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  #41  
Old 11-15-2015, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Did anyone else play "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?" as a kid?
I never knew it existed when I was a kid.
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  #42  
Old 11-16-2015, 02:28 AM
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Now there is a flood of mostly young men, the vast majority fleeing conscription or death at the hands of these same tyrants, knocking on the doors of peace, and we can't decide whether to help them or turn them away in fear of the few who no doubt came for revenge rather than refuge. It's all well and good to say we should do better at telling one from the other, but it's easier said than done. At what point to you declare someone past the point of no return? And when you send him back where he came from, does he become a totem of western intolerance and a tool for recruitment?
this is really well put. It's easy to dehumanize and lump people together based on the lowest common denominator, and say that "if this person does this and is from there, then all people from there do this". I mean, it's no secret that I despise Putin and everything the Russian state has done over the past 15 years or so; but when the news came of two (!!!) crashed planes in a week, I was still sad for the Russian people. The mothers and fathers and friends who lost their loved ones for no good reason have nothing to do with my feelings for their government. I think this is an important distinction to make, because for terrorists, there is no distinction; the people = the government. You hate the actions of one so you automatically hate the other, and you blow up the other because it's the same as the one.

There was a really powerful post on FB by an Iraqi refugee in the Netherlands - her family fled Iraq well over a decade ago when she was a toddler, back home they had good jobs, cars, family, security and happiness. Nobody leaves these things behind lightly. Now, she's fully integrated, in Uni, has a job on the side and paying her taxes and generally contributing to the society. Oh, and yes, they're Iraqi. But they're not Muslims. Her family is Christian and she is (now) and atheist. But it gets so very tiring having to explain this over and over and over again, constantly under attack, though thankfully most of the time verbal.

I mean, not that it matters much how or if people pray, imho. What matters is that they're decent people. These are the stories of people that I hope we help when we help refugees. The stories of struggle and sadness and hardship, yes. But also stories where things DO get better.

it is my opinion that war makes it only worse. The only thing that makes things better is comfort. I mean this in the sense of property and safety and knowledge that the rule of law applies for all in the same manner. People like their lives to be comfortable. So, if we can somehow spread the Western level of general comfort to the areas that are now so very uncomfortable, I think that would help. For those who haven't figured it out yet, war destroys things. Not just the people who die, be they military or civilian, but their homes, their families, their dreams and hopes and belief that things will get better.

But, I realize we don't live in a world where this might be possible. Not in the near future, anyways
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  #43  
Old 11-16-2015, 03:25 AM
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Humans of New York, a Facebook page that tells the stories of random people, did a series on the refugees last month, and all of the stories they shared were powerful, but this story probably got me the most.

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When I joined the Syrian army, there was no war yet. I just wanted to serve my country. But now everyone is forced to do horrible things. One time we were marching and a single bullet came from a village. Our commander told us to go into each house, one by one, and kill everyone inside. The village was a Sunni village, so our commander ordered all the Sunni soldiers to lead the attack. Anyone who disobeyed would be killed themselves. We did our best to aim over the heads of the people who were running away, but forty people were killed. A few nights later I fled in the middle of the night.
(Lesvos, Greece)
This is why the situation is so bad in Syria; there's no resistance worth fighting for.
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  #44  
Old 11-16-2015, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
Times like this, games like Rome Total War and Medieval Total War come in hand.
Europa Universalis. I kid you not, that game has taught me more about geography and old-timey politics than 18 years of school.

OT: what's most worrying about the attack in Paris is what our politicians will do in response.

Which will most likely do two things:
1. fuck over more of our rights (more surveillance, more spying on everyone, etc)
2. create more terrorists (both more radical muslims and more crazies on the far right)

I'm all for closing off the European borders, but not because I think many or most of the people coming are terrorists, but because I know that a big (and growing) part of us Europeans think that.

It's just human nature, and it wont listen to reason. So at some point people need to accept the fact that most people are stupid bigots, and make decisions based on that, and not the utopian fantasy where everyone is as smart and nice as they should be.
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  #45  
Old 11-16-2015, 07:18 AM
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Godwin

something something


(I saw an illustration this weekend of a Nazi thanking a terrorist for a job finished. I can't find it again though)
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  #46  
Old 11-16-2015, 08:28 AM
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Speaking of Godwin, a post from Malazan (and South Africa):

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In my Jewish school we grew up learning about the holocaust. The point in particular that is relevant here is that we learnt how hard it was for Jews to escape Germany before the war and how hard it was for European Jewry in particular to escape nazi europe in general pre, during and post war. The British essentially cut off immigration to mandate Palestine (a 360 of previous policy) to sure up allies in the middle east. America and its statue of liberty refused more than a handful. One place that was welcoming was south america which accounts for what might seem its strangely large Jewish population. In any event we learnt how horrendous the world could be that they could deny a person refugee status even though it meant their death. Seemed so clear cut. A moral outrage. What I find amazing is that here I am a few years later, and while Syrian refugees are not exactly flooding into South Africa you do catch yourself thinking; employment is over 30%, we have our own problems, we have a drought etc etc Let them go elsewhere. Protect yourself and your interests first. It seems so obviously clear to you. Your not doing anything wrong. Its sound economical reality. For me its been quite an eye opener.

Every country must have its similar litany. In the meantime people are dying
I have seen this guy get into some serious flamewars with Muslim members, by the way. He has never struck me as a liberal Jew.
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  #47  
Old 11-16-2015, 05:02 PM
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Don't think we're likely to see French troops on the ground in Syria or Iraq, but they have been quite active...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34836439

In addition to the airstrikes on Raqqa, whose significance is, in all honesty, mostly symbolic, they have also done the following:

Quote:
He said he would table a bill to extend the state of emergency declared after the attacks for three months and would suggest changes to the constitution.
Quote:
Making it easier to strip dual nationals of their French citizenship if they are convicted of a terrorist offence, as long as this did not render them stateless
Speeding up the deportation of foreigners who pose "a particularly grave threat to the security of the nation"
Quote:
In the early hours of Monday, a total of 23 people were arrested, 104 put under house arrest, and dozens of weapons seized in more than 168 raids on suspected Islamist militants across France.
One also cannot help but be curious as to just how well Marine Le Pen's Front National does in the upcoming elections.
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  #48  
Old 11-16-2015, 09:33 PM
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This also, unfortunately, shouldn't surprise anyone...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...tack/75857924/

Quote:
At least 23 governors, expressing fears about terrorism, are taking action — through executive order, a request to federal officials or some other means — to prevent Syrian refugees from settling in their states.

Their stand in the name of public safety began Sunday and escalated quickly Monday, igniting a debate over whether states even have the power to refuse people based on their nationality.

The governors — in Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Mississippi, Massachusetts, Nebraska, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Wisconsin — were reacting to Friday’s attacks in Paris and the possibility that Syrian refugees seeking resettlement in the United States might include people with terrorist ties.

Twenty-two of the 23 governors are Republican.
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  #49  
Old 11-16-2015, 09:43 PM
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Party of Bigotry and Xenophobia strikes again.
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  #50  
Old 11-16-2015, 09:46 PM
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MS social media is on fire with this shit. Lots of people who usually don't even talk about politics are chiming in.
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  #51  
Old 11-16-2015, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
MS social media is on fire with this shit. Lots of people who usually don't even talk about politics are chiming in.
I'm quite proud that my Governor is one of the ones saying "Yes, we'll take refugees" Because FU, you filthy bigots. Go shove your racism, xenophobia, and hatred up your asses.
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  #52  
Old 11-16-2015, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
I'm quite proud that my Governor is one of the ones saying "Yes, we'll take refugees" Because FU, you filthy bigots. Go shove your racism, xenophobia, and hatred up your asses.
Same here, though I was a bit apprehensive until the list came out, as Wyoming is one of the more conservative states.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
This also, unfortunately, shouldn't surprise anyone...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...tack/75857924/
Doesn't really surprise me that Texas is on this official Cowards List. Mind you, there are plenty of Dutch politicians who would also happily sign such an initiative.
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Old 11-17-2015, 09:59 AM
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Wondering if Charlie Hebdo is going to release caricatures featuring bodies of those who died during these attacks.
Quote:
Charlie Hebdo, the French magazine that lost 11 staff members when attacked in January, has released a defiant message following the latest attack on Paris.

The widely shared image, released ahead of the satirical magazine’s publication tomorrow, reads: “They have the weapons. F*** them, we have the champagne.”
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Old 11-17-2015, 10:26 AM
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So, Charlie Hebdo is honest, ISIS is honest, but which of those two do you root for, whose vision would you prefer to conquer the world?
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Old 11-17-2015, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
So, Charlie Hebdo is honest, ISIS is honest, but which of those two do you root for, whose vision would you prefer to conquer the world?
I don't think such a choice would make any sense, but, just as a side note, I suppose even the wildest islamist organizations (like ISIS) have some respect towards their dead fellows.
The total liberalism in Europe, which lead things like CH to be allowed, is also one of the reasons why so many people already left european countries and now are fighting for ISIS in the middle east.

Last edited by SomeOneElse; 11-17-2015 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 11-17-2015, 02:50 PM
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I don't think such a choice would make any sense, but, just as a side note, I suppose even the wildest islamist organizations (like ISIS) have some respect towards their dead fellows.
The total liberalism in Europe, which lead things like CH to be allowed, is also one of the reasons why so many people already left european countries and now are fighting for ISIS in the middle east.
One group makes off-color jokes...the other literally burns people to death for fun.

Tough choice there.
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:31 PM
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One group makes off-color jokes...the other literally burns people to death for fun.

Tough choice there.
The question wasn't who succeeded to burn more people or whatever, but "whose vision would you prefer to conquer the world?".
These jokes do not pop up from nowhere, instead, they represent the current ideology of the western world. They are a somewhat radical form of it, just like salafism is a radical form of Islam. I am not comparing jokes and terrorist attacks, but ideologies, both of which, after all, lead to dehumanization and other bad things.
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:58 PM
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MS social media is on fire with this shit. Lots of people who usually don't even talk about politics are chiming in.
That's me. I hate spouting off on Facebook about politics or religion, but after much hesitation I joined the fray. I just felt that I needed to add my voice. But tbh, it is discouraging to see so much fear, misinformation and selfishness around this issue.
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:58 PM
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The question wasn't who succeeded to burn more people or whatever, but "whose vision would you prefer to conquer the world?".
These jokes do not pop up from nowhere, instead, they represent the current ideology of the western world. They are a somewhat radical form of it, just like salafism is a radical form of Islam. I am not comparing jokes and terrorist attacks, but ideologies, both of which, after all, lead to dehumanization and other bad things.
I look at the image you posted and only one thing comes to me. One feeling that is stronger than any other. PRIDE. This is an image of defiance. An image that dares to show the heinous terrorists that the people of France are not bowed by the atrocities carried out against them. That image is the exact opposite of dehumanisation and celebrates th spirit and life of the French people.

When I see that image I, an irish man, feel proud to have a connection with the French people.

But, you can look at it and see whatever you like.
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