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  #21  
Old 09-14-2012, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by finnssss View Post
It should be noted that the effect is resistible as mentioned by RJ during the KoD tour.




Whether it's her ties/vows to the DO that make her immune, that she has a natural resistance to compulsion like Nynaeve and Morgase or if holding the power does it, we don't know for sure BUT since we know that someone holding the power is immune to compulsion, that would seem the most logical answer imo.
Rand also has the "indomitable will" perk, so if Ny or Morg were able to resist the CT, he would doubtless be able to.
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  #22  
Old 09-14-2012, 01:05 PM
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Whether it's her ties/vows to the DO that make her immune, that she has a natural resistance to compulsion like Nynaeve and Morgase or if holding the power does it, we don't know for sure BUT since we know that someone holding the power is immune to compulsion, that would seem the most logical answer imo.
This raises a very interesting possibility that has probably occurred to others but not me before. We know that ter'angreal can produce specific weaves of the OP (such as the rod that produces BF that BA stole). The effect of the Crystal Throne seems very similar to the minor Compulsion that Verin used on the White Tower faction Aes Sedai to get them to swear allegiance to Rand. What if the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal designed to inflict weaves of Compulsion on those around it?

As for the differences in the Seanchan vs. Westlands KC, I think the obvious answer is tampering is responsible for the differences. Whether it was Ishy or a Counsel of Nicea type event after the Consolidation began is up for debate. There isn't any evidence either way though I tend to lean toward Ishy. Its just a little too convenient to me that have the Empire that Ishy spawned have a version of the KC so diametrically opposed to the Westland version and it being one of the major bones of contention standing in the way of an alliance between Rand and the Seanchan.
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  #23  
Old 09-14-2012, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Sinistrum View Post
This raises a very interesting possibility that has probably occurred to others but not me before. We know that ter'angreal can produce specific weaves of the OP (such as the rod that produces BF that BA stole). The effect of the Crystal Throne seems very similar to the minor Compulsion that Verin used on the White Tower faction Aes Sedai to get them to swear allegiance to Rand. What if the Crystal Throne is a ter'angreal designed to inflict weaves of Compulsion on those around it?
The BWB says "causes awe" rather than compulsion. It is certainly similar to the Glamourie style compulsion Moghedien used on the Supergirls, where a simple "desire to please" was the main effect.

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Originally Posted by Sinistrum View Post
As for the differences in the Seanchan vs. Westlands KC, I think the obvious answer is tampering is responsible for the differences. Whether it was Ishy or a Counsel of Nicea type event after the Consolidation began is up for debate. There isn't any evidence either way though I tend to lean toward Ishy.
There is Ishamael's boast of "a doom yet to come" which fits with the theory that he tampered with Luthair's copy of the KC (and later influenced the adoption of Luthoair's version as the true version.) Most people associate the "Doom Yet To Come" with the Seanchan invasion in general, but the timing is right for a more specific meaning as well.
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  #24  
Old 09-15-2012, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
The BWB says "causes awe" rather than compulsion. It is certainly similar to the Glamourie style compulsion Moghedien used on the Supergirls, where a simple "desire to please" was the main effect.
The BWB is supposedly sort of written by a Randland AS or something (someone) like that, or a committee of such. The author then would have gotten her information second or third hand from people who probably couldn't channel themselves, which makes detecting compulsion rather haphazard.
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  #25  
Old 09-15-2012, 06:00 AM
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The BWB is supposedly sort of written ...
Which is why I added the next sentence after, "the BWB says..."

in case you missed it: "It is certainly similar to the Glamourie style compulsion..."
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  #26  
Old 09-15-2012, 10:35 PM
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It would be nice if we really had the actual text in question. The people who think Rand will kneel before the Crystal Throne, either because the Prophecy is valid or because it won't make a difference...how?

This is why I would like an actual excerpt. Because the Crystal Throne itself is probably in Seandar, in the middle of a civil war that probably makes everything Randland has seen so far look relatively small in comparison. And that's if the Throne wasn't moved by any of the factions for any of a thousand reasons. I suppose now that Fortuona has Traveling, she could send a force to Seanchan and take it, but there are still many questions. That would make too much sense, the Throne might not be there, it's the epicenter of chaos...
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  #27  
Old 09-15-2012, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
...the Crystal Throne itself is probably in Seandar, in the middle of a civil war ...
Worse, the Crystal Throne is probably the focus of that Civil War; Whoever holds the Crystal Throne rules Seanchan.

I imagine any time any one faction looks like it might claim the Throne, all of the other factions make a temporary truce to work against the front-runner.
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  #28  
Old 09-16-2012, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Worse, the Crystal Throne is probably the focus of that Civil War; Whoever holds the Crystal Throne rules Seanchan.

I imagine any time any one faction looks like it might claim the Throne, all of the other factions make a temporary truce to work against the front-runner.
Exactly. While I think it's too much to hope for that the faction with the Throne rules Seanchan, it will inevitably be the epicenter of chaos.
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  #29  
Old 09-16-2012, 01:36 AM
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There is Ishamael's boast of "a doom yet to come" which fits with the theory that he tampered with Luthair's copy of the KC (and later influenced the adoption of Luthoair's version as the true version.) Most people associate the "Doom Yet To Come" with the Seanchan invasion in general, but the timing is right for a more specific meaning as well.
It would be the kind of move he would make. He always seems to calculate more than a few moves ahead in whatever game he plays. Also, it struck me as kind of odd that out of all the books that could have been taken along for the ride on that Voyage, the KC was one of the ones that was picked. Doesn't exactly strike me as light reading, or reading that is particularly socially acceptable outside of academia.

Quote:
The people who think Rand will kneel before the Crystal Throne, either because the Prophecy is valid or because it won't make a difference...how?
A better question is why? Yeah yeah he needs the Seanchan. But he's also got a fountain of hope coming out of his ass right now. He was extremely close to getting Tuon to cave while he was doing his Mordeth impress. It shouldn't be any harder than getting the Hall of the Tower to shut up and sit still. Additionally, Rand hasn't ever been the kneeling type, epiphany or no. He pretty much told Egwene to piss off and that he was doing things his way in the Hall. He was just a lot more respectful than that. On top of that, him kneeling to Tuon pretty much puts her in charge of the Last Battle. Can't see that going well. Can't see it going well with anyone but Rand in charge really. You don't abdicate the responsibility you were specifically born for at the last moment just to make another friend.
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Last edited by Sinistrum; 09-16-2012 at 01:40 AM.
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  #30  
Old 09-16-2012, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Sinistrum View Post
... Also, it struck me as kind of odd that out of all the books that could have been taken along for the ride on that Voyage, the KC was one of the ones that was picked. Doesn't exactly strike me as light reading, or reading that is particularly socially acceptable outside of academia.
ETA:
A thought occurs: Could Ishamael have convinced Luthair that Luthair was a "child of prophecy" and set him on a course guided by a tampered copy of the KC?

BG Miraj, in the passage quoted earlier, says that Westland copies are "greatly different," even though he only mentions one point of difference. What else might have been changed and how did those changes affect Luthair's decision-making?

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...On top of that, him kneeling to Tuon ...
Tuon makes it fairly clear that it isn't kneeling to the Empress (MSLF,) but kneeling before the Crystal Throne that is specified in Prophecy. I doubt that Rand would kneel before Fortuona anyway, but that wouldn't be the disaster people make it out to be.
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Last edited by Weird Harold; 09-16-2012 at 05:54 PM. Reason: Hamsters ate part of the original post?
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  #31  
Old 09-16-2012, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Tuon makes it fairly clear that it isn't kneeling to the Empress (MSLF,) but kneeling before the Crystal Throne that is specified in Prophecy. I doubt that Rand would kneel before Fortuona anyway, but that wouldn't be the disaster people make it out to be.
Guys I think we're looking at this the wrong way. It is not uncommon for the royalty themselves to be referred to as "the throne". Rand need not kneel to the actual Crystal Throne, but those who embody it.

Forget the Empress. There is a Seanchan Emperor now, married to the Empress who has the rightful claim to the throne. Who is about to visit with Rand, bearing a very special gift. Someone old, someone... Blue?

Rand may very well fall to his knees when that happens.

Last edited by neurotopia; 09-16-2012 at 02:15 PM.
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  #32  
Old 09-16-2012, 05:49 PM
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Guys I think we're looking at this the wrong way. It is not uncommon for the royalty themselves to be referred to as "the throne".
You might have a point if the CT wasn't a ter'angreal.
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  #33  
Old 09-16-2012, 08:27 PM
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Forget the Empress. There is a Seanchan Emperor now, married to the Empress who has the rightful claim to the throne.
There is no Emperor, nor has there been for about a thousand years. Just because Mat married her doesn't necessarily make him more than Prince. Have you ever heard of Prince Phillip?

And what WH said on T'A.

and @Sini:
Just because the why is 'more' important doesn't mean the 'how' is not worth discussing. Of course, only people who believe Rand will kneel need to be able to answer. Those who think he won't can simply ask it.
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  #34  
Old 09-17-2012, 05:12 AM
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I assume the Crystal Throne is a binding chair, and its effect is that the words of whoever is sitting on it become more imposing and binding to those before it.

See the Aiel clan chiefs' attitude to Rand sitting on chairs near them: they consider it incredibly offensive because they believe chairs should only be used when passing judgement. Seems like cultural memory.

That and 'binding chairs' being the only other magical chair we hear of - which I find unlikely to be a coincidence.
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  #35  
Old 09-17-2012, 05:30 AM
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We've seen a binding chair; the Black Ajah hunters in the White Tower used one on Talene Minly.

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Despite its name, the ter’angreal looked nothing like a chair, just a large rectangular block of marbled gray. No one knew what it was made of, but the material was hard as steel everywhere except the slanted top. The statuesque Green sank a little into that, and somehow it molded itself to her no matter how she twisted. Doesine’s weavings flowed into the only break anywhere in the Chair, a palm-sized rectangular hole in one side with tiny notches spaced unevenly around it. Criminals caught in Tar Valon were brought down here to experience the Chair of Remorse, to experience carefully selected consequences of their crimes. On release, they invariably fled the island. There was very little crime in Tar Valon. Queasily, Seaine wondered whether this was anything like the use the Chair had been put to in the Age of Legends.
Or at least, it seems to be closer to what Sammael was thinking of when he mentioned it—a way to deal with non-channeling criminals.
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  #36  
Old 09-17-2012, 08:47 AM
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Hmmm, I just had an interesting thought:

There is a lot of symbolism within the WoT books more-so with banners, sigils and thrones; much like there is on our own world.


Crystal, you think fragile, and shattering you do NOT want to name your throne after a material which breaks easily. You might as well say "the empress may she lives forever rules from a fragile seat liable to shatter into a thousand shards (factions).

Callandor is refered to as the "sword that isn't a sword" is also made of "crystal" or glass. Crystals are also clear see-through and this got me thinking about the way the old-tongue is often miss-interpreted or its original meaning lost.

The original text could have meant the Dragon will bow before *NO* throne; or there is no throne the dragon will bow before. A Warning within the dragon prophecies to rulers attempting to use him.

With the way it has mentioned repeatedly as how the old tongue is often miss-interpreted; Ishy could have easily skewed the prophecies in such a way that instead of it saying "no throne" it says "throne, that isn't a throne" which is translated as a see-through or glass throne... a crystal throne.

He was after all an award winning philosopher who wrote in the old tongue twisting meanings of the words should be no problem to him.
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Old 09-17-2012, 05:03 PM
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The original text could have meant the Dragon will bow before *NO* throne; or there is no throne the dragon will bow before. A Warning within the dragon prophecies to rulers attempting to use him.
One major problem with your idea is that the Crystal Throne is actually a throne/ter'angreal made of unbreakable crystal. Whatever the actual wording -- which have neither version of -- the interpretation leads to an actual throne.

Another major problem is that the common consensus is that the "original wording" doesn't mention anything that could be interpreted as "a crystal throne" or TDR showing any kind of submission to the Seanchan Empress. (MSLF)
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  #38  
Old 09-18-2012, 04:34 AM
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The thing is we only have "evidence" from people who cannot channel and I doubt they are very forthcoming about studying it. I have no doubt there is *something* there; but the entire thing could have been planned by Ishy when he was about using his dark-friend network

I was just going from the symbolism angle; which we know rulers like :P
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