art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 12: The Gathering Storm
User Name
Password

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 01-06-2010, 05:56 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,845
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Well, that is not the only thing they got out of it. It is known that while they are not really on the same side as humans, they are definitely opposed to the Shadow. Mat has been (and will be) important in the fight to prevent the DO from obliterating all the *finns (and other beings).
Giving Mat what he needed in order to be effective was definitely to their advantage.
  #82  
Old 01-06-2010, 06:15 PM
Spasmodean Spasmodean is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 252
Spasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Well, that is not the only thing they got out of it. It is known that while they are not really on the same side as humans, they are definitely opposed to the Shadow. Mat has been (and will be) important in the fight to prevent the DO from obliterating all the *finns (and other beings).
Giving Mat what he needed in order to be effective was definitely to their advantage.
And yet they still hung him by the neck from Avendesora
  #83  
Old 01-06-2010, 06:16 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,845
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

They may have known that Rand was going to show up just in time.
They did know enough to tell Mat about his upcoming wedding, so why not about something that was a lot closer still in time?
  #84  
Old 01-06-2010, 06:21 PM
Spasmodean Spasmodean is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 252
Spasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
They may have known that Rand was going to show up just in time.
They did know enough to tell Mat about his upcoming wedding, so why not about something that was a lot closer still in time?
I thought one set of Finns told him things, the others gave him things.

One set said he'd live and die again, the others killed him (or possibly they refer to the balefire in Caemlyn thing).

Either way, I got the impression that all of the "Fool bla bla, we shall set the price" line the fox folk fed him implied that they were quite happy to hang him till he died on that tree and only Rand coming along (Ta'veren chance at work?) and knowing CPR saved him.
  #85  
Old 01-06-2010, 06:52 PM
Yuri33 Yuri33 is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 500
Yuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
It's not separate from the discussion at all. That doesn't mean you can single out any point I make and rebut it based on the fact that it doesn't necessitate raven tattoos or have anything to do with the detail from 4-6.
You can't have it both ways.

To borrow a tactic you commonly emply yourself: That doesn't NOT mean I can single out any point you make and rebut it based on the fact that it doesn't necessitate raven tattoos or have anything to do with the detail from 4-6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
They do have a twisted sense of humor, though, and that should be enough, I think.
That's a huge stretch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
It's idiotic, and makes you look like a spambot or something.
There's a long response and a short response to this. I'm going with the short:

If you believe what I'm posting is spam, ignore it.
  #86  
Old 01-06-2010, 09:25 PM
nameless nameless is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,254
nameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmodean View Post
I thought one set of Finns told him things, the others gave him things.

One set said he'd live and die again, the others killed him (or possibly they refer to the balefire in Caemlyn thing).

Either way, I got the impression that all of the "Fool bla bla, we shall set the price" line the fox folk fed him implied that they were quite happy to hang him till he died on that tree and only Rand coming along (Ta'veren chance at work?) and knowing CPR saved him.
The hanging didn't kill him; even Rand isn't ta'veren enough to bring a dead man back to life with CPR. "To die and live again" refers to the balefire incident at Caemlyn.
  #87  
Old 01-06-2010, 09:41 PM
Daekyras's Avatar
Daekyras Daekyras is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,772
Daekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nameless View Post
The hanging didn't kill him; even Rand isn't ta'veren enough to bring a dead man back to life with CPR. "To die and live again" refers to the balefire incident at Caemlyn.
Now I'm imagining Rand as Mitch in Baywatch....Stephanie is played by a trolloc...
__________________
You know what is comparable to LotR? Dragonlance. -Toss the Dice

He just got carried away a bit this time, probably as a result of his marriage-gonzothegreat

Son of Nazbaque, Lord of Fire
  #88  
Old 01-07-2010, 02:18 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri33 View Post
You can't have it both ways.

To borrow a tactic you commonly emply yourself: That doesn't NOT mean I can single out any point you make and rebut it based on the fact that it doesn't necessitate raven tattoos or have anything to do with the detail from 4-6.
Yeah it does. You have to argue against things based on what they are about. If you don't, then you look like an idiot. But feel free.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #89  
Old 01-07-2010, 02:55 AM
Yuri33 Yuri33 is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 500
Yuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
You have to argue against things based on what they are about.
That's hilarious, considering the rebuttal I posted said very little about tattoos or the 4-6 detail.

Regardless, as long as the discussion resides in this thread, rebuttals based on tattoos/4-6 detail are an entirely valid and necessary line of argument, since you yourself stated that the discussion isn't separate at all. If that point isn't consistently made, then by implication it will be assumed that we all believe the 4-6 detail IS the tattoos and that we've moved on from there under that assumption. I imagine that is exactly what you would like.

If you're just bringing up some observations, and don't want them compared against the 4-6 detail or tattoos, then do it elsewhere.
  #90  
Old 01-07-2010, 09:32 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

They are observations that are related to my theory on the detail, but my theory is not dependent on those observations, and those observations are not dependent on the theory. Your approach is like those who use arguments against barrier degradation as a rebuttal to construct theory (meaning, confused at best).
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #91  
Old 01-17-2010, 05:24 PM
yaje yaje is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 15
yaje is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekyras View Post
I
I have never liked the idea of Mat becoming da'covale as it doesn't really seem to fit with him personally or with the relationship between him and (for)Tuon.
i dissagree. the male female power balance in these books seems to lean toward the female. raven tattos would def place him below tuon in some manner of speaking.

i would give this theory credence from the point of view that should mat get raven tattoos, loose an eye, and become captain of the deathwatch he would fullfill a character developement arc ("a lazy, mischevious, layabout ---> a dutiful, serious, husband") and gain allot of depth w/ contrast, making him an even more interesting character.

plus a dream fortelling involving living ravens embedded into the flesh strongly suggests the tattoo
  #92  
Old 01-18-2010, 01:37 PM
padfoot89 padfoot89 is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 171
padfoot89 will become famous soon enoughpadfoot89 will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yaje
i would give this theory credence from the point of view that should mat get raven tattoos, loose an eye, and become captain of the deathwatch he would fullfill a character developement arc ("a lazy, mischevious, layabout ---> a dutiful, serious, husband") and gain allot of depth w/ contrast, making him an even more interesting character.
Actually, I'd be pretty unhappy if Mat did end up being a dutiful, serious husband. He's my favorite character precisely because he's a mischievous guy.

Quote:
Title: The Dragon Reborn
Chapter: The Awakening

“I have to look out for myself,” he said angrily. He upended the wine pitcher over his silver cup and was surprised to find it empty. He filled the cup with milk, instead. “Egwene and Nynaeve want to be Aes Sedai.” He had not really remembered that until he said it aloud. “Rand is following Moiraine around and calling himself the Dragon Reborn. The Light knows what Perrin is up to. He’s been acting crazy ever since his eyes turned funny. I have to look out for myself.” Burn me, I have to! I’m the last one of us who’s still sane. There’s only me.
One of my favorite parts...
  #93  
Old 01-19-2010, 09:51 PM
yaje yaje is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 15
yaje is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by padfoot89 View Post
Actually, I'd be pretty unhappy if Mat did end up being a dutiful, serious husband. He's my favorite character precisely because he's a mischievous guy.


thats not exactly what i intended to say. i shortened that post up considerably. i had limited time.

mat has always had disparate themes. i dont think that if he becomes serious, dutiful,...ect. he would lose those qualities you (and all of us) like. it would just add to the contrast which is what i really like about him.
  #94  
Old 01-19-2010, 09:59 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Dutiful husbands are not inherently boring, or emasculated in any way. Mat can be a dutiful husband while retaining his charm.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #95  
Old 01-20-2010, 03:54 AM
Wantanswers Wantanswers is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 38
Wantanswers has a spectacular aura aboutWantanswers has a spectacular aura aboutWantanswers has a spectacular aura about
Default

Quote:
Mat spoke strange words she almost understood – the Old Tongue, she thought – and two ravens alighted on his shoulders, claws sinking through his coat into the flesh beneath. He seemed no more aware of them than Perrin had been of the hawk and falcon, yet defiance passed across his face, and then grim acceptance
Your whole theory is based on this dream of Egwene. This dream is simular to the dream she had about Perrin with a falcon and a hawk. The falcon and the hawk are Faile and Berelain. The two ravens are Tuon and Selucia and he has them on his shoulders since he kidnapped them.
"claws sinking through his coat into th flesh beneath". This means that Matt is tied to them, even more since Tuon made Selucia her truthspeaker. I suppose Selucia will Matt's truthspeaker as well.
"Not being aware of them" tells us that he will do what he has to do, whatever they say to him.
The last part of the dream describes how his feelings about Tuon and his marriage will change.
The whole story you can read in the books 9-11.
I think you'll have to start a new theory, because this one is based on quicksand.
  #96  
Old 01-20-2010, 04:22 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wantanswers View Post
Your whole theory is based on this dream of Egwene.
Not completely - there are other clues to go along with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by w
This dream is simular to the dream she had about Perrin with a falcon and a hawk.
Similar, but not the same. As has already been pointed out in the thread several times, the falcon and the hawk didn't sink into Perrin's flesh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by w
This means that Matt is tied to them, even more since Tuon made Selucia her truthspeaker.
What does Selucia as Mat's Truthspeaker have to do with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by w
The whole story you can read in the books 9-11.
Really? I must have missed those books...

Quote:
Originally Posted by w
I think you'll have to start a new theory, because this one is based on quicksand.
I think you'll have to hang around a little while longer and prove your worth before you can make statements like this without making people laugh.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #97  
Old 01-20-2010, 08:25 AM
Daekyras's Avatar
Daekyras Daekyras is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,772
Daekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yaje View Post
i would give this theory credence from the point of view that should mat get raven tattoos, loose an eye, and become captain of the deathwatch he would fullfill a character developement arc ("a lazy, mischevious, layabout ---> a dutiful, serious, husband") and gain allot of depth w/ contrast, making him an even more interesting character.
I really don't think Mat being OWNED by Tuon bears any resemblence to their relationship thus far in the books. To me they are clearly falling in love. Not thinking about ownership....

As for character arc, how does losing an eye or becoming a deathwatch captain make him "a dutiful, serious husband"?

Mat will still be Mat. And forever should he stay that way....
__________________
You know what is comparable to LotR? Dragonlance. -Toss the Dice

He just got carried away a bit this time, probably as a result of his marriage-gonzothegreat

Son of Nazbaque, Lord of Fire
  #98  
Old 01-21-2010, 01:02 PM
yaje yaje is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 15
yaje is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekyras View Post
I really don't think Mat being OWNED by Tuon bears any resemblence to their relationship thus far in the books. To me they are clearly falling in love. Not thinking about ownership....

Mat will still be Mat. And forever should he stay that way....
no i think that the point of a story with strong characters is to whitness their journey through life. should anyone remain an 18 year old forever??? i dont think it works like that.

no it doesnt bear any notable resemblence to their relationship thus far....but lets not forget the way rj laid out his relationship with tylin. very much one-sided.

basically this is the way i see it. fortuanna is the empress mat has to do what she says weather or not he gets tattoos. but mat is smart as shit and if fortuanna has any sense she will respect him.

then again maybe not. all i said was that i would not dismiss this. ravens embedded in the flesh....hello? anyone?
  #99  
Old 01-22-2010, 01:52 AM
Wantanswers Wantanswers is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 38
Wantanswers has a spectacular aura aboutWantanswers has a spectacular aura aboutWantanswers has a spectacular aura about
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Terez
I think you'll have to hang around a little while longer and prove your worth before you can make statements like this without making people laugh.
I hope you laughed as loud about my theory as I did about yours. The idea Matt to become a so'jhin made me realy laugh. As far as I know anything about the Seanchan it is impossible for the Nine Moons to be married with a so'jhin.
By the way; Odin was accompanied by two raven as well. They were bcalled Hugin and Munin.
  #100  
Old 01-22-2010, 02:22 AM
Yuri33 Yuri33 is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 500
Yuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Similar, but not the same. As has already been pointed out in the thread several times, the falcon and the hawk didn't sink into Perrin's flesh.
And as I've pointed out earlier, there are very plausable explanations for the difference--Perrin had a choice, Mat did not. Or alternatively, the ravens may represent a connection to the DO, considering Mat may have the DO's own luck.
 

Tags
da'covale, detail from 4-6, ghenjei, raven tattoos, so'jhin


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.