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  #21  
Old 03-31-2012, 08:28 PM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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Perhaps it was necessary for Lanfear to die and be transmigrated into Cyndane in order for her to have the mindset we're dealing with? She probably wouldn't have fallen as easily into Moridin's hands if she'd never died and been transmigrated. You don't see Moridin with Demandred's cour'souvra
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  #22  
Old 03-31-2012, 09:12 PM
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Perhaps it was necessary for Lanfear to die and be transmigrated into Cyndane in order for her to have the mindset we're dealing with? She probably wouldn't have fallen as easily into Moridin's hands if she'd never died and been transmigrated. You don't see Moridin with Demandred's cour'souvra
But consider the alternative - A captured Lanfear could very well turn in captivity. The same choice she gave asmodean comes to her -you've been aiding the DR now you better toss in everything and hope for the best or else...

I think quite a few of the forsaken would have wanted to get their hands on her by that time. And how would she make them believe she was captured by a "primitive" like Moiraine.

Killing her might have been less satisfactory on the long run though the rings might not show Moiraine that. The DO would probably bring her back even if she's mindtrapped. But Moiraine would have remained by Rand's side and a lot might have happened differently.

1. Alanna's bond might never have happened (or Moiraine could have dealt with it - pass it to Elayne) and Rand's rabid distrust of AS might not have happened. That means ashaman and AS may have been working together long before now.

2. Dumai wells might have been avoided entirely. Again better relations with AS. And Rand could have supported the SAS to remove Elaida.
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  #23  
Old 03-31-2012, 10:48 PM
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You're assuming that those things didn't need to happen; that the changes to Rand's personality were not necessary, or that the changes to Lanfear's personality by going through life as Cyndane weren't what made it possible for Rand to win in the first place.

I think that's a completely unwarranted assumption.
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  #24  
Old 04-01-2012, 05:22 AM
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But consider the alternative - A captured Lanfear could very well turn in captivity.
Was a captured Lanfear a possibility at all?

So far, all you've presented in favor of that is the assertion that it may maybe not have been entirely impossible.
That's a bit dodgy when there is actually a lot of evidence (which Moiraine saw during her passage through the rings) that a failed attempt would lead to disaster, and that every time that she made (would make, whatever the past future tense of "to make" is) the attempt failed.
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Old 04-01-2012, 10:21 AM
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I think we can all agree that Moiraine would have chosen the option she felt was the best for the world. Now we don't know for certain that she saw every single possible outcome but we know that Lanfear was in battle mode and she the only playing with Rand because she wanted him to suffer and she felt she has the upper hand.

If Moiraine or anyone else presented as a read threat Lanfear would have struck to kill and even with an angreal Moiraine is toast in a direct one power confontation.

For those who say she was able to take out Be'lal she had the element of surprise. He thought that she was no threat what so ever. Lanfear may not like AS but she had proved to be a skilled enough duelest with the power not to take anything for granted especially while Rand who is a formidable opponent in his own right was trying to capture her.
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Old 04-01-2012, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Was a captured Lanfear a possibility at all?

So far, all you've presented in favor of that is the assertion that it may maybe not have been entirely impossible.
That's a bit dodgy when there is actually a lot of evidence (which Moiraine saw during her passage through the rings) that a failed attempt would lead to disaster, and that every time that she made (would make, whatever the past future tense of "to make" is) the attempt failed.
I know I disagree with you in a lot of other threads, but man I'm with you on this one.

THIS. THIS.
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  #27  
Old 04-01-2012, 02:37 PM
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I think we can all agree that Moiraine would have chosen the option she felt was the best for the world. Now we don't know for certain that she saw every single possible outcome but we know that Lanfear was in battle mode...
Yeah, but Moiraine has more than surprise and battle skill on her side. She has foreknowledge of these events. But her thoughts when she got to the wagon bed did not reveal any certainity that events would proceed in in definite direction. So its not likely she saw all futures.

Which futures did she see? Those based on her fears? or on her confidence? Most likely not all. Not by along shot.
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  #28  
Old 04-02-2012, 04:35 AM
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Yeah, but Moiraine has more than surprise and battle skill on her side. She has foreknowledge of these events. But her thoughts when she got to the wagon bed did not reveal any certainity that events would proceed in in definite direction. So its not likely she saw all futures.
There is another option, which actually has support from the books.
We know that many "individual futures" are forgotten. The Wise Ones tell us (and Moiraine, I think) so. So it is possible that Moiraine did see all of them, but only remembered a finite number.
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  #29  
Old 04-02-2012, 06:14 AM
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I'll just leave this here...

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Originally Posted by The Fires of Heaven: Ch. 7 - A Departure
The first test, the first winnowing, before any training even, was to step through one of those three rings. Which one did not matter, or perhaps the choice was a matter of fate. That step seemingly took her through her life again and again, her future spread out before her, all of the possible futures based on every decision she might make for the rest of her life. Death was possible in those, too; some women could not face the future any more than others could face the past. All possible futures were too many for a mind to retain, of course. They jumbled together and faded away for the most part, but a woman gained a sense of things that would happen in her life, that must happen, that might happen. Usually even that was hidden until the moment was on her. Not always, though. Moiraine had been through those rings.
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  #30  
Old 04-02-2012, 12:04 PM
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I'll just leave this here...
So which side are you on?

Ok. Lets play it like this. Moiraine's letter says she does not know what happens after her departure except what she wrote in Thom's letter. She can't lie. Two, Therava and the others shaido WOs have been through the rings yet they led the shaido to disaster at dumai wells.

How come if they knew the future or even had a sense of it? Not just one WO in error, but several following sevanna to disaster. I don't think the rings of rhuiden (RoR for short) confer anything like omniscience. And I've posted Moiraine's pov at the time of the attack which nothing of certainity about the outcome.

Like I said earlier, making a choice to confront Lanfear might have three general results: lose (lanfear kills Rand) draw(Lanfear escapes with Rand) and win. Of the last outcome, how many different ways can it come about? Specifically, how many ways can it occur from the point when she clawed away the bracelet?

Now if the RoR show Moiraine all three outcomes, it has satisfied "all possible futures" but from what standpoint? Take a chess analogy here. How many possible moves at the opening (1st move)? And how many possible moves at 5th move? You'll agree these are not the same possibilities we're talking about. The latter should be a subset of the former, and easier to remember (or figure out).

So the outcomes Moiraine saw were from when she entered the waste with Rand. She already knew then Lanfear was stalking Rand. And that she had been LTT's lover in the aol. From that point to the docks at cairhien, much has happened, time has passed and some of what she saw would be fulfilled. How much does she remember of the rest? But far more importantly, how much did she see that she did not know what occured after?
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  #31  
Old 04-02-2012, 12:26 PM
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For Therava and the others, the Car'a'carn was no more than a distant possibility. Until he was suddenly there, basically unexpected, though they had had a few months warning.

For Moiraine, when she went through those rings, the Dragon Reborn was not merely someone she knew could show up; it was someone she knew quite well already, and so he was a central part of her future.

Plus, I suspect that those rings are something like balefire: if you think too hard on them, then the Pattern unravels and you have to start all over.
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  #32  
Old 04-03-2012, 06:33 AM
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So which side are you on?
Ummm... Robert Jordan's?

Where you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf
So its not likely she saw all futures
Moraine did see all possible futures, 'all of the possible futures based on every decision she might make for the rest of her life. '

The rest can be understood from reading Moiraines POV and letters.
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  #33  
Old 04-03-2012, 07:45 AM
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Moraine did see all possible futures, 'all of the possible futures based on every decision she might make for the rest of her life. '

The rest can be understood from reading Moiraines POV and letters.
I don't know, then why did she say (and she can't lie) she does not know what happens after? And why was she so uncertain. RJ kept telling us that the characters can be wrong and often are. So I guess I should ask how do you know you've seen every possible future in order to make that claim?
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  #34  
Old 04-03-2012, 08:32 AM
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I don't know, then why did she say (and she can't lie) she does not know what happens after? And why was she so uncertain. RJ kept telling us that the characters can be wrong and often are. So I guess I should ask how do you know you've seen every possible future in order to make that claim?
She had seen all of her own futures, not just all possible futures of everything.

And she did not know which of those futures would come true, and which wouldn't.

To give an indication of what she had and hadn't remembered, there's her own letter to Rand, of which I will repost part here, with my own highlighting:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TFoH, Chapter 53, Fading Words
Since the first day I reached Rhuidean, I have known – it need not trouble you how, some secrets belong to others, and I will not betray them – that a day would come in Cairhien when news would arrive of Morgase. I did not know what that would be – if what we heard is true, the Light have mercy on her soul; she was willful and stubborn, with the temper of a lioness at times, but for all that a true, good and gracious queen – but each time that news led to the docks on the following day. There were three branches from the docks, but if you are reading this, I am gone, and so is Lanfear...
...
The other two paths were much worse. Down one, Lanfear killed you. Down the other, she carried you away, and when next we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and were her devoted lover.
So she had remembered that some news regarding Morgase would signal this showdown, but she had not remembered what that news would be. She apparently had no clue at all that Morgase wasn't dead, though she was not convinced that the news was wholly true either. Which latter makes sense, considering how wild some of the rumours can get there.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:46 AM
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I don't know, then why did she say (and she can't lie) she does not know what happens after? And why was she so uncertain.
Again.

Quote:
All possible futures were too many for a mind to retain, of course. They jumbled together and faded away for the most part, but a woman gained a sense of things that would happen in her life, that must happen, that might happen. Usually even that was hidden until the moment was on her. Not always, though. Moiraine had been through those rings.
She states that what she learned from the rings fades. And she is left with a sense; a sense is not knowing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
RJ kept telling us that the characters can be wrong and often are. So I guess I should ask how do you know you've seen every possible future in order to make that claim?
The fact that she cannot recall the futures themselves is not evidence towards her understanding whether or not she seen every possible one. By any logical sense, that has no bearing on the actual experience of the Rings.

If at one point she realised that she had seen every possible branch of her life - she would retain the knowledge of the experience of having seen it, just not those futures that she had seen.
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  #36  
Old 04-06-2012, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dajoran View Post
The fact that she cannot recall the futures themselves is not evidence towards her understanding whether or not she seen every possible one. By any logical sense, that has no bearing on the actual experience of the Rings.

If at one point she realised that she had seen every possible branch of her life - she would retain the knowledge of the experience of having seen it, just not those futures that she had seen.
You're avoiding the question. If I asked how do you when you've reached your destination, you'll be able to answer precisely only if you know the destination beforehand. But in this case, how does anyone know he/she has seen all possible futures (not the past) unless you know how many futures there are.

Thinking you might know can hardly be equated with actual knowledge. Its common for students to leave an exam hall with a "sense" of "knowing" that is often wrong. Moiraine knew there were gaps in her knowledge. She did not even mention a sense of knowing or having forgotten anything. Just ignorance and uncertainty.

Is the number of possible futures finite? If it stretches to infinity, then women who go through the rings will remain there for life. Or at least for a pretty long time. Remember though, that when you spend even a day inside the rings, the world outside the rings will change, and some of the futures you've seen may change. And the same for the next day you spend, and the next...

I don't think things are quite so absolute as you think.
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  #37  
Old 04-06-2012, 08:40 PM
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Perhaps it is my inner cynic, but I find it hard to go into the "what ifs" in fantasy because the author has already told us what happened, meaning nothing else could have happened.
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Old 12-17-2012, 12:52 PM
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Default Not taken into account.

There are two basic arguments posed here:

1. Did Moraine consider other options or not, ie Lanfear captured?
2. Did Moraine have the time to do anything but what she did?

For #1, While Moraine, in her letter, listed the three paths she saw, there is nothing to say therre were not more. Remember she saw three paths leading from the docks, not options to take at the while at the docks. So the problem facing her is to make sure that Lanfear does not kill Rand or capture Rand. ALL else must give way to that. One thing that has not been noted is (and IMO is very likely) is she was captured, she still would have turned Rand. Damsel in distress, helpless before everyone else.. yeah, she could have nade use of it, as well as her use of TAR. Additionally, Moraine had months to consider this. It was the best plan with the least risk.

#2. While we are considering things like Lanfear's strength, Moraine's strength, window of opportunity, what is not being considered is that Moraine is not really up to snuff. She has just been bitch slapped hard by Lanfear, who I think was second in strength after Ishmael. She is woozey, she is barely steady enough to move without disturbing the wagon. She still knows she might fail. She cannot take that chance.

What has not been considered, but must be taken into account (which I think Moraine did what she did) is that No plan survives contact with the enemy. This Axiom is one biggest in military thinking, and is even brought up by various generals in the book..Bryne, Iturade, Cauthon.

Rand was incapable of doing anything and was about to be killed. Moraine, being woozey, had no time for finesse. I do not believe that she would have had time to spin saidar. She had to make a physical attack that had the least likelyhood of failure.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:52 PM
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There are two basic arguments posed here:

1. Did Moraine consider other options or not, ie Lanfear captured?
2. Did Moraine have the time to do anything but what she did?
If Moraine could see every possible future and remember it all 100% she may have had a chance to come up with the perfect plan to take Lanfear out. Unfortunatly that's not how the rings work, she would only be left with vague impressions. To take out Lanfear and not risk Rand she would have had to have the prefect plan and without total recall and no plan surviving contact with the enemy she had no chance.


Secondly Moiraine was effective against Aginor to an extend and Be'lal but just a few things to remember. Aginor is not 100% he was trapped close to the bore and it wore down his body and we have seen that a physically exhaused channeler is not as strong or effective as they usually are. And she lost even with her angreal.

Against Be'lal she had the element of surprise and he could not see her weave. Lanfear has shown us that you can with the proper training fight a channeler of the opposite gender but it seems to me that its bound to be easier to fight your own sex.

Without the ability to invert her weaves as she is channeling Lanfear would see everything Moiraine was doing and either counter it or strike faster.

If Rand was going all out on the attack the story might have been different. Rand & angreal full out trying to kill her would probably have taken up all of Lanfear's channeling resourses unless her angreal was a lot stronger. In that circumstances Moiraine may have been able to tip the balance.

One last thing, Lanfear may not be the most cooperative of prisoners. Asmodean and Moggy are wimps. Compare their captivity to that of Semirhage. She was hardly forthcoming with info even after Caddy's spanking.
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