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  #21  
Old 04-19-2012, 02:09 PM
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What use is a large nuclear force if they are not stationed where they are required. The large force to save Malkier was late in arriving. The point is, when they know the Trollocs would be attacking near the blight boarder, why don't they have a large force of Greens and their warders readily available where the trollocs are sure to attack.
See the quote about a winter of heavy raiding being damn near unheard of since the Trolloc Wars. As proven above Greens and Warders are up there patrolling and giving intelligence to the BLs. Once again please tell me how pre-travelling with their low numbers they could possibly hope to defend the blight against every raid and pin point where the attacks would come?

As for Malkier it was a surprise attack/crime of opportunity set up by DFs from within. It only worked because the border forts were stripped due to trickery. You can not rightly hold that against the AS.
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  #22  
Old 04-19-2012, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by gholam View Post
What use is a large nuclear force if they are not stationed where they are required. The large force to save Malkier was late in arriving. The point is, when they know the Trollocs would be attacking near the blight boarder, why don't they have a large force of Greens and their warders readily available where the trollocs are sure to attack.
The blight border is something like 4000 miles long and there are probably 150-200 greens total...where along that border should they be stationed or do you recommend that they put 1 every 200 miles and just hope they can get to the incursion site?

Strategically, having them set back from the border at a fairly central location like Tar Valon makes good sense so that hopefully the armies hold them long enough at the Blight border for the AS task force to get there to repel a major invasion. As we saw with Malkier, this didnt happen but as I already noted, that's likely due to the Wheel requiring it not to work so Lan would be where he needed to be instead of ruling a Borderland Nation.
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  #23  
Old 04-19-2012, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by gholam View Post
What use is a large nuclear force if they are not stationed where they are required. The large force to save Malkier was late in arriving. The point is, when they know the Trollocs would be attacking near the blight boarder, why don't they have a large force of Greens and their warders readily available where the trollocs are sure to attack.
Don't forget that AS are actually seen as manipulating "witches" by the rest of the world. Even having two of them permanently stationed in any city would creates problems. Especially if the were stationed there in peacetime when they would have nothing to do but manipulate...

And the trolloc wars put paid to any sort of global alliance against the shadow. They've not been able to revive anything like the compact.
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  #24  
Old 04-19-2012, 07:20 PM
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People seem to think Aes Sedai are superhuman.

Let's take the case of the Yellows needing to set up hospitals...

At best, they can set these up in the major capitals/big cities, of which there are 16-17. Of those, three are outright hostile to Aes Sedai. Lets say they ignore the dangers in the other cities, and set up a hospital each in one of them.

There are roughly 80 yellows.

Given that each sister can only do so much Healing in a day before she becomes too exhausted to channel, you would need at least twenty sisters in each hospital to cater to the roughly 1000 or so patients they can expect to see each day.

But they just don't have those numbers. If they pick an choose a few places, they risk being accused of favoritism. If they put fewer sisters, those sisters will either have to pick and choose whom to Heal (hello riots!) or die from exhaustion.

What about when they had much larger numbers? Well, what about those times? Do we KNOW the Aes Sedai didn't have hospitals in the major cities of the Ten Nations? No. All we know is they were immensely influential then, and almost brought the world to a place where a second AoL could be contemplated.

Then they got hit with a three hundred year war, which only ended due to their work, but was so costly that their own Amyrlin had to die in the Battlefield (not before they routed the Trollocs, thankfully).

Before they can recover, they're hit with a string of False Dragons, which culminates in thousand year period of semi-recovery that is only to be broken by Ishamael meddling again.

So when you look at the AS of today, you need to realize the smaller numbers means they can do less. And it also means that the current state of affairs is hardly what existed for the whole 300 years!

Judging the entire 3000 history of the AS based on their admittedly poor handling of the current situation is completely ridiculous.
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  #25  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:08 PM
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I think you're right to think the Aes Sedai are selfish, but for the wrong reasons.

Remember: no one really knew what the madness was, because everyone present at the strike on SG was either dead or .. mad.

And by mad, I mean world altering, weapons of mass destruction mad.

There are hints of the Aes Sedai trying to help or contain the men (alluded to earlier, re: linking men while they slept, support for the Ogier who tried to shelter male channellers in the stedding...), but there's only so much they could do. Eventually those who might have helped were gone, and the thread has covered how Ishamael and the BA conspired over the millenia to undo all good and unravel all unity.

It's also worth noting that even in the Age of Legends it was not believed that madness could be healed. That means that someone like Nynaeve is not just once-a-generation; she's a once-an-age person.

Also worth noting: the ultimate solution to the madness was cleansing the taint, and that required a male channeller wielding A LOT of Saidin.

I think the AS selfishness is of a different kind, which I will post next.
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  #26  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:17 PM
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Regarding Aes Sedai selfishness, one significant subtext to the series has been the difference between the Aes Sedai in Randland as compared to the Aiel chanellers, the Windfinders, the Kin, and the Damane. Each of the other groups of channellers has functioned productively within a strong socio-political framework in which leadership was conveyed for reasons independent of channelling abilty.

It's worth observing that these other societies only work because of their isolation (Aiel and Sea Folk), obscurity (Kin) or subjugation (Seanchan Damane). But only the Aes Sedai dared to live openly in the broad culture, and to challenge the policies of the world's monarchs for the greater good of preparing for the Last Battle. And I think they deserve some credit for that.

But of course the Aes Sedai also set themselves up as separate from the culture in many ways, and I think the series intends us to see how this lack of real engagement in society has isolated and deformed them and caused them to devolve into pettiness and party strife. In this way they lost much of their talent and strength and became susceptible to the machinations of the Black Ajah at the worst possible moment. It's an important part of the story, so I don't think it functions as a Deux ex Machina.

Notice that in the Dragon's house, the female and male channellers have been brought back together, and with no real exceptions the result has been a very healthy union.

Furthermore, those who dislike Egwene seem not to realise the vital role that she is playing by breaking down these barriers and opening the doors for engagemnet in society, first by her open door policy to all channellers regardless of ability (the Kin), and then by her negotiations with the Aiel and Sea Folk to allow the three groups to learn from one anothers' strengths. And there is even a future lesson for her to learn from the Seanchan.

While the Aes Sedai have certainly been selfish and a failure in many ways and have deserved our eye-rolling, they have also [somewhat] held the world together for the last battle. And while the Tower has produced its Elaidas, it has also produced Moiraine, Siuane, Verin, Cadsuane, Silviana, etc...
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  #27  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:03 PM
Verin Mathwin Verin Mathwin is offline
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Rand didn't find the cure for madness, he just found a way to stop it. Nynaeve found the cure.

Just had a thought: Maybe the madness wasn't curable until the taint was removed. Yes male channelers are not always holding the source but in a sense they are still linked to it and therefore the taint as well.
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  #28  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
People seem to think Aes Sedai are superhuman.

Let's take the case of the Yellows needing to set up hospitals...

At best, they can set these up in the major capitals/big cities, of which there are 16-17. Of those, three are outright hostile to Aes Sedai. Lets say they ignore the dangers in the other cities, and set up a hospital each in one of them.

There are roughly 80 yellows.

Given that each sister can only do so much Healing in a day before she becomes too exhausted to channel, you would need at least twenty sisters in each hospital to cater to the roughly 1000 or so patients they can expect to see each day.
Okay, for starters, you are looking at it a bit too simplistically. First ask yourself why some of those groups dislike AS? They see them as selfish and only interested in manipulation of those in power for their own devices. Setting up free hospitals is the antithesis of that. It would literally be a "winning the hearts and minds" method by the WT to gain support for AS. They would be "Servants of All" in truth AND name. Also, those hospitals would serve as natural recruiting stations for AS so their numbers would likely be higher than they currently are. Right now, unless a girl travels all the way to Tar Valon on her own or an AS just happens to stop in her village, she's not going to become a Novice. If there were centers in every major city and maybe even occasional stops in smaller cities like Whitebridge and Baerlon, they'd get far more reach for recruiting. It wouldnt just be 80 Yellows at that point.

I doubt there would be riots from them not healing everyone. They would make it very clear that they only heal the most serious injuries/illnesses and people's normal respect of them and the OP would restrain them from such actions as they do now.

There is literally no negatives to such an idea.
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  #29  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
People seem to think Aes Sedai are superhuman.

Let's take the case of the Yellows needing to set up hospitals...

At best, they can set these up in the major capitals/big cities, of which there are 16-17. Of those, three are outright hostile to Aes Sedai. Lets say they ignore the dangers in the other cities, and set up a hospital each in one of them.

There are roughly 80 yellows.

Given that each sister can only do so much Healing in a day before she becomes too exhausted to channel, you would need at least twenty sisters in each hospital to cater to the roughly 1000 or so patients they can expect to see each day.

But they just don't have those numbers. If they pick an choose a few places, they risk being accused of favoritism. If they put fewer sisters, those sisters will either have to pick and choose whom to Heal (hello riots!) or die from exhaustion.

What about when they had much larger numbers? Well, what about those times? Do we KNOW the Aes Sedai didn't have hospitals in the major cities of the Ten Nations? No. All we know is they were immensely influential then, and almost brought the world to a place where a second AoL could be contemplated.

Then they got hit with a three hundred year war, which only ended due to their work, but was so costly that their own Amyrlin had to die in the Battlefield (not before they routed the Trollocs, thankfully).

Before they can recover, they're hit with a string of False Dragons, which culminates in thousand year period of semi-recovery that is only to be broken by Ishamael meddling again.

So when you look at the AS of today, you need to realize the smaller numbers means they can do less. And it also means that the current state of affairs is hardly what existed for the whole 300 years!

Judging the entire 3000 history of the AS based on their admittedly poor handling of the current situation is completely ridiculous.

Imagine what would we be doing if all the doctors of the world thought similarly and went and sat in high walled forts and asked us to travel for days to reach them for emergencies?

As for Ishamael meddling and false dragons, we only know of 3 or 4 false dragons in the entire 2000 year period, Amasalan, Stonebow, Davian, Darksbane (was he an FD?). It's amusing to see that people come up with lame excuses to defend Aes Sedai stupidity and selfishness.

As for Egwene, I took great care to not to mention Eggy. Because if the AS were to elect their amarlyn based on selfishness, then Egwene is truly their leader, with the biggest possible head taking up the entire top floor of the White tower and with some hanging out. I don't even want to start on Eggy.
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  #30  
Old 04-20-2012, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by gholam View Post
Imagine what would we be doing if all the doctors of the world thought similarly and went and sat in high walled forts and asked us to travel for days to reach them for emergencies?

As for Ishamael meddling and false dragons, we only know of 3 or 4 false dragons in the entire 2000 year period, Amasalan, Stonebow, Davian, Darksbane (was he an FD?). It's amusing to see that people come up with lame excuses to defend Aes Sedai stupidity and selfishness.

As for Egwene, I took great care to not to mention Eggy. Because if the AS were to elect their amarlyn based on selfishness, then Egwene is truly their leader, with the biggest possible head taking up the entire top floor of the White tower and with some hanging out. I don't even want to start on Eggy.
Then dont mention it...at least not here. We have a thread for that.
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  #31  
Old 04-20-2012, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by gholam View Post
Imagine what would we be doing if all the doctors of the world thought similarly and went and sat in high walled forts and asked us to travel for days to reach them for emergencies?

As for Ishamael meddling and false dragons, we only know of 3 or 4 false dragons in the entire 2000 year period, Amasalan, Stonebow, Davian, Darksbane (was he an FD?). It's amusing to see that people come up with lame excuses to defend Aes Sedai stupidity and selfishness.

As for Egwene, I took great care to not to mention Eggy. Because if the AS were to elect their amarlyn based on selfishness, then Egwene is truly their leader, with the biggest possible head taking up the entire top floor of the White tower and with some hanging out. I don't even want to start on Eggy.
Come on mate, at least try to pretend that you are approaching the topic rationally. As was mentioned earlier they travel the world healing and set their eyes and ears network to seek out and send aid to emergencies, outbreaks of disease etc. Not exactly ideal but a far cry from what you are claiming.

Secondly the WT as an institution has failed, no argument. But it is laughable to categorize an Elaida led, Ishy targeted, BA riddled, Forsaken infiltrated, Fain influenced, split WT as weak excuses. This is a fallen world RJ is describing and the WT is not exempt. There are great, terrible and average AS just like every other group in this world. To categorize them all as stupid and selfish is just ridiculous.

Posters have disputed each of your claims with evidence from the text. Instead of responding you just swing off onto another biased rant. As for Egwene she has flat out stated the WT needs to change and has done more to positively transition them with reforms in her short time as Amrylin than any other since the Trolloc Wars. She has drank a bit too much of the kool-aid for my liking but her motivations in evolving the culture and responsibility she feels in facing the shadow are made very clear.
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  #32  
Old 04-20-2012, 04:23 AM
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The white tower as an institution only failed in Hawkwind's time.

Previously there was no Children of the Light... nor was there an extreme distrust of Aes Sedai... in fact Hawkwind's empire in the beginning had many Aes Sedai in positions of real power and administration of his empire.

In fact aside from the taint *almost* every issue to do with channeling and the splinter channeling groups stems from Hawkwind's empire and the effects when it collapsed.

In fact its a personal theory of mine that the reason there are THREE ta'veren rather than just one (and only one caused the breaking as well)... was because the previous ta'veren messed up so much and pulled the pattern away from its intended course.

I just find it amusing that more issues/problems can be laid at the feet of Hawkwind than the breaking itself.
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  #33  
Old 04-20-2012, 04:39 AM
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Then dont mention it...at least not here. We have a thread for that.
I know. That's why I kept it to the barest essentials
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  #34  
Old 04-20-2012, 04:45 AM
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...
Posters have disputed each of your claims with evidence from the text. Instead of responding you just swing off onto another biased rant. As for Egwene she has flat out stated the WT needs to change and has done more to positively transition them with reforms in her short time as Amrylin than any other since the Trolloc Wars. She has drank a bit too much of the kool-aid for my liking but her motivations in evolving the culture and responsibility she feels in facing the shadow are made very clear.
I felt that the posters were actually telling me that the AS were selfish and stupid, but some of them have their own reasons, the bottom line is they are stupid and selfish. Or else Ishy, BA, and a million others won't be able to manipulate them.

Of course I am biased, but I am not born biased. My bias came from reading the story and realizing that the AS are Stupid and Selfish
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Old 04-20-2012, 04:48 AM
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In terms of yellows you don't have to go to TV, they use their network of eyes and ears to search out outbreaks of disease and the like and send sisters to go heal them. That is in addition to all the sisters out working in the world that do so during their travels. Hardly the most efficient method and they should be setting up hospitals but it isn't like you make out either.
Before Moiraine entered the Two Rivers, when was the last time that an AS came there?
How many eyes and ears did they have in that whole region before Rand made the area famous?

I would say that the answers to those questions are: "a very long time ago, probably centuries" and "none". Which then brings up the next question: how many more areas did they ignore to such an extend, and how good was their service really if it had such large holes in the coverage?
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:18 AM
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The excuse that the AS couldn't research and find anything new because of the wars and turmoil in the land is just an excuse. If we look at our world and history, the most cutting edge technology is always developed for the military and to win wars, be it Rayon or harnessing Nuclear power or communications or flying. They were a fall out of great wars among us mere mortals. by the same token, the great researchers of AS, the Browns should have discovered a million things in 3000 years of turmoil. All they do is they loose precious knowledge in those millennia. I think the AS is the only retrograde group in the WOT world.
As for Ishy and the black Ajah manipulation, it really really is sad that none of the AS stopped to reflect for a few minutes during the last 100 years or so whether they are going in the right direction to find a pattern of deceit among themselves. What use is their knowledge and wisdom if they can't detect the rot among themselves? And Cadusane has the gall to humiliate Rand at every turn.
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:18 AM
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Before Moiraine entered the Two Rivers, when was the last time that an AS came there?
How many eyes and ears did they have in that whole region before Rand made the area famous?

I would say that the answers to those questions are: "a very long time ago, probably centuries" and "none". Which then brings up the next question: how many more areas did they ignore to such an extend, and how good was their service really if it had such large holes in the coverage?
If I had to bet, I would guess that Eldrene was the last Aes Sedai in the Two Rivers...and that was probably the result of the Wheel purposely isolating the Shire, I mean Two Rivers from outside visitors.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:44 AM
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The excuse that the AS couldn't research and find anything new because of the wars and turmoil in the land is just an excuse. If we look at our world and history, the most cutting edge technology is always developed for the military and to win wars, be it Rayon or harnessing Nuclear power or communications or flying.
That is a bit simplistic in comparison. The Breaking of the World cannot be compared to World War I.

Continents changed, water sources were eliminated, entire groups of people were erased. The Breaking lasted 250-300 years...not 4. Knowlege was completely lost, alliances were shattered in attempt to survive.

While I like the idea that a core group of AS should have pinpointed finding the Dragon Reborn, they were a bit busy. Also, why would they trust male channelers? You can understand, I think, why they would fear the group of insanity-stricken men and not think, gee, we should look at each one in the hope that a prophecy we don't really understand, nor totally believe, might be true. Talk about looking for a needle in a haystack--more like looking for a live grenade in puddle of mud.
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Old 04-20-2012, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Before Moiraine entered the Two Rivers, when was the last time that an AS came there?
How many eyes and ears did they have in that whole region before Rand made the area famous?

I would say that the answers to those questions are: "a very long time ago, probably centuries" and "none". Which then brings up the next question: how many more areas did they ignore to such an extend, and how good was their service really if it had such large holes in the coverage?
Quite possibly the most isolated are in that part of the world and that is your example Gonz? Come on mate, you know that is the exception not the rule.
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Old 04-20-2012, 06:11 PM
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It is less isolated than the Aiel Waste, which has been ignored by AS for thousands of years. Yet people can get sick there too.
Of course, they've managed fairly well with their Wise Ones, thus making the AS mostly useless. But still, everyone did seem to agree that AS Healing was superior, so they could have done some good there. If they had chosen to.
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