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  #41  
Old 12-28-2009, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian View Post
BTW, I like how you turned the argument around to suggest Mat won't actually be property, and that's why Ghenji comes into the picture.
I was impressed by that also

Tary a little, as Portia diBelmont might say, but any ideas as to why the Finns would ask Mat/strike a deal to have the ravens tattooed on his body?

And I don't mean to have moiraine released
I mean why would THEY want that?

The eye thing seems to be quite well recieved by most people as the price for moiraines release.
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  #42  
Old 12-29-2009, 12:10 AM
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Yes, but the price normally grants three wishes. Why should it be different this time?

Like I said before, the ravens might come about by some request related to Tuon.
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  #43  
Old 12-29-2009, 02:27 AM
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(on call, so I have no access to quote text in support of my rather hurried arguments...)

Among my several objections to this being the proposed "detail," none of this really matters in the end. The institution of slavery and leashing of damane are problems that will only resolve in the long term (i.e., outrigger novel territory), and have little to no impact on Tarmon Gai'don, the focus of the last two books.

Tuon discovered the flaw in a'dam two books ago, and her position hasn't budged. What makes you think her views on slavery will evolve any faster? Regardless of her love for Mat (at this point she only admits to herself affection--so even that is a slow process), her stated purpose, above even Mat, is to serve the Empire (as she expressed both internally and externally). At this point in time, dissolving slavery does not serve the Empire, and would take much longer than the timeframe of Tarmon Gai'don to resolve. Any catharsis about the foulness of slavery vis a vis Mat doesn't really change that.

The timing issue also is at odds with the "Vin's earring" analogy, as I understand that to have been something obvious and out in the open that had an immediate and profound effect on current events.

The other issue, as has been touched upon in earlier threads, is the lack of evidence for any link between the ToG and any possible tattooing of Mat. What request, at this point in time, is there for Mat to make in regards to Tuon? Keep her safe? How are the 'Finn's supposed to do that? Change her mind about Rand? The 'Finns don't really do that kind of thing.

BTW, I believe the "the mark of the Raven is forever" quote is being taken too far. The mark of the raven matters so long as the Empress says it does. The Seanchan exhibit "compartmentalized" thought. That is, custom dictates that as soon as something is (legally) claimed, whatever happened in the past means nothing. The moment Tuon claimed she was Empress (after a period of mourning), it simply was (there's a quote about how all the ceremony and stuff is meaningless). Tuon died, leaving Fortuona. No one would ever remember Tuon (another quote in TGS, but I don't have it right now). Suroth went from High Blood to da'covale in the span of a few words. The very moment Tuon finished the marriage ceremony, Toy became Matrim, and whatever comments Tuon made about cupbearers and whatnot became meaningless. Less than a day after becoming Prince of the Ravens, Musenga crumpled at the thought of calling Mat anything but "Highness" or looking him in the eye. The moment Tuon named Selucia Truthspeaker, it simply was.

If Mat shows up with raven tattoos on his shoulders, so what? Tuon never declared him property, nothing about those tattoos are legally established. She could choose to punish him for assuming the honor of being so'jhin to the Empress without earning it (which was the point of the tale of drunken Seanchan--not necessarily that the Empress was bound to make them her property), but given his current position within the Seanchan, the motive for illegally getting tattoos is moot and the justification for any analogous punishment is meaningless. Her other option in such a scenario would be to simply choose to declare the tattoos meaningless. If the Empress declares it, then that's what it is--I don't believe she would be "trapped" in the situation.

If there's any issue of significance that is going to be addressed in the ToG other than Moiraine's freedom, I believe it would be related to the Shadow, since, as we have been told, questions touching the Shadow are supposed to be dangerous (yet there's no evidence for that so far--Rand never suffered for his questions). That warning is a nice bit of foreshadowing. It's corroborated by RJ himself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Q: Also, what was going on in Aelfland when Mat went round and round and round the same location? Were they traveling in time?
RJ: Not traveling in time. the physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the Dark One here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is really bad. You can not go to Aelfland in Tel'aran'rhiod (similar to stedding).
We also have:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Question: In The Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his One Power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal [only ter'angreal, actually - Terez] out of the Tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began. Is this a connection or coincidence?
Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.
Question Part 2: In that case, what was Lanfear doing?
Jordan: She was checking his health. She doesn't care very much, except that he is important to Rand, to Lews Therin, him and Perrin both, so she is interested in, the one she wants mainly is Lews Therin, or wanted anyway, and uh, so she is interested in these other two ta'veren, who seemed to be tied in with him, because they might be important to him.
We also have that "Fortune rides on the foxes shoulders" (I don't have the exact quote to reference right now). The significance is important as this phrase is part of established prophecy, and was specifically cited by Noal, one of the ToG companions. Mat has the DO's own luck. Maybe the DO (ravens) has his claws in Mat as well, or perhaps that will be part of the price that Mat must pay in the ToG.
  #44  
Old 12-29-2009, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Exactly. 'Mia ayende, Aes Sedai.' And Tylin said it again when Tuon tried to buy Mat: 'He is a free man, High Lady ... I cannot sell him.' Mat is a free man, and the ravens wouldn't change him. If he becomes dedicated to Tuon, it will be because he loves her, not because he's marked.
Do you have evidence for that?

There is a quote which directly contradicts it, you know:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 38, Hidden Faces
Most Seekers for Truth bore the ravens as well as the tower, but not even someone who dared steal a Seeker's plaque would have himself marked so. To wear the ravens was to be the property of the Imperial family. There was an old story of a fool young lord and lady who had themselves tattooed while drunk, some three hundred years gone. When the then Empress learned of it, she had them brought to the Court of the Nine Moons and set to scrubbing floors. This fellow might be one of their descendants. The mark of the raven was forever.
This says very explicitly that such a raven mark would indeed change his status irretrievably.

If you want to claim that applies to everyone but the consort of the Empress, then you're gonna have to produce some evidence for it.
  #45  
Old 12-29-2009, 07:05 AM
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@Yuri - Like I have said at least a couple of times before, I don't expect everything to be peachy at the end of the series with regards to the emancipation of the da'covale and damane at the end of the series, and this is not really the point anyway - the point is the truce. Tuon and Rand are at odds, fierce pride to fierce pride, but Mat and Tuon are at odds in a decidedly different way. They both believe wholeheartedly in the causes that they fight for, and while Mat knows he doesn't represent Rand's faction like Tuon represents hers, and tries to pretend he's not all that important in the scheme of things, he knows he's the closest thing to Rand.

As to how the ravens could lead to the truce....the differences between Mat and Tuon, the only things that put them at odds, are clear.

1. The da'covale. The notion of slavery is abhorrent to the people of Randland, even though Rand didn't mention it in his meeting with Tuon, and Perrin allowed Shaido to be taken for da'covale and damane. The notion of anything approaching overnight transformation of long-held cultural perspective is not much supported in the real world. But with Mat, there is an opportunity for some very rapid change, not least because he is ta'veren. Rand changed the way the Aiel live drastically, and essentially overnight. If Mat's tattoos cause Tuon to change the way she thinks about property, then this is one thing that is preventing the truce, down. And I don't think we are reading too much into the mark of the raven being forever at all. It is an iron-clad part of culture, to the point that no one would think of marking themselves that way. Egeanin's thoughts make that clear. Tuon has certain expectations about these things: for example, she had no fear of Seanchan farmers seeing her when she was in hiding with Mat, because she knew that no farmer had ever seen her face. But it is Mat that has the potential to make her views evolve rather more quickly than you would normally expect.

2. The damane. This is seen as worse than da'covale, probably because there is implication that a damane is even less of a person than a da'covale (while some da'covale can even have honored positions as so'jhin). Again, it is difficult to imagine something that could cause such a revolution overnight in the real world as the emancipation of the damane would be. But if Tuon channels, then two iron-clad Seanchan beliefs would be at war with one another: the belief that the Empress is as close to a human deity as is possible, and the belief that damane are not really people, are dangerous and should be collared, and should be even if they are members of the Imperial family. That has happened before, but never to an Empress. And make no mistake - Tuon is as close to channeling as any sul'dam has ever been, just on account of her skill. Other sul'dam have to tell their damane what to do, or at least rely on the damane knowing what to do without instruction. Tuon does not. She merely wills the damane to channel through the a'dam, to the point that it is as if she is doing the channeling herself. The fact that she looks so young for her age might simply be because of genetics....but what if she is slowing already? If she is slowing, then that means she has already channeled, and perhaps her regular linking with damane has kept her from realizing it. If she has done it before, then she will do it again, and I have often thought that the Pattern might have given her Mat to crumble her iron will, as much as for the direct problem of the truce. But the damane issue is a point Rand 'will not concede' (no doubt with Elayne and Aviendha at the forefront of his mind, not that Nynaeve is far behind). He makes no demands that she free all of her damane, but he refuses to allow her to leash the free channelers on his side, and that seems to be a deal-breaker for Tuon. There is only one thing in the books that really has obvious potential to make her channel, and that's Mat.

3. She means to consolidate the continent under her rule, but the rulers of the various nations mean to keep their lands. At the heart of that is Andor (which was made a provincial region under Hawkwing's rule), with Elayne probably providing the fiercest resistance (probably along with the Severed Band), which is a parallel to Aldeshar—Andor is made up of remains of Aldeshar and Caembarin and other bits, and Ishara's grandfather was the last king of Aldeshar. Aldeshar was the last nation to fall to Hawkwing's Consolidation, and Hawkwing's empire was built on his part in the War of the Second Dragon, against Guaire Amalasan. This particular Consolidation, the Corenne, is seen by Rand and Elayne and the rest as coming at the wrong time, the worst time, and the Dragon is the real one this time. But there has been a strong implication for some time now that they might be wrong about that. The constant references to the order that Seanchan bring, not least Rand's pilgrimage through the heart of Seanchan territory, and Fel's admonition that belief and order give strength, suggest that the Seanchan might be the key that Rand needs to unite the nations. Rand can see that now, but he still feels that he owes it to the east-north rulers, not least Elayne, to not concede that point. Even if Elayne agreed to rule under Tuon as Empress, Tuon would not allow a marath'damane to rule (not without a major paradigm shift). However, there is a reference in the BWB to the fact that Hawkwing was universally loved by the common people, and only the nobility had any issue with his rule.

Ghenjei is simply a well-established means for things like this - as I said, any number of things could lead to Mat getting the tattoos there. If we take the dream to mean that he will get tattoos, then Ghenjei is the most logical place for him to get them, as it's the next spot on Mat's itinerary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzo
This says very explicitly that such a raven mark would indeed change his status irretrievably.
Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? It's childish. I have repeatedly addressed the fact that the mark of the raven is forever, and that Mat's character is sufficient to transcend that.
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  #46  
Old 12-29-2009, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
There is a quote which directly contradicts it, you know:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 38, Hidden Faces
Most Seekers for Truth bore the ravens as well as the tower, but not even someone who dared steal a Seeker's plaque would have himself marked so. To wear the ravens was to be the property of the Imperial family. There was an old story of a fool young lord and lady who had themselves tattooed while drunk, some three hundred years gone. When the then Empress learned of it, she had them brought to the Court of the Nine Moons and set to scrubbing floors. This fellow might be one of their descendants. The mark of the raven was forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo
This says very explicitly that such a raven mark would indeed change his status irretrievably.

If you want to claim that applies to everyone but the consort of the Empress, then you're gonna have to produce some evidence for it.

I don't think Yuri was saying that if, if, Mat did get tattooed he wouldn't be property.

I think he is saying that if Tuon didn't want him to be property anymore she could just say so because her word is law as she is the empress...
I only have book 4 here with me so no quotes to back that up(as usual!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri
The other issue, as has been touched upon in earlier threads, is the lack of evidence for any link between the ToG and any possible tattooing of Mat. What request, at this point in time, is there for Mat to make in regards to Tuon? Keep her safe? How are the 'Finn's supposed to do that? Change her mind about Rand? The 'Finns don't really do that kind of thing.
Agreed, but not only that, why would the finns want Mat to be marked in that way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Yes, but the price normally grants three wishes. Why should it be different this time?

Like I said before, the ravens might come about by some request related to Tuon.
Again, Why?
Mat: First finns, you foxy/snaky bastards, I've got 3 requests:
1. Release Moiraine
2. Help look after the Band
3. something about Tuon.

Finns: Ok, but ALL we ask in return is
1. You lose an eye
2. You lose your awesome memories
3. You get two sweet ravens tattooed on your shoulders.

Mat: Sounds reasonable, but see I've got this aunt, and well, like, she's been sick and stuff and....Ah, bloody hell, I brought IRON bitches, and Fire and Thom plays the flute and stuff and Noal who will also help me beat you in some way also..

I know that's fascetious but by god they foreshadow beating the game snakes and foxes enough...
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He just got carried away a bit this time, probably as a result of his marriage-gonzothegreat

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Last edited by Daekyras; 12-29-2009 at 07:14 AM.
  #47  
Old 12-29-2009, 07:11 AM
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@Daekyras - I feel like you did not actually read any of my posts.
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  #48  
Old 12-29-2009, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
@Daekyras - I feel like you did not actually read any of my posts.
Ah, found out at last.... (if at last means 1 month lol)...

Only joking. Of course I read them and as always they are way better backed up and formulated than mine.

I just have a different interpretation of the things we read.
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  #49  
Old 12-29-2009, 02:05 PM
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The mention of Mat becoming property has occurred enough times in the books that it would be nice if something did come of it. I'm not sure that I'm convinced that this is the small detail, though.

However, the discussion did remind me of Lidya's foretelling:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 36 - Under an Oak

"You know that damane can tell fortunes?" She gave him a stern look, likely expecting him to call it superstition, but he nodded curtly. Some Aes Sedai could Foretell the future. Why not a damane? "I asked Lidya to tell mine just before I landed at Ebou Dar. This is what she said. 'Beware the fox that makes the ravens fly, for he will marry you and carry you away. Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face, for he will marry you and set you free. Beware the man of the red hand, for him you will marry and none other.' It was your ring that caught my eye first." He thumbed the long ring unconsciously, and she smiled. A small smile, but a smile. "A fox apparently startling two ravens into flight and nine crescent moons. Suggestive, wouldn't you say? And just now you fulfilled the second part, so I knew for certain it was you." Selucia made a sound in her throat, and Tuon waggled fingers at her. The bosomy little woman subsided, adjusting her head scarf, but the look she shot at Mat should have been accompanied by a dagger in her hand.
So, 'he will marry you and set you free'... free from what? Free from the Seanchan structures of damane and da'covale, perhaps?
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Old 12-29-2009, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 View Post
The mention of Mat becoming property has occurred enough times in the books that it would be nice if something did come of it. I'm not sure that I'm convinced that this is the small detail, though.

However, the discussion did remind me of Lidya's foretelling:



So, 'he will marry you and set you free'... free from what? Free from the Seanchan structures of damane and da'covale, perhaps?
Well, technically he already set her free. She was his captive when they were fleeing Ebou Dar, then they got married and he sent her on her way.
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  #51  
Old 12-29-2009, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Bonzi77 View Post
Well, technically he already set her free. She was his captive when they were fleeing Ebou Dar, then they got married and he sent her on her way.
Yeah, that's correct, of course. I was trying to suggest a more symbolic interpretation rather than or in addition to the literal interpretation of the foretelling, though.
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Old 12-29-2009, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
But with Mat, there is an opportunity for some very rapid change, not least because he is ta'veren.
Tuon has already demonstrated her ability, through sheer will, to resist an even more powerful ta'veren.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
But it is Mat that has the potential to make her views evolve rather more quickly than you would normally expect.
There is no evidence for an increase in the evolution of Tuon's thinking based on her interactions with Mat. In fact, the evidence so far shows a very slow progression of thinking (as I've already shown in regards to the da'mane). There is a unique relationship, sure, and this is important, but Tuon has resisted every one of Mat's attempts at persuasion.

You are right, the point is the truce between Rand and Tuon. So far, however, the only people to show any progress are Setalle Anan (cultural tolerance) and (perhaps) Tylee, who first implanted the thought of a truce in her head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
But if Tuon channels, then two iron-clad Seanchan beliefs would be at war with one another: the belief that the Empress is as close to a human deity as is possible, and the belief that damane are not really people, are dangerous and should be collared, and should be even if they are members of the Imperial family.
If she channels, then this will be the primary mechanism of change, not Mat. The discussion of how close she is to channeling is irrelevant. Also, while the Empress herself channeling would be a major disruptive blow to the Empire, it's the a'dam's secret that forms the pillar of power behind the Seanchan Empire. That secret getting out (which has already started to a small extent), is equally as disruptive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
There is only one thing in the books that really has obvious potential to make her channel, and that's Mat.
What exactly could Mat do to force Tuon to channel? Certainly nothing to do with raven tattoos. If Mat is in some immediate danger, and she were the only one available to help, it might be possible, but there's really no indication for that being possible right now. I really do not foresee the Empress ever being without guard again for the rest of this series. She's going to be surrounded by Deathwatch Guards and damane, both of which could intervene on her behalf to save Mat if the situation (as unlikely as it is) were to come up.

Rand is the one who is constantly put under impossible situations and forced to do impossible things to overcome them (channeling the TP, etc.). When Bethamin and Seta first channeled, it was under similar stressful circumstances. This really hasn't been a theme with Tuon, and a similar situation for her is unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Rand can see that now, but he still feels that he owes it to the east-north rulers, not least Elayne, to not concede that point. Even if Elayne agreed to rule under Tuon as Empress, Tuon would not allow a marath'damane to rule (not without a major paradigm shift).
And a couple of raven tattoos on her lover's shoulders is supposed to spark this change? This is the "Vin's earring" moment? It just doesn't fit. Just look at her mental gymnastics in justifying the difference between herself and damane when confronted about the truth of the a'dam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tere
Ghenjei is simply a well-established means for things like this - as I said, any number of things could lead to Mat getting the tattoos there. If we take the dream to mean that he will get tattoos, then Ghenjei is the most logical place for him to get them, as it's the next spot on Mat's itinerary.
Actually, you haven't described anything specific as how Mat gets tattoos in the ToG, only that he makes some request related to Tuon and this somehow results in him getting tattoos. And the next place on Mat's itinerary is a month long stay in Caemlyn, not a trip to the ToG. From everything I've read, getting a tattoo at local parlor in a moment of drunken weakness (or a failed bet, as Rand sees Mat dicing in Caemlyn) is easily as likely as magically getting them inside the ToG. A couple of tattoos, even becoming property, just doesn't sound like the price the Finns typically extract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie
The mention of Mat becoming property has occurred enough times in the books that it would be nice if something did come of it.
Every one of those references were negated the moment she married Mat, and perhaps a little before then as well. To her, he's now a "lion in the high grass" and a man of many layers. We've had multiple PoVs of Tuon since the marriage, and none of them have even a whiff of her former thoughts about Mat being property. It's that "compartmentalization" of thought that I referred to earlier.

Last edited by Yuri33; 12-29-2009 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:02 PM
Bane Darkwulf Bane Darkwulf is offline
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The big question is: is the "item" a physical thing, or a concept, or a group of people?

Anyone got any definitive answers on this?
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:32 PM
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The whole not quite serious chatter about making Mat a cup bearer (who we know are chosen for beauty) seemed to me to be Tuon's fumbling style of flirting.

@ Bane - I get the impression that it was an event of mention of an event. The "Tell the Dragon Reborn" tinker massacre seems to be one of the more mysterious events in the series however even that doesn't fit the criteria we've been given.

Last edited by Spasmodean; 12-29-2009 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 12-29-2009, 06:55 PM
Bane Darkwulf Bane Darkwulf is offline
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Look back to when Tuon lirst met Mat. The entire time she was acting like a spoiled rich girl(which she is)falling in love, even unwittingly, with someone she feels is unequal to her.

1)She tries to impress Mat with her with her wealth, offering to pay 10x the price of the Ashandari

2)She tries to impress him with her power and make him feel gratitude for not using it on him (the constant threats of making him Da'covale)

3)Constantly making it to where she could see him and make him notice her, yet acting like he was beneath her notice, or it was completely random

4)Asking if he recognized Hawkwing's face, as being Ta'Veren wouldn't have made her do that without her already at least leaning towards liking him

All of her actions are reasonable when viewed in this light.
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Old 12-30-2009, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane Darkwulf View Post
All of her actions are reasonable when viewed in this light.
Reasonable? A spoiled rich girl being reasonable*?
I think that you would have done better if you'd used the word "understandable". Apart from that, I agree with your analysis.

* All right, I admit: Paris Hilton was acting very reasonable when she announced her candidacy for the presidency. So it is not totally impossible, I know. Still ...
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Old 12-30-2009, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Reasonable? A spoiled rich girl being reasonable*?
I think that you would have done better if you'd used the word "understandable". Apart from that, I agree with your analysis.

* All right, I admit: Paris Hilton was acting very reasonable when she announced her candidacy for the presidency. So it is not totally impossible, I know. Still ...
That is what I meant, Gonzo. Thank you for pointing out that flaw.
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Old 01-01-2010, 04:21 PM
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The biggest problem with Mat getting the raven tattoos through the tower of Ghenji is that the 3 wishes from the Eelfinn are based on old compacts that Mat will very likely break during his rescue of Moiraine. What we know of the deal is: humans get their three answers/three wishes; Finn people get assurances that the humans will not invade them with fire, iron, and music. They're not likely to stand around smiling and granting wishes for someone who brought a gleeman, a pack of fireworks, and a bunch of horseshoes.
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Old 01-01-2010, 10:20 PM
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He has to lose the eye and rescue Moiraine somehow though, so it's likely that the wishes will come into play - how else would he lose an eye?
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Old 01-01-2010, 11:10 PM
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It's the Band of the Red Hand.
 

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da'covale, detail from 4-6, ghenjei, raven tattoos, so'jhin


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