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  #21  
Old 03-11-2017, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Not in America.
Then Americans are oppressed.
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  #22  
Old 03-11-2017, 04:43 PM
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The fact that something is illegal? Oh quite a few times. Naturally there are those it wouldn't stop just like people still get murdered in spite of all the laws against it. But there is a difference in a law that is inefficiently enforced and there not being a law at all. The first just requires some fine tuning while the other demands definite change before you can even get to the fine tuning.
That only matters if you don't have any money. If you got lots and lots of money don't matter how finely you tune the laws they'll be ignored if someone can make enough money off of it.

As the line in the song goes "everything's legal as long as you can convince the DA not to prosecute"...or something like that.
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  #23  
Old 03-11-2017, 05:22 PM
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That only matters if you don't have any money. If you got lots and lots of money don't matter how finely you tune the laws they'll be ignored if someone can make enough money off of it.

As the line in the song goes "everything's legal as long as you can convince the DA not to prosecute"...or something like that.
Whereas if something is not illegal no-one will worry about how much it'll cost to pay the lawyers and if it's worth the risk of getting caught. Illegal activities carry the risk of punishment even if that punishment hits the wallet.

You can be as cynical as you want about this, but the plain fact is that you said that existance of a law wouldn't stop anyone from committing a crime. It's deplorable how many people it won't stop, but it does stop some so your statement is fundamentally false.
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  #24  
Old 03-12-2017, 06:24 AM
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Whereas if something is not illegal no-one will worry about how much it'll cost to pay the lawyers and if it's worth the risk of getting caught.
Which is why the police never ever harass any innocent people at all. Why no one ever gets locked up only to be released a few days later with no charge and no ability to sue for wrongful arrest. Why, if you do get prosecuted for something that is not actually illegal, you don't need to bother hiring a lawyer, since the judge will throw out the case automatically and make the cops pay you for your lost time.

Or maybe you're just a tad idealistic.
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  #25  
Old 03-12-2017, 07:10 AM
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Which is why the police never ever harass any innocent people at all. Why no one ever gets locked up only to be released a few days later with no charge and no ability to sue for wrongful arrest. Why, if you do get prosecuted for something that is not actually illegal, you don't need to bother hiring a lawyer, since the judge will throw out the case automatically and make the cops pay you for your lost time.

Or maybe you're just a tad idealistic.
Awww the cynic is so afraid of being naive he doesn't realise that he is still judging everything by the same metric even if it is the other way around. The flaw of the naive isn't in expecting the best but in expecting simple. Being a cynic is more pathetic than being naive since the latter has the excuse of inexperience. Cynics have gained the experience but failed to learn the lesson.

You for instance have learned about the flaws in the legal system and fool that you are advocate having no system whatsoever. You can't have perfect and in your disapointment refuse to try at all. The adult thing to do is to try for 90% of perfect. Or more. Or less. Depends on where you are at the moment and what improvement can be achieved.
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  #26  
Old 03-12-2017, 08:10 AM
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Oh, I admit that having a system is almost always better than not having a system. I merely wanted to point out that your implicit assumption of perfection was not warranted.
People often do have good and solid reason to worry about being found doing things that are entirely legal. Denying that (as you did) is both naive and cynical (towards the victims of unwarranted harassment). Or maybe only cynical, if you did know that innocent people get ground up in the process now and then.
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  #27  
Old 03-12-2017, 08:46 AM
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Oh, I admit that having a system is almost always better than not having a system. I merely wanted to point out that your implicit assumption of perfection was not warranted.
People often do have good and solid reason to worry about being found doing things that are entirely legal. Denying that (as you did) is both naive and cynical (towards the victims of unwarranted harassment). Or maybe only cynical, if you did know that innocent people get ground up in the process now and then.
Now I never said things like wrongful convictions don't happen. The point I've been making from the start is that if a person knows something is illegal they are likely to at least pause before the act. If they are convinced that something is not illegal their personal morals might still get in the way but they nevertheless don't expect to be arrested for it. It's not that the innocent have nothing to fear because they do. It's about how the lable "illegal" in itself makes people cautious and the lable "legal" gets them to relax. A phenomenon SBX sought to deny.

And I am neither naive nor cynical. I don't make assumptions based on what would or wouldn't be nice.
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  #28  
Old 03-12-2017, 11:34 AM
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Deny? Nah. Playing up cynicism to a make a point? More likely. Being equal before the law? That's a little different. A black person with a gun is different than a white person with a gun. Law looks at them different.

Similar with these sorts of laws. It's information and data. If there are laws that say "bad corporation" they'd take their chances that either their not found put or that the penalty/fines/prison time will hit other people or will be less than the profits they make off of selling it.
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  #29  
Old 03-12-2017, 11:38 AM
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Gonzo, this is somewhat off-topic, but what exactly is going on with the odd tension between the Dutch government and Turkey? Is this largely due to anxiety surrounding Wilders and the upcoming Dutch election?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39248646

Because from a distance, this seems like it would benefit both Erdogan (with his dictator referendum also upcoming, not to mention helping him fuel his anti-European and Turk nationalist agenda) and Wilders, and is a vast over-reaction by the Dutch authorities.
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  #30  
Old 03-12-2017, 11:55 AM
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The Turkish government is breaking its own laws (using weasel words to hide that), and the Dutch government doesn't want to get involved in that this time. However, because the Turks wanted to break their law in the Netherlands, the Dutch government couldn't avoid involvement. Either they would do nothing, which Wilders would then exploit in our upcoming elections, or they would annoy Turkey. Apparently, someone has decided that the latter course was the lesser evil.

The reason why I said this was breaking Turkish law is that Turkey has a law explicitly prohibiting politicians from campaigning outside Turkey. Turkey got around this by claiming that their politicians were merely providing information; I suspect that any Turkish politician talking about voting "no" would get a different reaction, though.

I don't think it is an overreaction this time; I think that Erdogan and Wilders together have arranged things so that a lesser reaction was not really possible.
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  #31  
Old 03-12-2017, 06:55 PM
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Deny? Nah. Playing up cynicism to a make a point? More likely. Being equal before the law? That's a little different. A black person with a gun is different than a white person with a gun. Law looks at them different.

Similar with these sorts of laws. It's information and data. If there are laws that say "bad corporation" they'd take their chances that either their not found put or that the penalty/fines/prison time will hit other people or will be less than the profits they make off of selling it.
But the point still remains that even with this unbalanced system the lable "illegal" has an effect.

I am not saying everyone acts the same way. I am not saying the system isn't unbalanced. This is about the choices people make before the act.

You say you were making a point, but "Since when has that ever stopped anyone?" is a flawed statement in practically any meaning you might put to it. There are those almost mythical law abiding individuals who nevertheless count as anyone and there are those for whom it is merely a matter of pros and cons just as any legal activity. But even for the latter being caught in a legal mess is something to avoid if only because of the expense, so legality does matter and sometimes even stops them. Not always and not everyone, but some people sometimes and that proves the cynic wrong.

You were demonstrating one of two mentalities. "Naive is wrong, cynic is right" or "it doesn't matter if I'm wrong so long as I'm cynical and not naive". Ironically both are naive as well as wrong.
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  #32  
Old 03-12-2017, 08:42 PM
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You were demonstrating one of two mentalities. "Naive is wrong, cynic is right" or "it doesn't matter if I'm wrong so long as I'm cynical and not naive". Ironically both are naive as well as wrong.
Or, as I said above, I was playing up the cynicism to make a point. Do I actually believe that everyone will disregard laws for self-interest? No, and the fact that I have to explain that confuses me.
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  #33  
Old 03-12-2017, 11:46 PM
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Or, as I said above, I was playing up the cynicism to make a point. Do I actually believe that everyone will disregard laws for self-interest? No, and the fact that I have to explain that confuses me.
Doesn't matter what you actually thought. The post you made was a failure. On multiple levels as the very point you claim as your excuse was completely lost. You would have done better to claim it was joke after my first reply.

And you do have to explain it because I don't assume I know you. That would be an insult. And I would take offense at you assuming that I know you well enough to not need an explanation so if you did I'd like an apology. If you assume this of everybody then you are taking people for granted and should seriously take a look at your own relationships and consider if they perhaps deserve better from you.
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  #34  
Old 03-13-2017, 10:25 AM
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Doesn't matter what you actually thought. The post you made was a failure. On multiple levels as the very point you claim as your excuse was completely lost. You would have done better to claim it was joke after my first reply.

And you do have to explain it because I don't assume I know you. That would be an insult. And I would take offense at you assuming that I know you well enough to not need an explanation so if you did I'd like an apology. If you assume this of everybody then you are taking people for granted and should seriously take a look at your own relationships and consider if they perhaps deserve better from you.
Can we get back to actual, serious issues at hand, and leave the petty semantics alone.

This breach of personal privacy is absolutely mind-boggling. Companies being able to pry into health habits is one thing (and something I generally disagree with), but to pry into genetic code that cannot be modified or chosen is incredibly dangerous territory.

Gattaca-esque: We regret to inform you that are only worth working this menial job- because of your genetic propensity for hypertension. We don't want you getting too stressed out, you understand? It is for your own good really. Actually you're welcome.

In this whole "experiment", the most disturbing thing for me to see is how many people either embrace these discriminatory orders (some border guards) or just shrug their shoulders (some of the general public). I know there are just as many, if not more, people resisting it. But I am dismayed at how easy it is to begin to reverse so many hard fought protections that are crucial to a civilized society.
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  #35  
Old 03-13-2017, 01:51 PM
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Can we get back to actual, serious issues at hand, and leave the petty semantics alone.

This breach of personal privacy is absolutely mind-boggling. Companies being able to pry into health habits is one thing (and something I generally disagree with), but to pry into genetic code that cannot be modified or chosen is incredibly dangerous territory.

Gattaca-esque: We regret to inform you that are only worth working this menial job- because of your genetic propensity for hypertension. We don't want you getting too stressed out, you understand? It is for your own good really. Actually you're welcome.

In this whole "experiment", the most disturbing thing for me to see is how many people either embrace these discriminatory orders (some border guards) or just shrug their shoulders (some of the general public). I know there are just as many, if not more, people resisting it. But I am dismayed at how easy it is to begin to reverse so many hard fought protections that are crucial to a civilized society.
The scariest thing about such a move away from individual freedoms and privacy is just how easy it is to accomplish. Germany in the 1930s is a perfect example of how the average person will give up a ton of both in the name of "the greater good" or "safety and security" etc. It has been very depressing over the past 10-15 years to see just how willing Americans are to give up those same rights for much the same reason and with much the same rationale.

Trump and the current GOP are simply the result of the same gradual movement that basically started right around 9am Eastern on 11 September 2001.
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Old 03-13-2017, 02:21 PM
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Doesn't matter what you actually thought. The post you made was a failure. On multiple levels as the very point you claim as your excuse was completely lost. You would have done better to claim it was joke after my first reply.

And you do have to explain it because I don't assume I know you. That would be an insult. And I would take offense at you assuming that I know you well enough to not need an explanation so if you did I'd like an apology. If you assume this of everybody then you are taking people for granted and should seriously take a look at your own relationships and consider if they perhaps deserve better from you.
Thank you for your critique of my existence. I will now take a 6 month leave of absence and reassess all facets of my personal life and all relationships thereunto.

Thanks very kindly Naz. I see now that my existence before now is shallow and empty and I will dedicate all my efforts going forward to living a full, well-balanced life. I'll also eat all my vegetables regardless of how horrible they taste.
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  #37  
Old 03-13-2017, 02:30 PM
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Trump and the current GOP are simply the result of the same gradual movement that basically started right around 9am Eastern on 11 September 2001.
I had a chat with Seal about this a month or so ago. He's more in mind that it's about 50 years worth of American political history & strategy that's involved. Certainly events of September 2001 had a good deal to do with it, but in the end it was just another tool used to further the agenda that, by that point, was already 30-35 years old.

In this issue in particular, well, I certainly don't remember anyone campaigning on it. I've seen opinions elsewhere that it's an attempt to sell nigh-useless DNA test. The science behind it is fairly young and these no guarantee that it will acurately be able to diagnose or predict the illnesses or diseases. If you can make it so that companies can avoid hiring people on supposed DNA markers, then you can use that excuse instead of sexual preference, gender preference, skin colour, etc, then that could be worth alot of money.
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Old 03-13-2017, 03:56 PM
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Thank you for your critique of my existence. I will now take a 6 month leave of absence and reassess all facets of my personal life and all relationships thereunto.

Thanks very kindly Naz. I see now that my existence before now is shallow and empty and I will dedicate all my efforts going forward to living a full, well-balanced life. I'll also eat all my vegetables regardless of how horrible they taste.
You forgot the apology smartass. Sheesh you can't even do sarcasm right.
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Old 03-13-2017, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
You forgot the apology smartass. Sheesh you can't even do sarcasm right.
I'll get around to it in six months when I'm back from my leave of absence. I'm not checking the boards until then.
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Old 03-13-2017, 06:56 PM
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Nazbaque Nazbaque is offline
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Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX View Post
I'll get around to it in six months when I'm back from my leave of absence. I'm not checking the boards until then.
What's the point if you aren't studying under a true master? If you could learn by yourself you wouldn't make these mistakes.
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