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  #1  
Old 03-29-2010, 07:17 PM
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Default Principled Conservative take on Tea Party

This guy seems to think they're grossly misinformed.


You have to admit, when a group gets a 3 option question 98% wrong on their core issue, that's an enormous indicator that what's going on is hugely influenced by group-think.

Doesn't mean it's 100% certain, doesn't mean they are incapable of making a good point, or aren't necessarily good people at heart.

But I don't care who the group, or what the issue- that type of error is shocking.
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  #2  
Old 03-29-2010, 08:04 PM
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Interestin'. The Populists, however, rejected both established parties and called for government internvention in the economy--Free Silver, public granaries, and so on--but I suppose their hostility to the "Establishment" and their strange coalition of ultimately incompatible interest groups is quite reminiscent of the Tea Party folks. Some of them also stood for the same mix of religious conservatism and radicalism. William Jennings Bryan, the Great Commoner, was both a Progressive champion of popular political participation and an antievolutionist.

Of course, he was also against American participation in the First World War and his belief that Social Darwinism had fueled the fires of war at least in part underlay his opposition to the teaching of evolution in schools.

As always, there's not necessarily a point to what I'm rambling about.
  #3  
Old 03-29-2010, 08:09 PM
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William Jennings Bryan was an ass...that is all.
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Old 03-29-2010, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uno View Post
Interestin'. The Populists, however, rejected both established parties and called for government internvention in the economy--Free Silver, public granaries, and so on--but I suppose their hostility to the "Establishment" and their strange coalition of ultimately incompatible interest groups is quite reminiscent of the Tea Party folks. Some of them also stood for the same mix of religious conservatism and radicalism. William Jennings Bryan, the Great Commoner, was both a Progressive champion of popular political participation and an antievolutionist.

Of course, he was also against American participation in the First World War and his belief that Social Darwinism had fueled the fires of war at least in part underlay his opposition to the teaching of evolution in schools.

As always, there's not necessarily a point to what I'm rambling about.
I was going to make a post earlier, but I got lost trying to refresh myself on the exact details of the party-think progression over the course of our history. I get lost every time. It's amazing how one major geographical region always largely believes in one set of principles that is apparently directly at odds with another geographical region, and how fiscal conservatism got tossed from one party to the other. It's like the hot potato issue. So far as I can tell, the South has fairly consistently identified with states' rights since the secession. They have fairly consistently been on the conservative side of civil rights issues. The South was all about the New Deal, wasn't it? We voted solidly for FDR all four times. Because we're poor, right? That makes sense. He had us, and the working class everywhere else. The 'fiscal conservatives' of that day were in the old money region of the northeast, so far as I can tell.

I know that the Civil Rights movement was the ultimate cause of the party swap of the 60s, but it seems to have gotten all tied up with McCarthyism somehow. And then Reaganomics came along and forged a new era that led to the present-day teabaggers. It's all very confusing.
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Old 03-29-2010, 09:05 PM
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Given that three-fourths claim to be Republicans or that they have Republican leanings, it should be noted they have been supporting a political party unfailingly vigilant in protecting one of the wealthiest, most powerful and most abusive sectors of the nation's economy: the insurance industry. They also ally themselves with the party most reluctant to reform or regulate the financial sector.

In historical terms, you'd think they would call themselves the East India Company-ers. They're the champions of the big guy.

If you canít even get your name right, the prospects of being right elsewhere aren't good.
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  #6  
Old 03-29-2010, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrangePackage View Post
Given that three-fourths claim to be Republicans or that they have Republican leanings, it should be noted they have been supporting a political party unfailingly vigilant in protecting one of the wealthiest, most powerful and most abusive sectors of the nation's economy: the insurance industry. They also ally themselves with the party most reluctant to reform or regulate the financial sector.

In historical terms, you'd think they would call themselves the East India Company-ers. They're the champions of the big guy.

If you can’t even get your name right, the prospects of being right elsewhere aren't good.
You just wasted a good amount of my time. I did some research, got some stats for you and everything and then I left to make my pizza, come back refresh and see that. The naivety of your post boggles my mind so I leave you with this:

*SHASHABOOEY.

*edited for a more fitting word.
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  #7  
Old 03-29-2010, 09:34 PM
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I could say something about small minds being easy to boggle, but I really just think that you can't think of a witty retort for my bait.
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Old 03-29-2010, 09:52 PM
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Given that three-fourths claim to be Republicans or that they have Republican leanings...
3/4 of what? Surely not the teabaggers. The South? I wonder what the percentage of white southerners votes Republican.
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  #9  
Old 03-29-2010, 09:53 PM
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I could say something about small minds being easy to boggle, but I really just think that you can't think of a witty retort for my bait.
thread over.
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Old 03-29-2010, 10:18 PM
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thread over.
Alas, I think it is.

I would really like to see someone try to justify those survey results I linked to above, but really, how do you defend something like that?

The Teabag sympathizers on the board are rightly avoiding this thread. Those facts don't jive with their misconceptions, and thus they must be ignored. They're entitled to their own facts.
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  #11  
Old 03-29-2010, 10:36 PM
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Alas, I think it is.

I would really like to see someone try to justify those survey results I linked to above, but really, how do you defend something like that?

The Teabag sympathizers on the board are rightly avoiding this thread. Those facts don't jive with their misconceptions, and thus they must be ignored. They're entitled to their own facts.
Alas, I think you're wrong. Remember the chick who made the mess of her question for Miss America? How about Leno's man on the street? This was about as good a "survey" as those were.

Now this thread is done.
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Old 03-29-2010, 10:50 PM
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http://www.frumforum.com/wp-content/...rty-Survey.pdf

By all means, tell us what flaws you find in the questions as they were asked?
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  #13  
Old 03-29-2010, 11:06 PM
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I didn't say anything about the questions. I said it wasn't a statistical survey. It was done like a man on the street survey the same way as Leno did his surveys. It makes a lot of noise about the dumbassedness of people, but the results really don't mean much.

I'm absolutely, positively, sure that there are maybe 5 people on this site that would have done better. If I get 57 people to do it (as they did), we'd have statistical evidence for the group at TL. We wouldn't have statistical evidence for everyone associated with the WoT.

It's a flawed survey.
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Old 03-29-2010, 11:09 PM
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Seriously?

Your first link states that the:

Quote:
highest figure recorded in all of American history was half those figures: 20.9% at the peak of World War II in 1944.
The author uses that as the highest possible answer to the question, yet the they very survey he is quoting, and that you linked to has an answer of 31.5%. Not even your beloved author seems to have a grasp of what the question actual is asking, or what all the possible answers maybe.

All the Tea Party stuff I have seen, read, heard, not one mention has been made as to Federal Tax receipts compared to GDP. I have however heard plenty about the Federal Budget to GDP (over 24%) and US Public Debt to GDP (83.4%).

But hey what do I know?

The Right values smaller government, less government intervention and more personal freedom. Freedom such as the ability to run ones own Sole Proprietorship, Partnership, LLC, or corporation as one (or the groups individuals) see fit with as little government interference as possible. Unfortunately, that sometimes means letting people do shitty things (insurance companies), but that is their right, so be it. Its fine if you believe that things should be otherwise. I am not condoning what insurance companies do, but I believe they have every right to do it.

But then again, what do I know?

And.......

SKADOOSH!
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Old 03-29-2010, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Sei'taer View Post
I didn't say anything about the questions. I said it wasn't a statistical survey. It was done like a man on the street survey the same way as Leno did his surveys.

(snip)

It's a flawed survey.

Actually, as far as I understand statistics, asking 100 random people on the street a question is more statistically accurate than asking 100 people that belong to the same group a question.

But I didn't bother to click on the link, so i don't really know what SP's study is all about, and I've already posted about the inherent unreliability of statistics today.
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  #16  
Old 03-29-2010, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp View Post
Seriously?

Your first link states that the:

Quote:
highest figure recorded in all of American history was half those figures: 20.9% at the peak of World War II in 1944.
The author uses that as the highest possible answer to the question, yet the they very survey he is quoting, and that you linked to has an answer of 31.5%. Not even your beloved author seems to have a grasp of what the question actual is asking, or what all the possible answers maybe.
If you'd actually read the article, you might understand why there are two different figures. Or maybe you read it, and just didn't get it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Bartlett
Even though the Tea Partyers were specifically asked about federal income taxes, it's possible that they were thinking about other federal taxes as well, such as payroll and excise taxes. According to the JCT, when all federal taxes are included, those earning between $40,000 and $50,000 have an average tax rate of 12.3%, and those earning between $50,000 and $75,000 pay a rate of 14.5%.
The 'correct answer' number was adjusted to give the teabaggers the benefit of the doubt, in case they just didn't understand the question. Even still, they were way off.
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Old 03-29-2010, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by JSUCamel View Post
Actually, as far as I understand statistics, asking 100 random people on the street a question is more statistically accurate than asking 100 people that belong to the same group a question.

But I didn't bother to click on the link, so i don't really know what SP's study is all about, and I've already posted about the inherent unreliability of statistics today.
Depends on what you are studying. If you are wanting to know what a specific population thinks, asking 100 random people in that population is going to give you much better results than pulling 100 random people off the street - who may or may not be included in the population you are wanting to study.

Damn. Im actually learning something in research...
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Old 03-30-2010, 12:06 AM
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Taer is trying to say that the teabaggers probably aren't any worse than the average Joe the Plumber. But SP's point is that taxes are the teabaggers' core issue. They ought to have something resembling a clue.
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Old 03-30-2010, 12:14 AM
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The quote I used from the article was in regards to the first question. The quote you used is in regards to question number 3.

However, to combat your next post correcting your quote and explaining how your point is still valid, I will post a preemptive response to your possible rebuttal.

In the article the author states that
Quote:
acceptable answers would be 6.4%, which is the percentage for federal income taxes; 12.7%, which would be for both income taxes and Social Security payroll taxes; or 14.8%, which would represent all federal taxes as a share of GDP in 2009.
And later that
Quote:
The highest figure (federal income via taxes compared to GDP) recorded in all of American history was half those figures (given by survey reponders): 20.9% at the peak of World War II in 1944.
The answer given by the survey itself is 31.5%.

1. Explain to me how the author, who is obviously wrong given that his highest acceptable answer is 14.8%, is still credible.

2. Explain how this "expert" was more wrong than the combined survey takers whose median answer was off by 10.56 percentage points, while the highest acceptable answer given by the author was off by 16.7 percentage points, is still credible.

3. Explain all this while still holding the findings of the survey and the article simultaneously valid.

If you can accomplish those 3 tasks, I will send you a cookie of your choice.

Alas, I love my cookies and will therefore cheat:

The question is so open to interpretation that it is ridiculous and the answers from such a question should not be read into to much. Any question that is so generalized as that allows for to much interpretation. So, they all be wrong and right at the same time.

The most amazing part of this whole thing is the fact the author did not even bother to compare his answers with that of the survey in order to validate either his own figures or the answer given by the surveyors.

And.......

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Old 03-30-2010, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp View Post
The answer given by the survey itself is 31.5%.

1. Explain to me how the author, who is obviously wrong given that his highest acceptable answer is 14.8%, is still credible.
Well, it seems to me that's a backwards way of asking the question, when the author linked to the actual figures. He is correct, either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OAG
The most amazing part of this whole thing is the fact the author did not even bother to compare his answers with that of the survey in order to validate either his own figures or the answer given by the surveyors.
What he says in the article about the answer given by the surveyors matches with what the survey says. All of the other 'correct answers' given in the survey itself seem weighted to give the teabaggers the benefit of the doubt, judging by the details given in the article.
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