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  #21  
Old 04-17-2012, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Flinn Sedai View Post
I'm not even going to address your fundamental misunderstanding of ta'veren, as your quote indicates you think that somehow things happen that has nothing to do with the Wheel. No way to dissuade you, because you don't even buy into the premise of the series, that the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.
Okay, but it's not one or the other right? It's not a case of either you have fate OR you have random chance. They're not mutually exclusive. You can have fate trying to move events in a certain direction and exerting influence to that effect but still have elements that undermine the will of fate, causal agents that exist beyond fate's control. After all, why does the Wheel need to spin out ta'veren as corrective mechanisms if everything is already under its control? Why would the Pattern need adjusting if there wasn't also random chance? So, honestly, I think it's you who doesn't understand the premise of the series.

You can argue that the Pattern would get Rand out of a situation where he's being held captive by Aes Sedai because it needs him to run free but really it's a matter of interpretation. If you credit every single one of Rand's victories to the intercession of fate, then you remove anything that makes him a likable character. If you assume that the Pattern will show up with a get out of jail free card every time Rand is in trouble, then the series lacks tension, lacks excitment. After all, if there's no danger of him losing, then who cares if he wins?


The Pattern can influence, yes... but that doesn't mean its will can't be thwarted. Perhaps the ability to consciously direct the Pattern is one of Rand's new abilities? If so... well, it wouldn't be anymore Sue-like than his ability to identify darkfriends simply by meeting their eyes. So... shrug.


But my view of the Pattern is this... It will put Rand where he needs to be to make things better... but it's up to HIM to actually do it. The Pattern will make sure he gets to the field but Rand has to win the game all by himself.
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  #22  
Old 04-17-2012, 11:19 PM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Okay, but it's not one or the other right? It's not a case of either you have fate OR you have random chance. They're not mutually exclusive. You can have fate trying to move events in a certain direction and exerting influence to that effect but still have elements that undermine the will of fate, causal agents that exist beyond fate's control. After all, why does the Wheel need to spin out ta'veren as corrective mechanisms if everything is already under its control? Why would the Pattern need adjusting if there wasn't also random chance? So, honestly, I think it's you who doesn't understand the premise of the series.

You can argue that the Pattern would get Rand out of a situation where he's being held captive by Aes Sedai because it needs him to run free but really it's a matter of interpretation. If you credit every single one of Rand's victories to the intercession of fate, then you remove anything that makes him a likable character. If you assume that the Pattern will show up with a get out of jail free card every time Rand is in trouble, then the series lacks tension, lacks excitment. After all, if there's no danger of him losing, then who cares if he wins?


The Pattern can influence, yes... but that doesn't mean its will can't be thwarted. Perhaps the ability to consciously direct the Pattern is one of Rand's new abilities? If so... well, it wouldn't be anymore Sue-like than his ability to identify darkfriends simply by meeting their eyes. So... shrug.


But my view of the Pattern is this... It will put Rand where he needs to be to make things better... but it's up to HIM to actually do it. The Pattern will make sure he gets to the field but Rand has to win the game all by himself.
Put down the Strawman. Re-read the posts.
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  #23  
Old 04-17-2012, 11:25 PM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Also remember Rand was not at full str4ength yet. Aolso there is what Asmo told him, that most men are stronger than women in the OP, and Rand is stronger than most men. Lanfear was at the top of the saidar scale, but Rand is leagues above the top of that scale now.
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  #24  
Old 04-17-2012, 11:28 PM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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Yep. That's why I'm pretty sure that he was actually stronger than her. It's also quite possible that he's the strongest Channeler in history.

All I'm saying is that there absolutely no reason to think he can break a circle of 13, and that Rand was not saying it because of his strength. The latter is something that shouldn't really be a point of contention, since Sanderson explicitly said it. (I know you haven't claimed that. Just clarifying my point. )
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  #25  
Old 04-17-2012, 11:44 PM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Well yeah. I don't know if he can break a circle of 13, but very much think he can. Just remember that Aes Sedai today are over all much weaker than in AOL. Also, they have never encountered one as strong as Rand is now. While 13 AOL AS, maybe even less, could probably easily shield Rand while half of them are sipping tea, 13 sisters today might very well have a much harder time at it. They knew this was a very likely possibility, which is why they had a whole extra 13 there as back-up.

As to the other debate, the way I see is that as long as Rand stays on the main path, the one the pattern is dropping breadcrumbs on, he can use the breadcrumbs to get what he needs, if you see what I'm saying. But he can still stray/be forced off that path where the pattern can't help him. And if he strays too far and gets lost, then the world is lost with him.

Also, I didn't say ta'veren was deus ex machina, but that there were some elements of it in the story.
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  #26  
Old 04-18-2012, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
Well yeah. I don't know if he can break a circle of 13, but very much think he can. Just remember that Aes Sedai today are over all much weaker than in AOL. Also, they have never encountered one as strong as Rand is now. While 13 AOL AS, maybe even less, could probably easily shield Rand while half of them are sipping tea, 13 sisters today might very well have a much harder time at it. They knew this was a very likely possibility, which is why they had a whole extra 13 there as back-up.
The last we heard, 13 weak Sisters could shield him without any strain. He's certainly stronger than he was, then, but that was the last we heard of it. I would agree they were probably being extra-cautious having a second set of 13 there, because they didn't know if they could or not. I'm just saying that we have no evidence that he can break a circle of 13, and we do have evidence that he can't.

The best evidence we have is that Logain is about as strong as Rand (see: Deathgate scene), and 13 sisters didn't even need to pay attention, to keep him in line.

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As to the other debate, the way I see is that as long as Rand stays on the main path, the one the pattern is dropping breadcrumbs on, he can use the breadcrumbs to get what he needs, if you see what I'm saying. But he can still stray/be forced off that path where the pattern can't help him. And if he strays too far and gets lost, then the world is lost with him.

Also, I didn't say ta'veren was deus ex machina, but that there were some elements of it in the story.
For the first part, he can certainly do things that he wants. The point that I gave up on was when he said that the Wheel wasn't in control of what's going on. That's why I dropped out of the discussion. I never said that everything was pre-set, and there was no free will. That was the strawman he's decided to argue.

The thing is this. The Wheel is not pro-good or pro-evil. It doesn't care. It is just weaving a Pattern. The choices that characters make effects how that Pattern forms, that's because that's all factored into the weaving. Some things, the Pattern needs to have happen.

For example, Mat tries to run from battles, but every time, another force comes up, until it isn't one he can avoid fighting. Because he needs to fight. How he fights is up to him. His tactics are his prerogative. But he had no choice about the fact of fighting.

The Wheel's weaving is inseparable from the actions of individuals. That's a bit off-track, but essentially what is being discussed there.

In any event, whether he can overwhelm a circle of 13 or not, that was not what he was talking about, in the White Tower. He was talking about the fact that he thought his ta'verenness would get him free.

We know this because, again, Sanderson has said it.
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  #27  
Old 04-18-2012, 12:08 AM
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Now, if only Rand would consent to let 13 Sisters he trusted shield him so he could try and break out. Then we'd have all the definitive proof we need.
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  #28  
Old 04-18-2012, 12:19 AM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Oh yeah, I ain't denying that. There is also Tuon, for example, who resisted the pattern, or Rand ta'veren-ness, I should say, by sheer force of will. And in instances like with Mat in Tear in book 3, he kept finding reasons to stay, but I think if he really buckled down and exerted all of his will, he could have chosen to ignore those reasons and left. Of course no telling what might have happened if he did, just saying I think it was possible.

So while the pattern can alter chance and give people hard pushes to do what it wants, it's incapable of altering chance by a complete 100% or bending one completely to its will because then that would complete control and it wouldn't need ta'veren. Which I believe is the same as what you are saying. lol.

Last edited by Edynol; 04-18-2012 at 12:25 AM.
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  #29  
Old 04-18-2012, 12:21 AM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
Oh yeah, I ain't denying that. There is also Tuon, for example, who resisted the pattern, or Rand ta'veren-ness, I should say, by sheer force of will. And in instances like with Mat in Tear in book 3, he kept finding reasons to stay, but I think if he really buckled down and exerted all of his will, he could have chosen to ignore those reasons and left. Of course no telling what might have happened if he did, just saying I think it was possible.

So while the pattern can alter chance and give people hard pushes to do what it wants, it's incapable of altering chance by a complete 100% or bending one completely to its will because then that would complete control and it would need ta'veren. Which I believe is the same as what you are saying. lol.
Yeah, I think we're on the same page here
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  #30  
Old 04-18-2012, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Male Wilders would have been drawn to the Black Tower for no other reason than to stay alive. Scouting parties from the Black Tower visited every town from Taraborn to Shienar. This hardly strains credulity.
But not a single one of the original recruits (apart from Taim) was a Wilder. Yet, of the 27 men who were there when Taim started testing, 4 managed to pass the test. The number that could have been expected to pass, based on likelyhood, was somewhere between one quarter and three quarters (one to three percent of the population, which in this case was 27).
So here Rand was skewing the odds by a factor of between 5 and 16, which does strain credulity a bit (a lot), if you leave out the ta'veren effect.

Yet they were there not because they had been simply drawn to Rand, but because Rand had knowingly and deliberately set up a training center there and had sent potential recruits there to learn. He was actually manipulating reality by using his ta'veren powers in order to kickstart the Asha'man.
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  #31  
Old 04-18-2012, 06:46 AM
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But not a single one of the original recruits (apart from Taim) was a Wilder. Yet, of the 27 men who were there when Taim started testing, 4 managed to pass the test. The number that could have been expected to pass, based on likelyhood, was somewhere between one quarter and three quarters (one to three percent of the population, which in this case was 27).
So here Rand was skewing the odds by a factor of between 5 and 16, which does strain credulity a bit (a lot), if you leave out the ta'veren effect.

Yet they were there not because they had been simply drawn to Rand, but because Rand had knowingly and deliberately set up a training center there and had sent potential recruits there to learn. He was actually manipulating reality by using his ta'veren powers in order to kickstart the Asha'man.
I think the point is, he can now apparently do so consciously post-DM.

I'm intending to start a thread about this later on in the week when I have access to my books, but for now bear this in mind:

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Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
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  #32  
Old 04-18-2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
I think the point is, he can now apparently do so consciously post-DM.
But he's done that already way back when:
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Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 22, Out of the Stone
The coin spun into the air off Mat's thumb, gleaming dully in the sun. At its peak, Mat snatched it back and slapped it down on the back of his other hand, then hesitated. "It's a bloody thing to be trusting to the toss of a coin, Rand."
Rand laid his palm on one of the symbols without looking. "This one," he said. "You chose this one."
Mat peeked at the coin and blinked. "You're right. How did you know?"
"It has to work for me sooner or later." None of them understood– he could see that – but it did not matter. Lifting his hand, he looked at what he and Mat had picked. The triangle pointed left. The sun had slid down from its apex. He had to do this right. A mistake, and they could lose time, not gain it. That had to be the worst outcome. It had to be.
Here he is already doing it consciously.

Quote:
I'm intending to start a thread about this later on in the week when I have access to my books, but for now bear this in mind:
Cute counter, that one. I suspect we'll really have to read and find out, to find out about this one.
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  #33  
Old 04-18-2012, 10:30 AM
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But he's done that already way back when:

Here he is already doing it consciously.


Cute counter, that one. I suspect we'll really have to read and find out, to find out about this one.
I didn't mean to be an ass, Gonzo - just that I've got some ideas that (hopefully) warrant their own thread rather than discussion in this one!

In any case, I'm not sure if that is an example of him using ta'veren power conciously to twist the pattern. It's using Mat's luck, which works in a different way. Post-TGS, Rand at least appears to be able to use the pattern in whatever way he likes. Mat's luck tends to favour him, but he doesn't consciously control it; if the dice in his head are related to his ta'veren powers, then they're a good example, but Mat certainly didn't intend for a wall to fall on him at the end of ACOS, or to be hung from the branches of Avendesora, both of which appear to be as the result of ta'veren effects. The idea that Rand is consciously using ta'veren power in the scene you posted seems to rely on the idea that subconsciously or through LTT-memories Rand knew which symbol he needed to use, for which there is little to no evidence. (you might also just be being facetious)

I'm personally not convinced Rand is actually consciously using the pattern/ta'veren effects, but he clearly thinks he is. That was the intent behind providing the quote that I did, but as I say, I have more ideas surrounding it. But that is its relevance to this discussion.
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wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
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  #34  
Old 04-18-2012, 10:46 AM
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In any case, I'm not sure if that is an example of him using ta'veren power conciously to twist the pattern. It's using Mat's luck, which works in a different way.
But he didn't only use Mat's luck. He also used his ta'veren power on himself, to make himself point out which one it was that Mat had picked: "Rand laid his palm on one of the symbols without looking."
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  #35  
Old 04-18-2012, 11:01 AM
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That's not so much as using ta'veren power on himself. At this point, he becoming familiar with how ta'veren works and in this instant, all he did was predict the outcome. He didn't actually make anything happen, he was just positively sure of what would happen.

Look at it this way, there is a guy with psychic powers who can predict the future. He knows lightening is going to strike you at 3:12. He come up to you at 3:11 and shouts, "Face my wrath!" and the lightening strikes you. He didn't actually do anything, but you sure as hell would think he did, wouldn't ya?
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:47 AM
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Look at it this way, there is a guy with psychic powers who can predict the future. He knows lightening is going to strike you at 3:12. He come up to you at 3:11 and shouts, "Face my wrath!" and the lightening strikes you. He didn't actually do anything, but you sure as hell would think he did, wouldn't ya?
True, but suppose that right after he says that, a rhinoceros stampedes all over me (and I survive, somehow) then I would still be justified to think that he somehow caused it, wouldn't I?

Rand isn't directing precisely what happens, or how it happens, but he can make sure that something does happen. Afterwards, all he needs to do is keep a pokerface (or have one again before anyone thinks of looking in his direction), and people will be convinced of his power.

So, in the Tower scene, Rand may not have known precisely how he was going to break free of the shield, if he had wanted to. But he did know that if he decided to break free, then something would happen to make that possible. Maybe a Stedding would drop from the sky, maybe the AS holding the shield would fall asleep, maybe ... whatever.

Edited to add:
I am not at all sure that this ability will be any good at all in dealing with the DO, which of course would be a fairly serious problem for Rand.
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Old 04-18-2012, 12:12 PM
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True, but suppose that right after he says that, a rhinoceros stampedes all over me (and I survive, somehow) then I would still be justified to think that he somehow caused it, wouldn't I?

Rand isn't directing precisely what happens, or how it happens, but he can make sure that something does happen. Afterwards, all he needs to do is keep a pokerface (or have one again before anyone thinks of looking in his direction), and people will be convinced of his power.

So, in the Tower scene, Rand may not have known precisely how he was going to break free of the shield, if he had wanted to. But he did know that if he decided to break free, then something would happen to make that possible. Maybe a Stedding would drop from the sky, maybe the AS holding the shield would fall asleep, maybe ... whatever.

Edited to add:
I am not at all sure that this ability will be any good at all in dealing with the DO, which of course would be a fairly serious problem for Rand.
Yeah. That's pretty much adding to what I said. lol. That's him either thinking he can control it, or knowing what is likely to happen. But either way, he's just convincing others he can actually control what is happening, when in actuality, he cannot. Will what he wants to happen happen? Sure. Most likely it will. But it would be the pattern making it happen, not him. It's like a partnership. He can influence the pattern by asking "please do this", and it does. But he cannot force it to do anything.
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:49 PM
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Yeah. That's pretty much adding to what I said. lol. That's him either thinking he can control it, or knowing what is likely to happen. But either way, he's just convincing others he can actually control what is happening, when in actuality, he cannot. Will what he wants to happen happen? Sure. Most likely it will. But it would be the pattern making it happen, not him. It's like a partnership. He can influence the pattern by asking "please do this", and it does. But he cannot force it to do anything.
Or at least, that is what he thinks is going on. It may just be the pattern allowing him to think that, so it can abandon him when necessary.
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Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
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  #39  
Old 04-18-2012, 03:00 PM
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Or at least, that is what he thinks is going on. It may just be the pattern allowing him to think that, so it can abandon him when necessary.
Again, pretty much the same as I said. Of course, if the pattern abandoned him, he would no longer be ta'veren, so it wouldn't matter. lol.
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Old 04-18-2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edynol View Post
Well yeah. I don't know if he can break a circle of 13, but very much think he can. Just remember that Aes Sedai today are over all much weaker than in AOL. Also, they have never encountered one as strong as Rand is now. While 13 AOL AS, maybe even less, could probably easily shield Rand while half of them are sipping tea, 13 sisters today might very well have a much harder time at it. They knew this was a very likely possibility, which is why they had a whole extra 13 there as back-up.
I disagree with the bolded part. All along the series the Forsaken have been calling the Aes Sedai half trained, not weak. I tried finding a qoute from RJ about the relative strength (I think I have seen one before) but couldn't find anything specific, though I did find a few about the knowledge and dexterity of channelling, sort of like the difference between men and women where men are stronger but women are more adept.
We also see relative strength when looking at Nynaeve and Moghedien. They were at the same strength before Nynaeve reached her full potential. Now Nynaeve is stronger and she is meeting channellers who are stronger than her (Talaan, Alivia, Sharina). The Forsaken were the strongest and most Talented channellers on the DO's crew in an age were channellers lived 700 years and there were a whole lot more people in each generation who could channel.

Quote:
a part of Terez interview when driving BS a year ago (17th of April 2011)
TEREZ
Yeah, I figured, like what you were saying earlier about how they were Chosen because their talents...

BRANDON SANDERSON
Yeah.

TEREZ
...obviously they're all within...

BRANDON SANDERSON
...yeah. They're all awesome. And so, you know, you couldn't be a Forsaken simply for being awesome in the Power. It's like you had to be awesome at the Power, and be awesome at other stuff.
See how you have to be awesome in the power to be one of the Forsaken? They are exceptionally strong and that gives us a hint that there were a whole bunch of weaker channellers in the AOL.
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