art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (1): ShadowbaneX,

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 12: The Gathering Storm
User Name
Password

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-31-2009, 04:51 PM
tsorovanmhael tsorovanmhael is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9
tsorovanmhael has a spectacular aura abouttsorovanmhael has a spectacular aura abouttsorovanmhael has a spectacular aura about
Default Callandor and the DO's prison

After reading this wonderful book, i am firmly convinced that Callandor will play the ultimate role in closing the Dark One's Prison.

First, Rand destroyed the access key to the Choedan Kal and just prior to that LTT was ranting that it was too powerful and "they" knew it wouldn't work. We know that Callandor was made during the debate of how to close the prison. We are also very aware that when the Hundred Companions went, saidin was tainted, thus turing men mad. Add to this failure the creation of callandor to be used by one male aes sedai and two female aes sedai and it is obvious that Callandor's purpose is to be the ultimate box.

Since the Choedan Kal is gone, there is nothing powerful enough, linked with both halves of the Source to close the Prison. Clearly the Creator placed teh DO were he wanted and since the Prison is part of the WoT, which is turned by the True Source, then a linked male/female with a powerful sa'angreal would be needed to put the proper closing on the DO's prison. Making as many refrences to Callandor's flaw and what it is, i feel was a clear line of thought by the AoL aes sedai that two powerfully linked women to LTT would be all that is needed to close the DO's prison.

Now, of course it should be Rand, but I believe that Avi and Nynaeve will be the one's to link. HE loves one and trusts the other and won't put his pregnant wife in harms way that close to the DO.

And I am not a damn youngling!

"Would you be Nae'blis? Kneel or be knealt!"
  #2  
Old 10-31-2009, 04:55 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,134
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Well, RJ said that if women had been with Lews Therin, then the result would have been saidar tainted as well. So I think there's a bit more to it than that. The theories of the True Power and Fain are each convincing. Obviously, Callandor has a role to play, but I don't think it's quite that simple.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #3  
Old 10-31-2009, 04:57 PM
tsorovanmhael tsorovanmhael is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9
tsorovanmhael has a spectacular aura abouttsorovanmhael has a spectacular aura abouttsorovanmhael has a spectacular aura about
Default fain and TP

I think that Rand's ishy wound, of course links them, but more importantly is fighting with Fain's wound and when "His blood is spilt on the Rocks" that taint will be losed and Rand will be whole again. That is what Aliva's job will be, to Heal Rand and make him live again. Then, with the glassy sword and his two chicks, he breaks the seals and closes the Prison.
  #4  
Old 10-31-2009, 05:27 PM
Tercel Tercel is offline
Ancient
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 255
Tercel will become famous soon enoughTercel will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsorovanmhael
After reading this wonderful book, i am firmly convinced that Callandor will play the ultimate role in closing the Dark One's Prison.
Yes, the hints about it seemed roughly the size of ten-ton rocks.

The hints I saw:
- Choedan Kal aren't mentioned in the prophesies, and are now both destroyed.
- Part of what went wrong for LTT was the lack of female channelers participating. Both male and female are needed.
- The other part of what went wrong for LTT was touching the OP directly to the DO, which directly caused the taint. The OP should not be used directly against the DO, hence another reason why the CK were not the correct goal.
- It is clear Callandor needs to be used in a link with Rand and two women (presumably Nynaeve and Alivia)
- Cadsuane believes a woman needs to lead that link, but her reasons for believing this don't impress me much.
- Herid Fel's message said "must clear rubble before you can build" which means the remaining seals must be destroyed.
- Herid Fel's message said "belief and order give strength" which implies a non-Power based sealing done through human belief and action.
- Min is going to find out the answer through reading philosophy books and commentaries on the Prophesies.

My own surmises:
- We have been told that the "bore" is a weakness in the Pattern around SG which allows the DO to be sensed through the pattern.
- The DO's desire to destroy the pattern itself and thus escape strongly hints that the pattern itself is his prison.
- The DO shows great anger that he "cannot step outside of time" when talking about not being able to resurrect someone who was BFed. This works well with the idea that Time itself (ie the Pattern) is his prison (see Thomas Covenant series for similar example of where the DO is bound by Time itself).
- So the solution would seem to be to "strengthen" the Pattern itself. It is unclear to me how the Callandor link, the triple Ta'veren, and "belief and order" could be combined to accomplish this.

Quote:
And I am not a damn youngling!
Neither, but it is amusing.
  #5  
Old 10-31-2009, 06:26 PM
1Powerslave's Avatar
1Powerslave 1Powerslave is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 649
1Powerslave is a splendid one to behold1Powerslave is a splendid one to behold1Powerslave is a splendid one to behold1Powerslave is a splendid one to behold1Powerslave is a splendid one to behold1Powerslave is a splendid one to behold1Powerslave is a splendid one to behold1Powerslave is a splendid one to behold1Powerslave is a splendid one to behold1Powerslave is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via ICQ to 1Powerslave Send a message via MSN to 1Powerslave Send a message via Yahoo to 1Powerslave
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tercel
My own surmises:
- We have been told that the "bore" is a weakness in the Pattern around SG which allows the DO to be sensed through the pattern.
- The DO's desire to destroy the pattern itself and thus escape strongly hints that the pattern itself is his prison.
- The DO shows great anger that he "cannot step outside of time" when talking about not being able to resurrect someone who was BFed. This works well with the idea that Time itself (ie the Pattern) is his prison (see Thomas Covenant series for similar example of where the DO is bound by Time itself).
- So the solution would seem to be to "strengthen" the Pattern itself. It is unclear to me how the Callandor link, the triple Ta'veren, and "belief and order" could be combined to accomplish this.
You should read my theory Healing The Bore:
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...ead.php?t=2234
__________________
Aelfinn to Rand: "To live you must *garbled due to the earthquake caused by Rand's ta'veren presence* Moridin"
"Before I let the Dark One have you, I will destroy you myself." -- Moiraine
  #6  
Old 10-31-2009, 07:19 PM
The Black Wind's Avatar
The Black Wind The Black Wind is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Alaska
Posts: 164
The Black Wind is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

I have a theory brewing about Callandor. One of it's flaws was obviously that it amplified the taint. This has been dealt with. The other "flaw" is much more important in my opinion. The second flaw is that Callandor lacks the buffer that all angreal and Sa'angreal have against drawing too much of the power. I Think this may not be a flaw but in fact the very aspect of callandor that makes it vital to sealing the DO's prison. It's possible that Rand will have to do as LTT once did and draw more of the power than he can possibly handle. With this extra power he might be able to seal the prison. I'm still working on the details but that's why I think Callandor is important.
__________________
Why, Rand? why do you go to battle? What is the point?

I fight because last time, I failed. I fight because I want to fix what I did wrong. I want to do it right this time.
  #7  
Old 10-31-2009, 08:51 PM
Davian93's Avatar
Davian93 Davian93 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 20,154
Davian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I dont see the True Power being used on the DO's prison. How would his own power seal him off exactly?

Fain I can see, but not the TP. Not without Rand losing.
__________________
Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
  #8  
Old 10-31-2009, 08:51 PM
Tercel Tercel is offline
Ancient
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 255
Tercel will become famous soon enoughTercel will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Powerslave
You should read my theory Healing The Bore:
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...ead.php?t=2234
On a general level I agree that the idea of Nynaeve discovering a way to "heal" the Pattern seems generally the right sort of thing. However:
- I don't think it will be the same weave as is used to heal humans. Though she might well be able to extrapolate from what heals humans and heals severing
- It doesn't account for "belief and order give strength"
- It doesn't account well for Ta'veren
- It doesn't account for Padan Fain

In one of the other threads, Padan Fain was mentioned, which reminded me of him... some sort of Lord of the Rings Gollum parallel seems clearly implied. We also know from the Cleansing of the taint that the SL evil and the DO's evil mutually annihilate. What effect would Fain/Gollum falling into the Pit of Doom have? Would the DO and Fain annihilate one another?

My thoughts on Ta'veren are that they seem to empower the Wheel itself to weave as it wills. Verin's story to Matt about being forced to come to him and bring him to Caemlyn shows the Wheel taking pretty direct control of proceedings. So perhaps the purpose of 3 strong Ta'veren at the end will be to empower the Wheel to fairly direct control of events. Or it is the Ta'veren themselves whose minds exercise control of the Pattern around them? Matt seems able to control dice with his will. Rand's Ta'vereness first made bad things only happen in Arad Doman when his mind was full of anger, and then good only happen on Dragonmount with sunlight around him with his mind was full of love. Perhaps the Ta'veren bend the pattern around them with their minds? In which case perhaps they can strengthen and order the pattern with their mind/beliefs similar to Herid Fel's quote.

The other thing I'm a bit confused about is Rand's fate. It seems to me that two quite different fates for Rand have been forshadowed:
1. He is actually killed at SG and Nynaeve resurrects him three days later with a new form of healing.
2. He deliberately fakes his own death at SG but doesn't actually die.
They seem to both have been forshadowed but seem mutually exclusive.

Another thing of interest is the discussion of whether Rand can 'kill' the DO or must merely seal his prison again and again throughout the ages. One of Rand's previous-life memories told him that universes were like flowers with some dying as the DO broke free and others blooming. To me the implication of that is that the Light can wiln for all time within any given universe. It implies some sort of final and complete victory of the Light, the opposite of the DO destroying the pattern. I understand that to mean that the DO can be 'killed' insofar as his presence can be permanently and irrevocably removed from this particular universe. So are we going to see the Final and Complete Victory of the Light in this Age, or simply the normal turning of the Wheel in which the DO is once again bound? Moridin seems right in his logic that if the Wheel keeps turning, eventually the DO will win... unless the light can have an irrevocable victory, something Moridin assumes to be impossible.
  #9  
Old 10-31-2009, 09:13 PM
Wunderwaffe's Avatar
Wunderwaffe Wunderwaffe is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 122
Wunderwaffe has a spectacular aura aboutWunderwaffe has a spectacular aura about
Send a message via AIM to Wunderwaffe
Default

I don't think the sealing of the Dark One's prison will include the use of the One Power, or the True Power.
__________________
Increasingly, the mathematics will demand the courage to face its implications.
  #10  
Old 10-31-2009, 09:19 PM
Jokeslayer Jokeslayer is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 1,318
Jokeslayer has a reputation beyond reputeJokeslayer has a reputation beyond reputeJokeslayer has a reputation beyond reputeJokeslayer has a reputation beyond reputeJokeslayer has a reputation beyond reputeJokeslayer has a reputation beyond reputeJokeslayer has a reputation beyond reputeJokeslayer has a reputation beyond reputeJokeslayer has a reputation beyond reputeJokeslayer has a reputation beyond reputeJokeslayer has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Jokeslayer
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tercel
So are we going to see the Final and Complete Victory of the Light in this Age, or simply the normal turning of the Wheel in which the DO is once again bound? Moridin seems right in his logic that if the Wheel keeps turning, eventually the DO will win... unless the light can have an irrevocable victory, something Moridin assumes to be impossible.
Thinking about this, and the mutual destruction of Taint and SL, and the DO and Fain, and the fact that Fain is something new to this age (although Age isn't synonymous with turning, so it's possible Fain was around in the last third age) (see interview quote below), has me liking the idea that Fain will somehow destroy the DO (well, maybe liking is the wrong word, but agreeing with certainly).

Has Rand mentioned the idea of destroying the DO before TGS? I don't think he has but I'm not sure.

Quote:
Date: 2002-12-09 | Location: Dragonmount/Wotmania
Type: Online | Questioner: Unknown
Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?
A: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.
__________________
YMMV

Last edited by Jokeslayer; 11-01-2009 at 10:01 AM.
  #11  
Old 10-31-2009, 09:41 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,134
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Well, Rand thought he had killed the Dark One before he knew that Ba'alzamon was Ishamael.

But you're right, I did get the impression from this book that RJ might have been planning on actually having Rand do away with the Dark One permanently. There are a few clues to it - one is Rand's newfound determination to do exactly that. Another is Moridin's point about how victory for Rand only leads to another battle, while victory for the Dark One means the end of everything, and this is what assures the Dark One's eventual victory in his mind.

The only thing we've had before to argue against this is what RJ said about there not being anything special about this age:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his age that makes it special?



RJ: No… every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.


But then, there is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
CNN Chat - 12 December, 2000

Chat moderator: How did you develop the idea for the Wheel of Time saga, and where did you get the name?



Robert Jordan: The name comes out of Hindu mythology, where there is a belief that time is a wheel. Many older cultures believe that time is cyclic, that it repeats. In fact, I believe the best thing the ancient Greeks gave us was (the idea) that time was linear and change was possible.
And another version of the same:


Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting

Question Part 1: In the Wheel of Time there is focus on events occurring again and again throughout history. Is it just history which is circular, or is it time itself which is in a loop?


Jordan: If you think of history being in a loop, then time must be in a loop. The Greeks were the first, as far as we know, to think of time being linear which allows for change. Almost every other culture prior to them had believed in circular time. If time is a wheel there is no possibility of change. Whatever I change now, whatever injustices I correct, the wheel will inevitably return, the inequities will return, there is no possibility for change, therefore there is not impetus to change. So time and history are in a loop in this world, a large enough loop..that it is really quite immense.


Also, it's been suggested that Rand's thought in Crossroads about the Creator was influenced by Moridin, as Rand didn't seem to think it fit either him or Lews Therin, and Moridin was, after all, a philosopher with a bad attitude.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #12  
Old 10-31-2009, 10:30 PM
Wunderwaffe's Avatar
Wunderwaffe Wunderwaffe is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 122
Wunderwaffe has a spectacular aura aboutWunderwaffe has a spectacular aura about
Send a message via AIM to Wunderwaffe
Default

Ishamael is a liar.
__________________
Increasingly, the mathematics will demand the courage to face its implications.
  #13  
Old 10-31-2009, 10:34 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,134
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Doesn't matter - what he says is logical, unless you assume that the Wheel has somehow guaranteed victory. Min seems to make it clear to Corele that the very idea is ridiculous.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #14  
Old 10-31-2009, 10:48 PM
the silent speaker the silent speaker is offline
Ancient
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 168
the silent speaker has a spectacular aura aboutthe silent speaker has a spectacular aura about
Default

Quote:
- It is clear Callandor needs to be used in a link with Rand and two women (presumably Nynaeve and Alivia)
Who draws it out shall follow after,
What hand can hold that dreadful blade?

It is my theory that this line is an answer followed by the question. That is, "What hand can hold [Callandor]?" is followed by "Who[ever] draws it out"; in other words, only Narishma can wield it now. This doesn't affect the two wopmen part of the wielding, but the point is, not Rand.
__________________
Paranoia is the delusion that your enemies don't hate each other as much as they hate you.

Always bring a knife to a gunfight. Bring a gun also.
  #15  
Old 11-01-2009, 05:03 AM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunderwaffe
I don't think the sealing of the Dark One's prison will include the use of the One Power, or the True Power.


Care to be specific?
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
  #16  
Old 11-01-2009, 11:38 AM
Wunderwaffe's Avatar
Wunderwaffe Wunderwaffe is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 122
Wunderwaffe has a spectacular aura aboutWunderwaffe has a spectacular aura about
Send a message via AIM to Wunderwaffe
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf


Care to be specific?
Unfortunately, atm, it's a very abstract idea with little supporting evidence. Still working out the details. I may find out that it's a totally ridiculous idea. But imo, it's worth pursuing. I just don't think they will use the OP to reseal the Bore. I think that in doing so, they would doom the world to a second Breaking.

Basically, I'll have to get back to you on that.
__________________
Increasingly, the mathematics will demand the courage to face its implications.
  #17  
Old 11-01-2009, 01:05 PM
Weird Harold's Avatar
Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: "Lost Wages," NV USA
Posts: 5,008
Weird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunderwaffe
Unfortunately, atm, it's a very abstract idea with little supporting evidence. Still working out the details. I may find out that it's a totally ridiculous idea. But imo, it's worth pursuing. I just don't think they will use the OP to reseal the Bore. I think that in doing so, they would doom the world to a second Breaking.

Basically, I'll have to get back to you on that.
A point to consider: Seed Singing didn't require the OP to work. There are epigrams that suggest Rand will sing the land back to health.
__________________
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just figure out which questions they go to. )

I met you in a past life. You were wrong then, too.
  #18  
Old 11-01-2009, 01:21 PM
One Armed Gimp's Avatar
One Armed Gimp One Armed Gimp is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 740
One Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to all
Default

I have never thought that Rand would actually seal (or heal) the DO's prison. Wouldn't the DO's prison have to return to its original state? If that is the case, I would think the Creator would need to be involved, which I think is supported by the voice in EotW.
__________________
Formerly known as ZT
  #19  
Old 11-01-2009, 02:27 PM
tsorovanmhael tsorovanmhael is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9
tsorovanmhael has a spectacular aura abouttsorovanmhael has a spectacular aura abouttsorovanmhael has a spectacular aura about
Default Just enough

I actually think that the amount of the One Power that can be used through Callandor with both linked females is 'just enough' of the right combination of the True Source to "Heal" the DO's prison and right the Pattern itself.

For some odd reason, that just sounds right, as if the blast that broke the prison required only so much force, the Pattern is needing only that much to close it.
  #20  
Old 11-01-2009, 08:32 PM
One Armed Gimp's Avatar
One Armed Gimp One Armed Gimp is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 740
One Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to allOne Armed Gimp is a name known to all
Default

So how is this:

The three shall become one. The three people channel are able to create one thread with just the right amount of power that the Creator then weaves into the pattern, repairing the damage to the DO's prison.

Just a shot out to left field.
__________________
Formerly known as ZT
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.