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  #21  
Old 01-10-2013, 03:26 AM
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Pff, that is your interpretation not mine.
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  #22  
Old 01-10-2013, 03:53 AM
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You can interpret it however you like, but by your logic, Demandred would be Roedran. And clearly that's not true, so it's best to take Peter's words in the proper context. As I said before, it wouldn't particularly surprise me if Cadsuane's "implied fate" was in the notes. But Peter didn't confirm it, no matter what you want to believe. I just had a long email conversation with Peter about Brandon's words concerning the alter ego, so I know what sort of logic Peter uses.
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  #23  
Old 01-10-2013, 04:26 AM
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You can interpret it however you like, but by your logic, Demandred would be Roedran. And clearly that's not true, so it's best to take Peter's words in the proper context. As I said before, it wouldn't particularly surprise me if Cadsuane's "implied fate" was in the notes. But Peter didn't confirm it, no matter what you want to believe. I just had a long email conversation with Peter about Brandon's words concerning the alter ego, so I know what sort of logic Peter uses.
He may not have confirmed it, but I have a hard time believing Sanderson came up with that himself. He could have left us with no words about Cadsuane at all, and no one would have questioned it, given how little we know. Given how little regard he has for the character, I think anything we get about her end is there because the notes indicated it needs to be there.
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  #24  
Old 01-10-2013, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
He may not have confirmed it, but I have a hard time believing Sanderson came up with that himself.
That's not what we're arguing about.
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  #25  
Old 01-10-2013, 06:17 AM
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Someone has to ask about Murandy.
It absolutely smells to me that Demandred WAS supposed to be there originally.
I have a funny feeling that this was one of the things that RJ had notes for. Suggesting a change on that front due to it being guessed so heavily.
Maybe it's just me but as much as I actually liked the Sharan introduction and parts, it just felt off to me in the overall picture.

I dunno, I just finished my fast read of the book and maybe I need to wait until after I do a slower re-read along with some heavy looks into Sharan clues in earlier books but this is my first impression.

For the life of me I can not figure out why the Murandians were never mentioned again.
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  #26  
Old 01-10-2013, 06:31 AM
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Eh, the only thing really going for Roedred was Brandon's blabbing about it. The one RJ quote we had suggesting it could be figured out was a paraphrased signing report and so short that it could have been sarcasm. Without the Brandon quotes, we wouldn't have had any real reason to believe that Demandred was posing as a named character. I don't think his presence in Shara was foreshadowed very well at all, but I don't doubt it's what RJ had planned.
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  #27  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:00 AM
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Some somewhat minor notes of interest in the Skokie, IL book signing Q&A.

Brandon stated that, as we knew before, RJ had the fates of the major characters worked out in the notes but that some had to be done by Brandon based on the current emotional moment of the story and what worked best.

A fan asked who Nakomi was from book 13. Of course, Brandon said RAFO but that there was a clue in AMoL. When I heard this I thought of when Aviendha asked Bair about Nakomi and Bair said it was an old name so I asked Brandon if that was the clue when I was at the signing table and got a RAFO as well. However, he did say that she was in the book for a reason. She was not, and he emphasized it well, not in the series just to be theorized about.

Other than those notes of interest, and they weren't huge, there really wasn't anything new said that we didnt know before.
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  #28  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:45 AM
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I wish they'd just say "sorry, Harriet doesn't want us to tell you who wrote what" instead of giving us Aes Sedai answers that lead people to believe Brandon's scenes were written by RJ.
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  #29  
Old 01-10-2013, 08:41 AM
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)Of course, Brandon said RAFO but that there was a clue in AMoL. When I heard this I thought of when Aviendha asked Bair about Nakomi and Bair said it was an old name so I asked Brandon if that was the clue when I was at the signing table and got a RAFO as well. However, he did say that she was in the book for a reason. She was not, and he emphasized it well, not in the series just to be theorized about.
He'd say that

We'll get it out of him in a few months, when he doesn't consider it a spoiler anymore. :P

There are three possible "clues", contradictory.

The straight mention is Bair pondering it's an old name. That goes in the direction of Rhuidean Jenn/a name she's heard in the Glass Columns and similar theories.

Then there's the possibility Nakomi is the old unamed Aiel at the end who tells Rand "yes, it's what you must do". That goes more in the "magical agent of the Creator" and the RW origin of her name as a mother-goddess directions, HoH, someone from old myth the Dreamwalkers remember etc. Stuff Aviendha has not be taught.

Finally, Moridin tells Rand he thinks Cyndane is still interested in revenge over Aviendha. That goes in the "Nakomi was Cyndane" direction.

I can't think of anything else, on first read.

#3 doesn't seem to have a purpose except to entertain idle speculation, since it was not revealed.

#2 seems best to fit Brandon's words. But looking back on the older Q&A and his "games" to mislead us, he's hard to trust anymore when he doesn't give straight answers.

Last edited by Dom; 01-10-2013 at 08:43 AM.
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  #30  
Old 01-10-2013, 08:58 AM
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Hero of the Horn is the most likely answer. But it seems pointless if we don't know who she was or what her motivation was (aside from general hero good intentions). Basically Verin is the only answer that will make me happy, but that's been the case since TOM came out. (Before, technically.)
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  #31  
Old 01-10-2013, 09:45 AM
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Hero of the Horn is the most likely answer. But it seems pointless if we don't know who she was or what her motivation was (aside from general hero good intentions). Basically Verin is the only answer that will make me happy, but that's been the case since TOM came out. (Before, technically.)
Verin is very appealing... but there's several problems with it, timeline wise and not the least that the innate knowledge of the Aiel's ways in the Waste Nakomi demonstrated is beyond what Verin knew of the Aiel and the Wise Ones. The WO didn't reveal to Verin Rhuidean's secrets, and she didn't get out of anyone else who knows about them either. It's another big problem, but the same exists for Cyndane, notably.

There's a way to make it work, but it's a bit loony (it makes Verin the human incarnation of the female half of the Creator, while Rand is the male half. Both facing the Shadow in their own way, both "tainted". Nakomi is how she chose to reappear after she died and regained knowledge of her true nature. It's loony but it does work in a loony kind of way. The big clue linking Nakomi and Verin is that she gave Egwene the dream ter'angreal, which is a straight parallel to the Nakomi myth. Her trip through the Portal Stones with Rand is another clue. It explains her instinctive fascination with the Wise Ones, since it's her HoH archetype. The Nakomi persona would have the same kind of powers and nature Rand has at the end of the story - but she couldn't user them to interfere. All she did was remind Aviendha and Rand it was all about a choice. This plays well on the Verin motifs in the series. I don't know... it's loony a bit. I posted the theory/interpretation in the "after the end" thread - you'll understand better what I have in mind after reading that. It does not touch on Verin at all - it's you who just gave me the idea, but just fit Verin into it as Nakomi, as the human incarnation she was during the series before taking her archetypal Nakomi appearance after Verin's death).

But it's a bit loony, I warn you.

Last edited by Dom; 01-10-2013 at 09:50 AM.
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  #32  
Old 01-10-2013, 10:12 AM
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Verin is very appealing... but there's several problems with it, timeline wise and not the least that the innate knowledge of the Aiel's ways in the Waste Nakomi demonstrated is beyond what Verin knew of the Aiel and the Wise Ones.
The implication is that her past life was Aiel. In other words, it's not just a random disguise. And Verin herself knew more about the Aiel from observation than most other wetlanders, by far.

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The WO didn't reveal to Verin Rhuidean's secrets, and she didn't get out of anyone else who knows about them either.
She didn't even imply knowledge about Rhuidean's secrets, at least not beyond what Urien told Verin way back in TGH. But even if she had such knowledge, it wouldn't be a problem unless she was still alive at the time of the Aviendha visit.

The timeline is a problem, but considering the recent timeline issues, perhaps not a decisive one.

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The big clue linking Nakomi and Verin is that she gave Egwene the dream ter'angreal, which is a straight parallel to the Nakomi myth.
Just because of the moon connection? Or something more specific?

I'll check out your other post now.
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  #33  
Old 01-10-2013, 11:33 AM
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Eh, the only thing really going for Roedred was Brandon's blabbing about it. The one RJ quote we had suggesting it could be figured out was a paraphrased signing report and so short that it could have been sarcasm. Without the Brandon quotes, we wouldn't have had any real reason to believe that Demandred was posing as a named character. I don't think his presence in Shara was foreshadowed very well at all, but I don't doubt it's what RJ had planned.
Oh I'm not suggesting that it wasn't what RJ had planned.
All I'm saying is that I think it was something RJ changed himself late in the series.

Simply...all I want is for someone to ask BS about the omission of Roedred and the Murandians during the Last Battle.
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  #34  
Old 01-10-2013, 11:43 AM
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The implication is that her past life was Aiel. In other words, it's not just a random disguise. And Verin herself knew more about the Aiel from observation than most other wetlanders, by far.
Another possibility is that in one of her "alternate lives" she saw during the PS trip through possibilities, she saw herself as Nakomi/an Aiel WO.


Quote:
it wouldn't be a problem unless she was still alive at the time of the Aviendha visit.
Yeah, I have no problem with Dead Verin as Nakomi/HoH, even less in scenarios that make her an avatar of the female half of the Creator, Rand's complement.

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Just because of the moon connection? Or something more specific?
Much more specific: Nakomi is the Moon Goddess who taught the shamans about the Dream and how to enter it, and gave men Dreamcatchers (a charm to protect sleeping people from nightmares).

She's a benevolent version of the moon goddesses that inspired the Lanfear character, the Moon Goddess as "Great Mother", something that Egwene more or less became as a subdued, real world version.
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  #35  
Old 01-10-2013, 12:02 PM
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Just so you know, I really hate the 'avatar of the Creator' theory. That's a good tidbit about Nokomis, though; I've only read the Wikipedia page so I'm probably missing a lot. I'm even more convinced it was Verin now.
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  #36  
Old 01-10-2013, 12:05 PM
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All I'm saying is that I think it was something RJ changed himself late in the series.
It's a red herring that was long in preparation.. Goes back to the mid-series or so.

It could be something he came up in reaction to Taimandred, that might have convinced him to play with us some more and give us another red herring to replace the Taim one. I always got the feeling he found his Taim red herring had worked too well and sooner than he expected, that only looking there we were missing his other clues.

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Simply...all I want is for someone to ask BS about the omission of Roedred and the Murandians during the Last Battle.
That was foreshadowed somewhere.. something about the Murandians being so self-centered on their own petty rivalries the LB would pass them by.

This was also foreshadowed by the Aiel War. Murandian soldiers and Lords participated (as several Murandians participated in TG... in the Band, as AS, as Asha'man) but the nation didn't pull itself together enough to participate as a Nation. They and Altara (now Seanchan) were the only ones not providing a commander to lead the Alliance of Nations.

That's an idea RJ long had in mind. It's also the nation he made Elaida and Padan Fain come from. RJ depicted the Murandians very negatively. Self-centered, scheming, decadent, obsessed by a race for power, unable to unite, poison as advisors, obessessed with the trappings of power and the easy life and not understanding true leadership, tyrants and manipulators... Fain is the ultimate exaggerated projection of the Murandian themes as Shadar Logoth, Elaida's whole story arc was another projection of the "Murandian national character": shortsighted schemer always dividing to rule, obsessed with gaining power and be seen wielding it, but incapable to lead.

A very good case could be made that Roedran's sudden cunning noted as "out of character" by a few rebel Sisters and Elayne was actually the result of schemes of Elaida - that it's her agents who advised Roedran to hire the Band, that's it's her who pulled her old strings in the Andoran Houses (we know she had those) and with Murandian Houses to try to stop the rebels at the border. The Andoran Houses were perhaps very significantly worried they were caught between the two Tower factions - and if Elaida's E&E had been murmuring in the ears, it's no wonder. She was convinced the rebels would be crushed like rotten watermelons. It's all the more believable that we know it's long been a goal of Elaida to unite Murandy. That he's been caught in one of her webs and has seen her opponents her agents had told him were nothing, that she would crush them and was the true Amyrlin only to see them win would also explain his attitude toward Egwene.

It's a good question for Maria: Were Elaida's schemes behind the "changes" mid-late series in Roedran?

Last edited by Dom; 01-10-2013 at 12:11 PM.
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  #37  
Old 01-10-2013, 12:15 PM
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Just so you know, I really hate the 'avatar of the Creator' theory.
I know

I don't like it so much, but whether I like it or not, I can't but see it sort of works as an interpretation.

It all goes back to the Dragon being an avatar of the Great Serpent. That I'm sure is right, the Dragon creature comes from the pre-Wheel Great Serpent cosmology.

It happens to fit all too well with the Jain myth, as you'll see in Campbell.
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  #38  
Old 01-10-2013, 12:28 PM
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Default Midnight release

Here is my footage from the midnight release Q&A. The audio is kinda spotty in some parts (sitting third row due to the first three being reserved for the first 50 people in line) and its on a crappy flip camera, but hope there is something you guys can use

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...eature=edit_ok
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  #39  
Old 01-10-2013, 12:29 PM
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I already started transcribing it. And I posted it on the resources board where I'm trying to keep track of all the interviews coming in. (Not doing so well at that, really.)
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:37 PM
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For Cadsuane, I think it's clear that there's no way Sanderson would have kept her alive unless the notes told him too. Sanderson may have written the majority of her epilogue scene, but it's clear from Rand's POV and such that RJ intended her involvment.

My guess is that the notes have her ending with AS approaching her for guidence now that the Amyrlin is dead, implying she should be Amyrlin. Rather than stating she is made Amyrlin - when series lets off, she isn't yet raised.
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