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  #1  
Old 04-15-2012, 09:42 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
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Default The Opposite of the True Power.

The True Power... the essence of the Dark One.

What if you could channel the essence of the Creator?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Towers of Midnight
The man himself seemed to be glowing. Was it a reflection of the swaths of fire or perhaps the lightning blasts? Al'thor seemed brighter than all, his hand upraised against the Shadowspawn.

He... glows?

Quote:
He studied her, hands still behind his back. Just behind him, thirteen sisters quietly filed into the Hall, the glow of saidar around them as they maintained his shield.

Rand didn't seem to care about that...

....
He asked [to leave] so polietely, she couldn't tell if he was mocking her or not? She met his eyes. Don't make me do anything i would regret his expression seemed to say.
He can overpower a full circle.

Quote:
The darkness was enormous, covering the entirety of his mind. Thousands upon thousands of tiny black thorns pricked into his brain but beneath them was a brilliant white lacing of... something! A white radiance, like liquid Power. Light given form and life.
White light protects him from the madness. We know that tapping the True Power, the essence of the Dark One, causes madness.

Therefore, it stands to reason that tapping the essence the Creator might HEAL madness.

And finally, to tap the True Power, you must be annointed by the Dark One, given his permission to channel it. Doing so, means committing yourself to serving the Dark One. So, presuming that Rand is tapping the power of the Creator, when might he have gained the ability to do so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gathering Storm
That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love and peace, joy and hope.

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!

That's why he fought. That's why he lived again and that was the answer to Tam's quesiton. I fight because last time, I failed. I fight because I want to fix what I did wrong. I want to do it right this time.
That was a moment of commitment to the light, a moment that could serve as an annointing by the Creator, allowing him access to the Power of Light, granting him the ability to see all of the lives he had lived and healing his madness.

It would explain his massive strength (If the Light could be used to augment saidin, to make his weaving stronger)

It would explain his miraculous recovery, the ability to see into the souls of other men and the fact that darkfriends can't stand to look upon him.


Rand is touching the Power of the Creator (which may be the key to restoring him to life as well).
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He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
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  #2  
Old 04-15-2012, 10:06 PM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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I thought this as well, lol. I also think what happened in book one, with Rand glowing and THE VOICE that he heard in all, is similar to what is happening now. And seeing at how cryptic an evasive both RJ and BS are about the subject, I think it might be likely.
Quote:
Robert Jordan
Who says the Creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind? And I will neither confirm nor deny that the Creator spoke to Rand.
So it is possible that maybe the creator is finally taking action, of a sorts, to help defeat the DO once and for all.
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  #3  
Old 04-15-2012, 11:52 PM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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Terez is going to disagree because she thinks (with some very good reasons) that Bright Rand is being presented in a deliberately misleading way and he doesn't actually know as much as he thinks he does.

That said, I think there's something going on - the glowing, the light surrounding the taint on his brain... I wouldn't say that I think he's been channeling the essence of the Creator, though - there are other things it could be, and it would go against our understanding that the Creator doesn't play a role.
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  #4  
Old 04-16-2012, 08:45 AM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Well the point is that none of us have any proof or any solid reason to think this way or that. Only BS and his team do. Everything that has to do with the Creator and his role, or lack there of, in the story is RAFO.
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  #5  
Old 04-16-2012, 09:23 PM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
The True Power... the essence of the Dark One.

What if you could channel the essence of the Creator?




He... glows?



He can overpower a full circle.



White light protects him from the madness. We know that tapping the True Power, the essence of the Dark One, causes madness.

Therefore, it stands to reason that tapping the essence the Creator might HEAL madness.

And finally, to tap the True Power, you must be annointed by the Dark One, given his permission to channel it. Doing so, means committing yourself to serving the Dark One. So, presuming that Rand is tapping the power of the Creator, when might he have gained the ability to do so?



That was a moment of commitment to the light, a moment that could serve as an annointing by the Creator, allowing him access to the Power of Light, granting him the ability to see all of the lives he had lived and healing his madness.

It would explain his massive strength (If the Light could be used to augment saidin, to make his weaving stronger)

It would explain his miraculous recovery, the ability to see into the souls of other men and the fact that darkfriends can't stand to look upon him.


Rand is touching the Power of the Creator (which may be the key to restoring him to life as well).
I've been a big fan of the idea of Rand being the Creator's Avatar for a while. Then again, I also kind of want to upend half the accepted cosmology of WoT.

The glowing light is the best evidence of a kind of third power, the Light.

Also, as for overpowering, we know that 13 Aes Sedai can overpower Rand.

Quote:
Asmodean was not finished. "If two women link, they do not double their strength-linking is not as simple as adding together the power of each-but if they are strong epough, they can match a man. And when they take the circle to thirteen, then you must be wary. thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked. The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man, and barely breathe hard.
The point that Rand was making was basically the same as he had made previously. That if they tried to hold him, the Pattern would bend around him, to get him free. Theoretically, 13 sisters would be able to hold him without any difficulty. But what if every Sister kept not being able to grasp Saidar?

The fact that he said it, not so much as a threat, but a basic statement of how things would work, I think only re-enforces your point.
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  #6  
Old 04-16-2012, 09:26 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
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The Pattern can't do what's impossible... Unless you're saying it's going to Final Destination the Aes Sedai holding him into early graves. The implication of the scene is that Rand is now powerful enough to break the shield holding him.
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Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
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  #7  
Old 04-16-2012, 09:55 PM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
The Pattern can't do what's impossible... Unless you're saying it's going to Final Destination the Aes Sedai holding him into early graves. The implication of the scene is that Rand is now powerful enough to break the shield holding him.
It's impossible for an Aes Sedai to fail at grasping Saidar? Since it happens all over the books, I'm going to say it's not impossible.

If they can grasp Saidar 999,999,999 in a billion, then yeah, it's unlikely that they'll fail to do it. It's even more unlikely that it'd happen to all of the Aes Sedai in the Tower at once.

But that's the point. Unlikely things happen around Ta'varen.

As for that being his implication. Well, let's refer to a previous instance of Rand saying something similar, in the most awesome quote of all time.

Quote:
Cadsuane. Do you believe that I could kill you? Right here? Right now? Without the power or sword. Do you believe that if I simply willed it, the Pattern would bend around me and stop your heart?
That's what he's saying to Egwene. Not nearly as threateningly, but the same basic message. "If I really want/need it to happen, it will happen, so just leave me be."

He is not strong enough to stop 13 weak Aes Sedai from shielding him, much less 13 strong Aes Sedai.
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  #8  
Old 04-17-2012, 08:55 AM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flinn Sedai View Post
It's impossible for an Aes Sedai to fail at grasping Saidar? Since it happens all over the books, I'm going to say it's not impossible.

If they can grasp Saidar 999,999,999 in a billion, then yeah, it's unlikely that they'll fail to do it. It's even more unlikely that it'd happen to all of the Aes Sedai in the Tower at once.

But that's the point. Unlikely things happen around Ta'varen.

As for that being his implication. Well, let's refer to a previous instance of Rand saying something similar, in the most awesome quote of all time.



That's what he's saying to Egwene. Not nearly as threateningly, but the same basic message. "If I really want/need it to happen, it will happen, so just leave me be."

He is not strong enough to stop 13 weak Aes Sedai from shielding him, much less 13 strong Aes Sedai.
This is what I was thinking. I mean, Cadsuane is probably the most experienced Aes Sedai alive not including Rand and the Forsaken. She probably knows more than most Browns know, perhaps even more than Siuan! But even despite all this knowledge, she faltered and feared he actually could. And she's the sternest, most unflinching AS of them all.

The point is, is that if she of all people believes it's possible, then it very well could be.
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  #9  
Old 04-17-2012, 04:07 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flinn Sedai View Post
It's impossible for an Aes Sedai to fail at grasping Saidar? Since it happens all over the books, I'm going to say it's not impossible.

If they can grasp Saidar 999,999,999 in a billion, then yeah, it's unlikely that they'll fail to do it. It's even more unlikely that it'd happen to all of the Aes Sedai in the Tower at once.

But that's the point. Unlikely things happen around Ta'varen.

As for that being his implication. Well, let's refer to a previous instance of Rand saying something similar, in the most awesome quote of all time.



That's what he's saying to Egwene. Not nearly as threateningly, but the same basic message. "If I really want/need it to happen, it will happen, so just leave me be."

He is not strong enough to stop 13 weak Aes Sedai from shielding him, much less 13 strong Aes Sedai.
I diagree. The Pattern bends around Rand but not in a way he can control. And it doesn't just give him whatever he happens to need to get out of whatever mess he's gotten into. That would be Deus Ex Machina.

Rand can stop an army of hundreds od thousands of shadowspawn on his own. Single-handedly. That scene makes one thing very, very clear: the normal rules don't apply to Rand anymore. As far as I'm concerned no other channeler in history could do what he did so I have no problem believing he can thwart a circle of thirteen
__________________
He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
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  #10  
Old 04-17-2012, 04:44 PM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
I diagree. The Pattern bends around Rand but not in a way he can control. And it doesn't just give him whatever he happens to need to get out of whatever mess he's gotten into. That would be Deus Ex Machina.
The Pattern doesn't give ta'veren what they happen to need, to get out of their messes?

So, when Rand needed to pull Callandor from a heavily fortified position, the Pattern didn't set up Aiel to attack at exactly the right moment? Or have Moiraine show up at exactly the right time to save him from Bel'al?

When Rand needed to be acknowledged as the true Dragon, the Pattern didn't provide amazing co-incidences to take down the existing False Dragons? Thrown from a horse, then your entire army just deciding to leave? Really?

When Rand needed Channelers for his Black Tower, the Pattern didn't give him an unbelievably high incidence of sparkers?

When Rand needed Asha'man around him, he didn't happen to pick EXACTLY the right people? The only Asha'man not under Taim's control, who ended up being incredibly talented at healing, to save his life, later.

And Mat. No explanation needs to be given for him. Just Mat. His life.

That's what ta'veren does. It twists chance, to provide what the ta'veren needs.

And you're arguing something different. You're arguing that he can't. Which isn't relevant. I'm saying that this is what he was saying. He believes that he can control things like that. If you don't believe me, take it from Sanderson.

Quote:
Loialson: Can Rand consciously control his ta'veren pull to any degree? Specifically referencing to his meeting with Tuon to will her to submit to him, and when he threatened Cadsuane to will her dead.

Brandon Sanderson: He, um, believes that he can.

LOIALSON: Still, even after the The Gathering Storm reintegration?

BRANDON SANDERSON: He has a more zen view on it now, but he still believes that he can have some influence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Rand can stop an army of hundreds od thousands of shadowspawn on his own. Single-handedly. That scene makes one thing very, very clear: the normal rules don't apply to Rand anymore. As far as I'm concerned no other channeler in history could do what he did so I have no problem believing he can thwart a circle of thirteen
Yep. He was able to kill things because he is powerful. Let's see what Sanderson says, though...

Quote:
LOIALSON: Yes...Are the impressive displays of power that Rand makes in Towers of Midnight (i.e., stopping the Trolloc army and having no concern over being able to leave the White Tower) a result of his integrated knowledge or his ta'veren nature?

BRANDON SANDERSON: Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

Now, the thing about in the White Tower is something different.
Also, do you have any evidence that, as you said, "no other channeler in history could do what he did"?
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:59 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
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Originally Posted by Flinn Sedai View Post
The Pattern doesn't give ta'veren what they happen to need, to get out of their messes?

So, when Rand needed to pull Callandor from a heavily fortified position, the Pattern didn't set up Aiel to attack at exactly the right moment? Or have Moiraine show up at exactly the right time to save him from Bel'al?
No, it didn't. That's called narrative, my friend. Moiraine was already on her way there anyway. The aiel were sent by the Wise Ones.

It's sort of like how there is no magical explanation for how Han Solo just happened to show up just in time to shoot Vader's TIE fighter, thus allowing Luke to blow up the Death Star. He was in the area anyway and he had a change of heart. But saying the universe contrived to bring him there is invoking deus ex machina which RUINS a story.

Quote:
When Rand needed to be acknowledged as the true Dragon, the Pattern didn't provide amazing co-incidences to take down the existing False Dragons? Thrown from a horse, then your entire army just deciding to leave? Really?
That one I will accept as a bending of chance because it doesn't get Rand out of danger

Quote:
When Rand needed Channelers for his Black Tower, the Pattern didn't give him an unbelievably high incidence of sparkers?
Male Wilders would have been drawn to the Black Tower for no other reason than to stay alive. Scouting parties from the Black Tower visited every town from Taraborn to Shienar. This hardly strains credulity.


Quote:
When Rand needed Asha'man around him, he didn't happen to pick EXACTLY the right people? The only Asha'man not under Taim's control, who ended up being incredibly talented at healing, to save his life, later.
Give Rand some credit, my god! He's always had gut feelings about who he can and can't trust. If it turns out he's a good judge of character in this case, well, given some of his staggering flaws, he needs to do a FEW things right.

Quote:
And Mat. No explanation needs to be given for him. Just Mat. His life.
Yes, but Mat's super power appears to be uncanny luck. You may note that this has its limits. For instance, he's still in danger if a myrdraal looms over him... or the gholam. Chance can only be twisted so far.

Quote:
That's what ta'veren does. It twists chance, to provide what the ta'veren needs.
.

No, it doesn't. It twists chance to provide what the PATTERN needs, which may even include the death of the very ta'veren in quesiton. There's nothing that says that being ta'veren has to work in your favour. It's gotten Rand INTO quite a few scrapes as well.

And then there's the fact that ta'veren isn't a trump card. There are still elements of random chance that exist beyond the Wheel's control. The Dragon can die to a stray arrow or a bump to the head.

Quote:
And you're arguing something different. You're arguing that he can't. Which isn't relevant. I'm saying that this is what he was saying. He believes that he can control things like that. If you don't believe me, take it from Sanderson.
No, I'm saying that Rand is clearly aware of the fact that he is much, much more powerful than he had been prior to his moment of clarity. That he knows it is within his power to break free of the shield, which - given what he did in the temple - is probably related to an increase in strength in the Power.

At the beginning of the series, Rand was the strongest channeler alive... Now, he is stronger than he was at the beginning of the series. Strong enough to break a full circle.

My evidence for this is the sense of scale provided by the books. The fact that ordinary challeners like Egweme, Elayne and the others see even a hundred trollocs as a very serious threat. The fact that Rand can lay waste to nearly a million says something. And he is stronger than he had been in Knife of Dreams... In that battle, he had fifty some odd channelers for back up. In Towes of Midnight, he was on his own.
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He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:02 PM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
There are still elements of random chance that exist beyond the Wheel's control.
I'm not even going to address your fundamental misunderstanding of ta'veren, as your quote indicates you think that somehow things happen that has nothing to do with the Wheel. No way to dissuade you, because you don't even buy into the premise of the series, that the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
No, I'm saying that Rand is clearly aware of the fact that he is much, much more powerful than he had been prior to his moment of clarity. That he knows it is within his power to break free of the shield, which - given what he did in the temple - is probably related to an increase in strength in the Power.
Are you reading the posts? Sanderson disagrees with you. On authority of whether his behaviour in the White Tower was related to his greater Power, I'm going to defer to Sanderson. Here's the relevant part, if you missed it before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanderson
And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

Now, the thing about in the White Tower is something different.
Quote:
Loialson: Can Rand consciously control his ta'veren pull to any degree? Specifically referencing to his meeting with Tuon to will her to submit to him, and when he threatened Cadsuane to will her dead.

Brandon Sanderson: He, um, believes that he can.

LOIALSON: Still, even after the The Gathering Storm reintegration?

BRANDON SANDERSON: He has a more zen view on it now, but he still believes that he can have some influence.
Quote:
At the beginning of the series, Rand was the strongest channeler alive... Now, he is stronger than he was at the beginning of the series. Strong enough to break a full circle.
What evidence do you have that he was stronger than say, Ishy or Lanfear?

Quote:
And he is stronger than he had been in Knife of Dreams... In that battle, he had fifty some odd channelers for back up. In Towes of Midnight, he was on his own.
1) He's definitely stronger than in KoD. I have never disagreed with you on that. Quit making up arguments.

2) You still proved it poorly, because he killed almost the same number of Trollocs in each battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanderson
if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple
You do understand that Egwene and Nynaeve are not the most powerful Channelers in history, right? I ask because you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
no other channeler in history could do what he did
When I asked you to provide evidence, you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
The fact that ordinary challeners like Egweme, Elayne and the others see even a hundred trollocs as a very serious threat.
I'm not even saying he isn't the strongest Channeler alive, or in history. He probably is. What I'm pointing out is that you're arbitrarily designating the power to break a circle of 13, to him, despite every single piece of evidence.

Provide some evidence that he can do it. Try to prove that Sanderson is wrong about what he said Rand was thinking.

Otherwise, you're just wrong.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:12 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
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Originally Posted by Flinn Sedai View Post
I'm not even going to address your fundamental misunderstanding of ta'veren, as your quote indicates you think that somehow things happen that has nothing to do with the Wheel. No way to dissuade you, because you don't even buy into the premise of the series, that the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.
Okay, but it's not one or the other right? It's not a case of either you have fate OR you have random chance. They're not mutually exclusive. You can have fate trying to move events in a certain direction and exerting influence to that effect but still have elements that undermine the will of fate, causal agents that exist beyond fate's control. After all, why does the Wheel need to spin out ta'veren as corrective mechanisms if everything is already under its control? Why would the Pattern need adjusting if there wasn't also random chance? So, honestly, I think it's you who doesn't understand the premise of the series.

You can argue that the Pattern would get Rand out of a situation where he's being held captive by Aes Sedai because it needs him to run free but really it's a matter of interpretation. If you credit every single one of Rand's victories to the intercession of fate, then you remove anything that makes him a likable character. If you assume that the Pattern will show up with a get out of jail free card every time Rand is in trouble, then the series lacks tension, lacks excitment. After all, if there's no danger of him losing, then who cares if he wins?


The Pattern can influence, yes... but that doesn't mean its will can't be thwarted. Perhaps the ability to consciously direct the Pattern is one of Rand's new abilities? If so... well, it wouldn't be anymore Sue-like than his ability to identify darkfriends simply by meeting their eyes. So... shrug.


But my view of the Pattern is this... It will put Rand where he needs to be to make things better... but it's up to HIM to actually do it. The Pattern will make sure he gets to the field but Rand has to win the game all by himself.
__________________
He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
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  #14  
Old 04-17-2012, 11:19 PM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Okay, but it's not one or the other right? It's not a case of either you have fate OR you have random chance. They're not mutually exclusive. You can have fate trying to move events in a certain direction and exerting influence to that effect but still have elements that undermine the will of fate, causal agents that exist beyond fate's control. After all, why does the Wheel need to spin out ta'veren as corrective mechanisms if everything is already under its control? Why would the Pattern need adjusting if there wasn't also random chance? So, honestly, I think it's you who doesn't understand the premise of the series.

You can argue that the Pattern would get Rand out of a situation where he's being held captive by Aes Sedai because it needs him to run free but really it's a matter of interpretation. If you credit every single one of Rand's victories to the intercession of fate, then you remove anything that makes him a likable character. If you assume that the Pattern will show up with a get out of jail free card every time Rand is in trouble, then the series lacks tension, lacks excitment. After all, if there's no danger of him losing, then who cares if he wins?


The Pattern can influence, yes... but that doesn't mean its will can't be thwarted. Perhaps the ability to consciously direct the Pattern is one of Rand's new abilities? If so... well, it wouldn't be anymore Sue-like than his ability to identify darkfriends simply by meeting their eyes. So... shrug.


But my view of the Pattern is this... It will put Rand where he needs to be to make things better... but it's up to HIM to actually do it. The Pattern will make sure he gets to the field but Rand has to win the game all by himself.
Put down the Strawman. Re-read the posts.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:11 PM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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I think it can go both ways. Like the portal stone incident before Falme, the pattern shifted and made him arrive months later right when the Whitecloaks would be there to aid him. If he had shown up earlier, he and those few Shienarans wouldn't have stood a chance against all those Seanchan. Yeah I know it was because Rand didn't know what he was doing and used too much power, but it was the pattern stepping in that made him use just the right amount to get him there when he needed to be there.

Same when Perring first met Elyas. Elyas wondered all over the world, but him being in that area where another potential wolfbrother happened to wash up on shore was the pattern providing something Perrin desperately needed, even if he didn't know it at the time.

So while Seeker is mostly right in this, imo, there are some instances of deus ex machina in this series, all be it they aren't that major and help rather than harm the story because it isn't overdone.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:24 PM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Quote:
What evidence do you have that he was stronger than say, Ishy or Lanfear?
Ishy, I think they are about equal, we've never actually seen Ishy/Mori go ballistic with channeling like we have seen rand do, so I don't know. But I do know he is way stronger than Lanfear. Before Moiraine defeated her, she had an angreal and was barely able to keep Rand at bay, and he was holding back because he didn't want to kill a woman. If she was stronger, her with that angreal would have destroyed Rand. And now he is roughly twice as strong, if not stronger, than he was then.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:53 PM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
Ishy, I think they are about equal, we've never actually seen Ishy/Mori go ballistic with channeling like we have seen rand do, so I don't know. But I do know he is way stronger than Lanfear. Before Moiraine defeated her, she had an angreal and was barely able to keep Rand at bay, and he was holding back because he didn't want to kill a woman. If she was stronger, her with that angreal would have destroyed Rand. And now he is roughly twice as strong, if not stronger, than he was then.
We don't know he was way stronger. I mean, I would say he probably is stronger, but definitely not by as much as an Angreal. This is part of why RJ always said that fans put far more emphasis on Power Rankings than he was. A fight, or something similar, has more to do with where your Talents lie.

Quote:
Justin Howell
I asked why Elayne thought even a Forsaken couldn't break the shield Adeleas and Vandene were holding on Ispan, expecting the answer that Elayne is clue-impaired.

Robert Jordan
The correct answer is that holding a shield on someone depends not only on relative strength and fatigue, but also on whether the shield is held by channelers of the same sex as the victim. Thus two women (Adeleas and Vandene on Ispan, or Ispan and Falion on Nynaeve in A Crown of Swords) can hold another woman, but three women just get severed if they try to shield Rand.
Moreover, even their direct power comparison is skewed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fires of Heaven, Chapter 52
She was turning a bracelet in her hands. An angreal; unless Rand had his own angreal, she should be able to crush him with that. Either he did, or Lanfear was toying with him.
This is supported by Rand, earlier in the book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fires of Heaven, Chapter 44
He had long since taken to drawing on saidin through the angreal in his pocket, the stone carving of the fat little man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fires of Heaven, Chapter 52
He touched his pocket, felt the hard carved shape of the fat little man with his sword; that, was the only sword he needed today.
They were fairly evenly matched, both having angreal. That doesn't mean much, since angreal can be of differing strengths. However, it does suggest that he's not an angreal-multiplier worth stronger than Lanfear was.

Basically, they were pretty evenly matched in raw strength. It seems like she had a bit more raw power than him, but that doesn't indicate anything, because of the angreal. However, if he used LTT's knowledge of how to fight, he would have been able to kill her, because he knew stronger weaves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fires of Heaven, Chapter 52
Handling two weaves at once should have been easy-he could handle ten or more-but not when one was a desperate defense against something he could not know was there until it was almost too late. Not when another man’s thoughts kept trying to surface inside the Void, trying to tell him how to
defeat her.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:25 PM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Also remember Rand was not at full str4ength yet. Aolso there is what Asmo told him, that most men are stronger than women in the OP, and Rand is stronger than most men. Lanfear was at the top of the saidar scale, but Rand is leagues above the top of that scale now.
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:28 PM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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Yep. That's why I'm pretty sure that he was actually stronger than her. It's also quite possible that he's the strongest Channeler in history.

All I'm saying is that there absolutely no reason to think he can break a circle of 13, and that Rand was not saying it because of his strength. The latter is something that shouldn't really be a point of contention, since Sanderson explicitly said it. (I know you haven't claimed that. Just clarifying my point. )
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Old 04-17-2012, 11:44 PM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Well yeah. I don't know if he can break a circle of 13, but very much think he can. Just remember that Aes Sedai today are over all much weaker than in AOL. Also, they have never encountered one as strong as Rand is now. While 13 AOL AS, maybe even less, could probably easily shield Rand while half of them are sipping tea, 13 sisters today might very well have a much harder time at it. They knew this was a very likely possibility, which is why they had a whole extra 13 there as back-up.

As to the other debate, the way I see is that as long as Rand stays on the main path, the one the pattern is dropping breadcrumbs on, he can use the breadcrumbs to get what he needs, if you see what I'm saying. But he can still stray/be forced off that path where the pattern can't help him. And if he strays too far and gets lost, then the world is lost with him.

Also, I didn't say ta'veren was deus ex machina, but that there were some elements of it in the story.
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