art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > WHEEL OF TIME FORUMS > Theoryland Re-Read
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-05-2011, 07:25 AM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default Winter's Heart, noticed this morning

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH, 13, Wonderful News
“I have the most wonderful news, Cadsuane.” By the sound other, she was not all certain how wonderful it was. “I know you said I should keep Damer busy here in the Palace, but he insisted on looking at the sisters still in the Aiel camp. Mild-tempered as he is, he’s very insistent when he wants to be, and sure as the sun there’s nothing can’t be Healed. And, well, the fact of it is, he’s gone and Healed Irgain. Cadsuane, it’s as if she’d never been . . . ” She trailed off, unable to say the word. It hung in the air even so. Stilled.

“Wonderful news,” Cadsuane said flatly. It was. Every sister carried the fear somewhere deep inside that she might be cut off from the Power. And now a way to Heal what could not be Healed had been discovered. By a man. There would be tears and recriminations before this was done with. In any case, while every sister who heard would consider it a world-shaking discovery—in more ways than one; a man!—it was a storm in a teacup compared to Rand al’Thor. “I suppose she is offering herself up to be beaten like the others?”

“She won’t need to,” Verin said absently. She was frowning at an inkstain on her finger, but she seemed to be studying something beyond. “The Wise Ones apparently decided that Rand had punished Irgain and the other two sufficiently when he . . . did what he did. At the same time they were treating the others like worthless animals, they have been working to keep those three alive. I heard talk about finding Ronaille a husband.”

“Irgain knows all about the oaths the others swore.” Corele’s voice took on tones of amazement. “She started weeping for the loss of her Warders almost as soon as Damer finished with her, but she’s ready to swear, too. The thing of it is, Damer wants to try with Sashalle and Ronaille, too.” Surprisingly, she drew herself up almost defiantly. She had always been as arrogant as any other Yellow, but she had always known where she stood with Cadsuane. “I can’t see letting a sister remain in that condition if there’s a way out, Cadsuane. I want to let Damer try his hand with them.”
And of course, later in the book he succeeds with both Sashalle and Ronaille, too.

Now, very little has been made of these three other than that they've been healed, and we've generally assumed it was done just to show that Flinn could do it and that a woman healed by a man would go back to full strength. However, it occurred to me this morning that here we have three AS, apparently sworn to Rand, none of whom are bound by the Three Oaths, and no-one has realised. It would be terrible if one of them were black, or even if one of them merely decided their loyalties lay in a direction other than Rand (for example, Egwene and the Tower), and did something about it. They're barely mentioned again as far as I can tell from the encyclopedia, but I'm inclined to think that everything happens, for some reason...
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-05-2011, 07:29 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,864
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Siuan and Leane would know, just as soon as they heard about it. Now, if only people shared news, instead of merely trading gossip ...
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-05-2011, 08:04 AM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Siuan and Leane would know, just as soon as they heard about it. Now, if only people shared news, instead of merely trading gossip ...
The problem being that if Siuan and Leane wanted to call the other healed sisters' bluffs, they'd have to show their own hand. Which could cause all kinds of problems for Egwene and the Tower.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-05-2011, 08:34 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,864
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
The problem being that if Siuan and Leane wanted to call the other healed sisters' bluffs, they'd have to show their own hand. Which could cause all kinds of problems for Egwene and the Tower.
Fun, isn't it?

Of course, Egwene has a fairly good list of BA members, so she can send someone over to Rand to help him root out any untrustworthy AS from his entourage. Assuming, of course, that she thinks of doing that.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-05-2011, 01:39 PM
Weird Harold's Avatar
Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: "Lost Wages," NV USA
Posts: 5,008
Weird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
... it occurred to me this morning that here we have three AS, apparently sworn to Rand, none of whom are bound by the Three Oaths, and no-one has realised. It would be terrible if one of them were black, or even if one of them merely decided their loyalties lay in a direction other than Rand ...
Sashalle is taking charge in Cairhein over Samitsu. Other than that you are correct that all three are relegated to "spear-carrier" status.

None of the three are named as BA. But Irgain explicitly, and all of the captured TAS from Dumai's Wells, implicitly, were subjected to Verin's interrogation and Suggestion Weave which binds them to ensuring that the Dragon Reborn survives to stand at T'G.
__________________
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just figure out which questions they go to. )

I met you in a past life. You were wrong then, too.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-05-2011, 01:47 PM
Kimon's Avatar
Kimon Kimon is offline
Ancient
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Kimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
And of course, later in the book he succeeds with both Sashalle and Ronaille, too.

Now, very little has been made of these three other than that they've been healed, and we've generally assumed it was done just to show that Flinn could do it and that a woman healed by a man would go back to full strength. However, it occurred to me this morning that here we have three AS, apparently sworn to Rand, none of whom are bound by the Three Oaths, and no-one has realised. It would be terrible if one of them were black, or even if one of them merely decided their loyalties lay in a direction other than Rand (for example, Egwene and the Tower), and did something about it. They're barely mentioned again as far as I can tell from the encyclopedia, but I'm inclined to think that everything happens, for some reason...
Are you sure about that? Take a look again at Verin's reaction. Her response need not imply anything dire to the extent of any of the three being Black Ajah, but she certainly seems troubled by the news. Sashalle at the very least is in a position to cause trouble, and her letter back to Tar Valon was sent to Galina (assuming her to still be Ajah Head), and keep in mind, that Pevara noted that Tsutama made sure to not let her (or Javindhra) see the letter, or to share all its contents, but noted that Tsutama seemed to have not liked much that she had read...
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-05-2011, 01:54 PM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Sashalle is taking charge in Cairhein over Samitsu. Other than that you are correct that all three are relegated to "spear-carrier" status.
That right there is a worry, surely? If she's the head of the AS delegation in Cairhien yet able to lie and be disloyal to Rand... well, very worrying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
None of the three are named as BA. But Irgain explicitly, and all of the captured TAS from Dumai's Wells, implicitly, were subjected to Verin's interrogation and Suggestion Weave which binds them to ensuring that the Dragon Reborn survives to stand at T'G.
But, to be fair, it's not like we've actually seen Verin/Egwene's big list of the names; Verin still allowed Elza to run loose, as well. They will have to get the Dragon to TG, but they are uniquely placed in that unlike the other sworn sisters, they are not oath-bound. I think there must be some purpose to that.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-06-2011, 04:24 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,864
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Verin was still bound to the Shadow when she left Rand and Elza, so she couldn't do anything about it then.

And, just for fun: if one (or more) of the three is BA, then she has been freed from the Black Oaths now. Which may change things anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-06-2011, 05:45 AM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Verin was still bound to the Shadow when she left Rand and Elza, so she couldn't do anything about it then.
Verin would still have been bound to the Shadow when these three AS were healed, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
And, just for fun: if one (or more) of the three is BA, then she has been freed from the Black Oaths now. Which may change things anyway.
True, but I'm of the school of thought that says being released from oaths - any oaths - merely makes one more dangerous.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-06-2011, 05:54 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,864
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Verin would still have been bound to the Shadow when these three AS were healed, as well.
But she could still have included their names in her neat little book, couldn't she?


Quote:
True, but I'm of the school of thought that says being released from oaths - any oaths - merely makes one more dangerous.
Maybe whichever of them used to be Black has been spilling Shadow secrets for weeks now, but it all happened off screen, so that we have not (yet) seen anything of it.
Then again, maybe not.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-06-2011, 06:14 AM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
But she could still have included their names in her neat little book, couldn't she?
It's not like there's any particular evidence other than inaction that their names aren't in the notebook. There are a multitude of reasons why Egwene might not have contacted Rand about it, all of which are completely reasonable. For example, if you were in a dispute with someone about taking a course of action which you believed there was a reasonable chance might destroy the world, you might be inclined to think that a note saying "By the way, these three people who you trust are in fact untrustworthy Darkfriends" might not be very well received.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-06-2011, 06:49 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,864
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
It's not like there's any particular evidence other than inaction that their names aren't in the notebook. There are a multitude of reasons why Egwene might not have contacted Rand about it, all of which are completely reasonable. For example, if you were in a dispute with someone about taking a course of action which you believed there was a reasonable chance might destroy the world, you might be inclined to think that a note saying "By the way, these three people who you trust are in fact untrustworthy Darkfriends" might not be very well received.
On the other hand, if you think that that someone is about to make a big mistake which might result in the destruction of the world, and you know that is precisely what Darkfriends are aiming for, then you might (if you're not Egwene) reason that specifically DFs like that could possibly be influencing Rand in his determination. Furthermore, if you knew that Rand is not really sworn to the Shadow, then you might consider the possibility that he would be willing to remove known DFs from his councils, or at least to take into account their bias.

Letting a petty snit get in the way of informing a supposed friend about a serious threat to his life (and the existence of the entire universe) is a bit low. I do admit that it seems something Egwene would do.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-06-2011, 10:58 AM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
On the other hand, if you think that that someone is about to make a big mistake which might result in the destruction of the world, and you know that is precisely what Darkfriends are aiming for, then you might (if you're not Egwene) reason that specifically DFs like that could possibly be influencing Rand in his determination. Furthermore, if you knew that Rand is not really sworn to the Shadow, then you might consider the possibility that he would be willing to remove known DFs from his councils, or at least to take into account their bias.

Letting a petty snit get in the way of informing a supposed friend about a serious threat to his life (and the existence of the entire universe) is a bit low. I do admit that it seems something Egwene would do.
You love Egwene. Admit it.

There is also the possibility that she simply might not know. Verin's list was not entirely comprehensive, as I believe Verin herself admitted.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-07-2011, 03:32 AM
skaywalker's Avatar
skaywalker skaywalker is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 86
skaywalker is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
There is also the possibility that she simply might not know. Verin's list was not entirely comprehensive, as I believe Verin herself admitted.

Well there's that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gathering Storm
Chapter 39: A Visit From Verin Sedai
Each name was like a thorn through Egwene's skin. Dagdara Finchey, who had healed Egwene once when she'd stumbled and twisted her ankle. Zanica, who had taught Egwene lessons and had seemed so pleasant. Larissa Lyndel. Miyasi, for whom Egwene had cracked nuts. Nesita. Nacelle Kayama. Nalaene Forrell, who—like Elza—was bound to Rand. Birlen Pena. Melvara. Chai Rugan. . . .
So she knew for at least two black members with Rand but didn't bother telling him.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-07-2011, 05:02 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,864
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by skaywalker View Post
So she knew for at least two black members with Rand but didn't bother telling him.
This dedication to the well being of her friend, I have to say, is one of the qualities that affects precisely how much I love Egwene.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-07-2011, 09:29 AM
WinespringBrother's Avatar
WinespringBrother WinespringBrother is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,889
WinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to WinespringBrother
Default

FWIW: (I'm not going to bother multiquoting my responses, but it will be apparent what they are pertaining to)

Elza was already dead by the time Egwene learned of her dark allegiance.

Egwene had no idea where Rand was or how to contact him. Also, she has legitimate reasons for not revealing this information about who is in the Black Ajah, since its source was confidential and it is an internal White Tower issue.

The whole removing oaths through either reswearing or being stilled cat is out of the bag, due to Egwene's scheme to have everyone reswear their oaths.

Besides, Siuan and Leane have retaken their oaths.
__________________
Mera'Daghain M'hael

"Oh, y'all [Theorylanders] are awesome with awesome sauce, but you ask a lot of tricky questions. I had to watch myself with you guys." - Maria

"I need to RAFO more things, I'm not being very Robert Jordan..." - Brandon
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-07-2011, 10:00 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,864
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Did Egwene know that Elza was dead?
Did Egwene know that Nalaene Forrell was dead?

Has Egwene tried to set up some way of contacting Rand if that were to become necessary?
Say, for instance, if she, the Watcher of the Seals, discovered actual evidence that the DO was actually breaking free, then it might potentially be useful if she, the Watcher of the Seals, informed the Dragon Reborn, who is supposed to respond to that kind of thing, that there's a problem.

An "internal White Tower issue". I wonder whether Rand would have agreed with that assessment if he'd ended up killing Min as a result of that internal White Tower issue.

And, as for not knowing where Rand was or how to contact him: she could, in theory, theoretically speaking, perhaps, maybe, possibly, have known where he was when he strolled into the White Tower and had his audience with her.
If you want to claim that she could not have passed on this information, then I would want some actual textual evidence showing that she never met him, in defiance of what chapter 3 (The Amyrlin's Anger) of ToM suggests happened.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-07-2011, 10:53 AM
WinespringBrother's Avatar
WinespringBrother WinespringBrother is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,889
WinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to WinespringBrother
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Did Egwene know that Elza was dead?
Did Egwene know that Nalaene Forrell was dead?

Has Egwene tried to set up some way of contacting Rand if that were to become necessary?
Say, for instance, if she, the Watcher of the Seals, discovered actual evidence that the DO was actually breaking free, then it might potentially be useful if she, the Watcher of the Seals, informed the Dragon Reborn, who is supposed to respond to that kind of thing, that there's a problem.

An "internal White Tower issue". I wonder whether Rand would have agreed with that assessment if he'd ended up killing Min as a result of that internal White Tower issue.

And, as for not knowing where Rand was or how to contact him: she could, in theory, theoretically speaking, perhaps, maybe, possibly, have known where he was when he strolled into the White Tower and had his audience with her.
If you want to claim that she could not have passed on this information, then I would want some actual textual evidence showing that she never met him, in defiance of what chapter 3 (The Amyrlin's Anger) of ToM suggests happened.
1. No, but it is a moot point. Elza was dealt with.
2. No, but it is apparently a moot point since Nalaene is not in Rand's presence (she is presumably in the Aiel camp being pampered and mollycoddled by the Wise Ones).
3. Not sure what this has to do with my post, but anyway, no, but it is a moot point, since Rand pretty much told Egwene that when they communicate it will be on his terms. He can be mule-headed in that regard sometimes.

As for my tongue-in-cheek assessment of White Tower politics, I think Rand would have had other problems besides Min's death to fret about if he hadn't escaped Semirhage at that time. Again, a moot point since Egwene did not know at the time that Elza's attack was taking place that Elza was Black Ajah since a) she was still a novice under Elaida's thumb and b) Verin had not outed Elza yet. And another reason I forgot was that it is possible that if Egwene tipped off Rand somehow, lets say after she got Verin's notes(Rand was MIA, don't forget), that she may have botched the capture and execution of those that didn't get away, making a bad situation worse.

As for her passing that information to Rand during their audience, perhaps she didn't due to ta'veren influence, or Rand was double-parked and left abruptly before she could mention it, or any of a number of reasons that don't leave Egwene guilty of whatever you are implying by your somewhat sarcastic tone.

As for your last sentence, I'm not sure what evidence you want (I don't recall what you are saying that chapter 3 suggests happened, can you provide a quote?) I don't have a quote that says she could not have passed on this information, but there are reasons to suggest why she didn't, including limiting the length of an already behemoth book. Because talking about the Black Ajah (which IIRC Rand has never gotten involved in hunting or dealing with) would lead to other plots not appearing in this book.
__________________
Mera'Daghain M'hael

"Oh, y'all [Theorylanders] are awesome with awesome sauce, but you ask a lot of tricky questions. I had to watch myself with you guys." - Maria

"I need to RAFO more things, I'm not being very Robert Jordan..." - Brandon
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-07-2011, 11:28 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,864
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

As far as I know, Egwene does not know that Elza is dead. As far as I know, Egwene does not know precisely which AS are or aren't in a position to get close enough to Rand to balefire him at the wrong moment.

Rand did start to leave fairly abrubtly, and then Egwene called him back to natter about the Seals. She could have taken the opportunity to warn him about danger, instead, and leave the actual job of fighting the DO up to the one single person who is capable of handling that job.

As for the evidence, I was trying to point out that you can not possibly have such evidence. We know that Egwene and Rand communicated after Egwene got that list. We know that Egwene did not bother to pass on the information, for whatever reason she might have had to keep it secret.

Rand had gotten involved in dealing with the BA when Liandrin attacked him in TGH. Rand had gotten involved in dealing with the BA when they dug up the E've that was later used by Semirhage. Rand had gotten involved with the BA when Galina became head of his kidnappers. Rand had gotten involved with the BA when Elza helped Semirhage.

And, of course, it would be exceedingly stupid if Egwene actually believes that the BA would ignore the DR because she does not tell him about them.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-07-2011, 12:46 PM
WinespringBrother's Avatar
WinespringBrother WinespringBrother is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,889
WinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to WinespringBrother
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
As far as I know, Egwene does not know that Elza is dead. As far as I know, Egwene does not know precisely which AS are or aren't in a position to get close enough to Rand to balefire him at the wrong moment.

Rand did start to leave fairly abrubtly, and then Egwene called him back to natter about the Seals. She could have taken the opportunity to warn him about danger, instead, and leave the actual job of fighting the DO up to the one single person who is capable of handling that job.

As for the evidence, I was trying to point out that you can not possibly have such evidence. We know that Egwene and Rand communicated after Egwene got that list. We know that Egwene did not bother to pass on the information, for whatever reason she might have had to keep it secret.

Rand had gotten involved in dealing with the BA when Liandrin attacked him in TGH. Rand had gotten involved in dealing with the BA when they dug up the E've that was later used by Semirhage. Rand had gotten involved with the BA when Galina became head of his kidnappers. Rand had gotten involved with the BA when Elza helped Semirhage.

And, of course, it would be exceedingly stupid if Egwene actually believes that the BA would ignore the DR because she does not tell him about them.

1. Rand has already been warned to trust no Aes Sedai, and he doesn't. Egwene knows that he doesn't trust Aes Sedai. It may be belaboring the point for her to tell Rand not to trust certain Aes Sedai who are Black Ajah and running around god knows where, not to mention that there are probably a few that Egwene doesn't know about. At this point, it isn't a game-changer, since Rand is focussed on his plans, and according to all the foretellings and prophecies that Rand knows about, he will make it to Shayol Ghul and die with Alivia's assistance at some point. I think it would be nice for Egwene to warn Rand, but what would Rand's response be anyway? Not to mention, it kind of ties in with the ongoing themes of lack of communication between the protagonists.

2. I thought Rand was the one person capable of fighting the DO. Are you referring to 2 different people in the 2nd sentence ("him" and "single person who is capable of handling that job) or is it just a run-on sentence.

3. I am still not sure what evidence (or evidence of what argument I am making) you are referring to that I cannot possibly have. Please elaborate.

4. I am not sure what Liandrin, Galina and Elza have to do with this discussion since they are ancient history for all intents and purposes. And Rand certainly needs no warnings about Liandrin and Galina, he already knows how dangerous they are.

5. I am not sure what is the point of you saying the last sentence, since I would not and have never taken the stance that Egwene believes that. Unless you are trying to drum up some Egwene bashing, to which I say BA!

So, to sum things up, Egwene didn't fully disclose her knowledge of active agents of the Black Ajah (nor her suspicions of Mesaana but you didn't mention that) to Rand and this may end up coming back to haunt Rand. That is definitely possible, I won't debate that. But then again, Verin could have suicided and given the info to Rand directly, so bad on her also, no? (though I guess it's possible that there was some interesting tidbits in the note Rand got from Tiana)
__________________
Mera'Daghain M'hael

"Oh, y'all [Theorylanders] are awesome with awesome sauce, but you ask a lot of tricky questions. I had to watch myself with you guys." - Maria

"I need to RAFO more things, I'm not being very Robert Jordan..." - Brandon
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.