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  #41  
Old 04-18-2012, 04:19 PM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Comparing Mog with Nyn doesn't prove much. You're comparing one the strongest AS with the Weakest Forsaken. All the other female forsaken or equal or stronger then Nyn. Looking at the chart, you see all the forsaken are way above the average AS in terms of strength, so its safe to assume most channelers from time were at that level. I doubt all the strongest channelers turned to the shadow.
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  #42  
Old 04-18-2012, 04:32 PM
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Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
Again, pretty much the same as I said. Of course, if the pattern abandoned him, he would no longer be ta'veren, so it wouldn't matter. lol.
Not necessarily. Remember, Rand has to die for the Light to win. he knows that and has accepted it with apparent humility, but what he may not know is when or where. Even his acceptance with apparent humility is a sign of his arrogance in thinking he turns the wheel and controls the pattern. The pattern/wheel will do what it needs to do to survive, not what Rand al'Thor thinks it should.

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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
Comparing Mog with Nyn udoesn't prove much. You're comparing one the strongest AS with the Weakest Forsaken. All the other female forsaken or equal or stronger then Nyn. Looking at the chart, you see all the forsaken are way above the average AS in terms of strength, so its safe to assume most channelers from time were at that level. I doubt all the strongest channelers turned to the shadow.
The Forsaken are the strongest AS who went over to the Shadow. We know from Cadsuane's comments in New Spring that the AS are getting weaker, so it stands to reason that the Forsaken are truly exceptional.
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  #43  
Old 04-18-2012, 05:08 PM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Not necessarily. Remember, Rand has to die for the Light to win. he knows that and has accepted it with apparent humility, but what he may not know is when or where. Even his acceptance with apparent humility is a sign of his arrogance in thinking he turns the wheel and controls the pattern. The pattern/wheel will do what it needs to do to survive, not what Rand al'Thor thinks it should.
Yeah I know. We are both saying he thinks that. What are you arguing about?

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The Forsaken are the strongest AS who went over to the Shadow. We know from Cadsuane's comments in New Spring that the AS are getting weaker, so it stands to reason that the Forsaken are truly exceptional.
Yes, out of all the AS that went to the shadow, they were the strongest. But how much stronger? But what about those that didn't? Thing is, if all the other dreadlords we're just a little bit weaker than Mogie, say on Eggy and Elayne's level, that would men the forseaken would the strongest of the shadow, but still the weakest then were as strongest as the second strongest today. In other words, back then, Eggy and Elayne would be at the bottom of the pot instead of in second place, as far as AS go.

There could have others on the side of the Light as strong or stronger than Lanfear. Also, it wasn't just strength that made them exceptional, but what they did.

Last edited by Edynol; 04-18-2012 at 05:10 PM.
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  #44  
Old 04-18-2012, 05:16 PM
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Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
The Forsaken are the strongest AS who went over to the Shadow. We know from Cadsuane's comments in New Spring that the AS are getting weaker, so it stands to reason that the Forsaken are truly exceptional.
It should be noted that the 13 Forsaken are just a sampling of the Channelers who went over to the DO. We, (and RJ,) put channlers as strong or stronger than Moghedien and Asmodean in a separate class -- "Forsaken Class" -- but that isn't really representative of Shadow Channelers.

Personally, I suspect that Moghedien and Asmodean aren't as strong as people think they are and "Forsaken Class" covers a wider range of power levels than commonly thought. They are still "above average" and stronger than the vast majority of Aes Sedai, but not as far above as most credit them with.

It is also probably worth noting that most of those who are as strong or stronger than Nyneave are not Aes Sedai or affiliated with the WT at the time of Nyneave's battle with Moghedien in the Panarch's Museum. Aes Sedai and the Forsaken both make the mistake of assuming the WT is the pinnacle of Channeling ability in the Third Age, when almost every Channeling group outside of the Tower has at least one person stronger than the Tower has seen in centuries, and several more talented.
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  #45  
Old 04-18-2012, 06:30 PM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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Here's the closest we have on the issue.

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- For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength. For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool. They have been very efficient at this. As a result, the “present day” sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.
The implication, from my reading of it, of course, is that strength always follows the bell curve. Obviously a bell curve can shift in either direction, but I always had the impression (perhaps incorrectly, now that I'm reviewing the data), that it was approximately the same.

That is to say, there will be fewer people of great strength in this Age, solely because there are fewer potential Channelers. Along different lines, there were fewer extremely weak Channelers in the Age of Legends, because there weren't as many Channelers needed. Thus, only those with greater potential would go through the rather grueling process to become an Aes Sedai.

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At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions.
Moreover, a lot of the data that we have from the Forsaken on their Power, should be considered suspect.

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I tried to ask shannow's question about how the Forsaken compared to each other in their strength of the Power. Being nervous, of course, I managed to flub that as well by saying, "There's a lot of contradictory information in the books about how the Forsaken are ranked in their strength in the Power. Could you rank the Forsaken more explicitly?" (or something to that effect.) RJ than explained that the Forsaken don't rank themselves in terms of strength in the Power as Aes Sedai do. (duh! Looks like I used the wrong turn of phrase, or RJ deliberately misinterpretated what I was getting at.) He went on to say that the Forsaken do not like to think of themselves as weaker than anyone else, and, due to their arrogance and ambition, will tend to understate other's abilities and overstate their own. He concluded by saying that, given these weaknesses in character that the Forsaken possess, any information that the Forsaken provide should be considered highly suspect.
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Q: I get the impression that Asmodean is weaker than Lanfear even before he was shielded. How much weaker etc.
RJ: RAFO. I don't go into that kind of thing. I know where they are. I also know they are highly unreliable. None of them is going to admit that anyone is that much stronger than they are, even when you are inside their heads. Don't take everything they say as the absolute truth or unbiased observation.
More importantly, we know that a lot of the powerful Channelers from the Age of Legends came over the Shadow.

Quote:
Tamyrlin: Well, then is there something unique about the Forsaken other than the fact that they are his favorites that he would transmigrate them, or be able to?
Jordan: Well, he would have been a lot less likely to in an earlier time when they were a lot of powerful, knowledgeable channelers who were in his service. Essentially half the people in the world who could channel were on his side, during the War of the Shadow. Now he has very few, he's got the Black Ajah, and a few wilders, and some stuff I ain't going in to, but uh he doesn't have a lot, but he can't afford to waste assets.
So, there is some evidence that it is similar, but basically any information we have on strengths in the Age of Legends, from the books, is unreliable. We don't have conclusive evidence either way.

Guess we need to take it to Sanderson.
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  #46  
Old 04-19-2012, 05:19 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
The Forsaken are the strongest AS who went over to the Shadow. We know from Cadsuane's comments in New Spring that the AS are getting weaker, so it stands to reason that the Forsaken are truly exceptional.
AS are, in average, getting weaker. But there is actually no evidence that the minimum standard for being an AS now is any different when it comes to strength than it used to be in the AOL. Actually, it may be that there wasn't such a minimum standard then, in which case the weakest AS now are a lot stronger than the weakest AS at the time were.
Without such a minimum, Morgase could have been an AS, but with it, she had no chance at all.
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