
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  #40  
Old 10-25-2009, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Yeah, I can, because the 'real' bit never meant anything. Therefore, we got down to the nitty gritty in our debates and determined that you thought that Rand and Lews Therin were separate conscious entities with wills of their own, and we thought that Lews Therin was simply a part of Rand.
No, you said LTT was more than a part of Rand. You said LTT was a CONSTRUCT of Rand's mind. That was the "nitty gritty" of the argument.

Hence your touting of your construct theory in multiple threads. In the poll you created, you described your own position as:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
"Lews Therin's memories are real, but the "voice" is an illusion subconsciously created by Rand."
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...nstruct+theory

In the LTT debate you went on and on trying to teach us how Rand constructed the LTT persona,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
See how that works? Rand had no problem with the memory that gave him a nice new weave to use against the Shaido. But when the thought about Ilyena surfaced, he had a problem with it. This is before Rand has a really developed perception of "the voice" - he doesn't really think of Lews Therin as being sentient until Lord of Chaos - but already you can see the motives that led to the construction of the persona.
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...nstruct+theory
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Last edited by Sodas; 10-25-2009 at 04:55 AM.
 

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