art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > WHEEL OF TIME FORUMS > General Wheel of Time Discussion
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-06-2012, 06:43 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
Hero: The Prophet of Moiraine
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,061
Seeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond repute
Default Rand throughout the Ages.

The Ilyena thread raised the question of what happens when someone like Rand is born in Ages where the One Power is unknown to mankind. One potential solution to the “Once a channeler, always a channeler” problem is to have Rand be a Learner with no one to teach him.

But let's go one step further. Let's assume that in every Age Rand is born a Sparker. He always channels even in Ages where no one knows about the One Power. He'd have a real hard time teaching anybody else to channel because

a) He'd a be a wilder with a one in four chance of surviving.

b) He wouldn't even know how to test for the ability to channel.

So, perhaps in such lives he'd be a wandering miracle worker, healing the sick by laying on hands, calling fire and lightning to strike down the wicked. That sort of thing. It would work wonderfully with RJ's theme of myth having a basis in reality but there is one problem.

Suppose every few thousand years or so, a man pops up who performs miracles. This would upset the balance between saidin and saidar as there is always one active saidin channeler throughout the WOT cycle but, so far as we know, no active saidar channeler outside the Ages where channeling is known to mankind.

Rand's presence in such a scenario would almost certainly necessitate a female counterpart. Not necessarily at the same TIME as him but appearing with the same frequency.

Discuss.
__________________
He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-06-2012, 06:54 PM
Tomp's Avatar
Tomp Tomp is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,229
Tomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant future
Default

Is it confirmed that the dragon is reborn in every age?
__________________
A good novel tells us the truth about its hero; but a bad novel tells us the truth about its author. (Chesterton)
What is worse? To be asked to die for your country; or be asked to kill for your country? (Bergström)
Never judge a book by its movie. (Eagan)
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. (Marx)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-06-2012, 07:05 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
Hero: The Prophet of Moiraine
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,061
Seeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I seem to recall RJ saying as much but for the purpose of this discussion, simply work within the theorhetical framework I've listed.

(Or create your own if you prefer )

Do you think the presence of a male channeler throughout history would necessitate a female counterpart.
__________________
He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-06-2012, 07:26 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,680
fionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant futurefionwe1987 has a brilliant future
Default

I think there are female Heroes who can channel. Almost certainly. Wasn't Mabriam en Shereed mentioned as one?

And there are enough motifs in the lives of Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene that match with previously famous female channelers who played critical roles in their times that any one of them can be a Hero. Moiriane, too, has aspects of her life very closely matched by various myths. Enough that she too may be a Hero.

I've also felt that Birgette's attraction to help Nynaeve and Perrin, but her desperate need to stay away from Egwene, point to all of them being Hero souls Birgette has had interactions with before. And since her life thread is kind of piggybacking on Elayne right now, perhaps this will cause Elayne also to be added to the Horn.

Then there's Shivan and Kalian. If Elayne's children are these two, and it is also likely that they channel, it would imply they are indeed channelers.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-06-2012, 07:31 PM
Weird Harold's Avatar
Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: "Lost Wages," NV USA
Posts: 5,007
Weird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
But let's go one step further. Let's assume that in every Age Rand is born a Sparker.
That's really dumb assumption.

You've forgotten the easiest resolution of the Channeling Soul + Channeling Body in a non-Channeling Age -- The absence of the True Source.

Given modern (New Age) traditions about Ley lines and "Places of Power" being remote and difficult to find/access, it would make more sense to "assume" that the proportion of Stedding to True Source access is variable. In ages, like ours, where "magic" is only a myth, most of the world is like a Stedding (Minus the peaceful aura) and no amount of ability will allow Channeling because there is nothing to Channel.
__________________
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just figure out which questions they go to. )

I met you in a past life. You were wrong then, too.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-06-2012, 09:03 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
Hero: The Prophet of Moiraine
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,061
Seeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
That's really dumb assumption.

You've forgotten the easiest resolution of the Channeling Soul + Channeling Body in a non-Channeling Age -- The absence of the True Source.

Given modern (New Age) traditions about Ley lines and "Places of Power" being remote and difficult to find/access, it would make more sense to "assume" that the proportion of Stedding to True Source access is variable. In ages, like ours, where "magic" is only a myth, most of the world is like a Stedding (Minus the peaceful aura) and no amount of ability will allow Channeling because there is nothing to Channel.
I personally don't subscribe to this theory, largely because I think the Stedding are pockets of the Ogier homeworld and not a naturally occurring phenomenon on Earth. But just for fun, I'll work within your framework.

Before I do, I'd like to point out that I prefer the genetic explanation for the rise and fall of channeling because it offers a simple explanation for how channeling came about and how it went away. At some point prior to the Age of Legends, humans were born with the channeling gene. The ability to channel can be lost by simply killing off all the channelers.

For instance, we know that the next Age is due for an industrial revolution where technology leaps forward. It's not out of the question for there to one day be a conflict between channelers and normals, most likely started by the latter in response to the perceived destructiveness of the latter. If people with the ability to channel are all killed off, that would result in the removal of the channeling gene from the gene pool until the Wheel reintroduces it.

There's an... elegance to this theory.

But when I ask myself about what might make the Stedding expand. Honestly, I've got nothing. I've been thinking about it for the last hour, trying to come up with something.


But just for fun, let's imagine that the loss of channeling is triggered by an expansion in the Stedding. We could then imagine a full turning of the Wheel to be a Year with seven Months (one for each age) and four seasons.

Summer would be the point where the ability to channel is strongest.

Winter would be the point where the ability to channel is weakest.

The Age of Legends would obviously be Spring and by extension, I think that Tarmon Gaidon takes place at or near the Summer Solstice. Why? Because of the rapid expansion of talents and discovery of things that had been thought “impossible” even in the Ages of Legends. Yes, yes, yes, only one percent of the population channels now as opposed to three percent of the population in the Age of Legends but that could easily be the result of the primitive technology. The Age of Legends had the advantage of Traveling along with planes (sho-wings) and automobiles (jo-cars) so it was easier for the Hall of Servants to find all the Learners and train them.

Until recently, scouring the countryside for potential trainees was quite an undertaking but that does not mean that Learners were not being BORN into the population. Possibly (probably) more of them than had been born in the Age of Legends. And that's not to mention all the Sparkers who die from a lack of training. Of course this tends toward a genetic explanation but I'll get back on task.

Right.

Okay, so if we liken the WOT cycle to a Year, then the One Power would be likened to sunlight. In Summer the sun is stronger than it is in Winter. Perhaps the universe itself has a curvature, an axis that gradually tilts. In Summer more of the True Source is shining on the universe causing a contraction of the Stedding. In Winter, however, the universe is “tilted” away from the Source, causing an expansion of the Stedding.

It's thin, I know.

I really do prefer the idea that channelers are simply killed off and not re-introduced until a random event triggers that mutation but this was fun.
__________________
He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.

Last edited by Seeker; 06-06-2012 at 09:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-07-2012, 11:06 AM
Weird Harold's Avatar
Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: "Lost Wages," NV USA
Posts: 5,007
Weird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
I personally don't subscribe to this theory, largely because I think the Stedding are pockets of the Ogier homeworld and not a naturally occurring phenomenon on Earth.
The Stedding don't necessarily have to have anything to do with the Stedding-like properties of a non-Channeling age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Before I do, I'd like to point out that I prefer the genetic explanation for the rise and fall of channeling because it offers a simple explanation for how channeling came about and how it went away.
There is nothing that says that genetics can't be part of the answer, but your OP is concerned with the conflict between "The Dragon Soul is born in every age" and "Channeling Souls will be born into Channeling Bodies." The simplest resolution to that paradox is that The Dragon Soul can indeed Channel in Every Incarnation, but in some Ages, there is nothing (or very little) to Channel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
If people with the ability to channel are all killed off, that would result in the removal of the channeling gene from the gene pool until the Wheel reintroduces it.
It wouldn't require a pogrom for the Pattern to eliminate Channeling, it would simply need to arrange for a generation or two of no Channelers being reborn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
But when I ask myself about what might make the Stedding expand. Honestly, I've got nothing. I've been thinking about it for the last hour, trying to come up with something.
It isn't so much an expansion of the Stedding but a decline in the accessibility of the True Source. IIRC, RJ said the True Source is "finite but inexhaustible."

If whatever Rand does to Heal the Bore ties up most of the True Source then there won't be much for other Channeling to use until Rand's patch begins to fail and releases the True Source back into the general use pool. The effect would be similar (but multiplied many times) to the problems caused by the BotW around Ebou Dar; Channeling would become much more difficult or completely impossible.
__________________
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just figure out which questions they go to. )

I met you in a past life. You were wrong then, too.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-19-2012, 03:35 AM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 261
Seth Baker is a glorious beacon of lightSeth Baker is a glorious beacon of lightSeth Baker is a glorious beacon of lightSeth Baker is a glorious beacon of lightSeth Baker is a glorious beacon of lightSeth Baker is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
It isn't so much an expansion of the Stedding but a decline in the accessibility of the True Source. IIRC, RJ said the True Source is "finite but inexhaustible."

If whatever Rand does to Heal the Bore ties up most of the True Source then there won't be much for other Channeling to use until Rand's patch begins to fail and releases the True Source back into the general use pool. The effect would be similar (but multiplied many times) to the problems caused by the BotW around Ebou Dar; Channeling would become much more difficult or completely impossible.
That's not correct. Finite means that there is a limit to it; but inexhaustible means that it can't be used up. You're suggesting that Rand's solution is to make some kind of standing weave of all of the One Power - but I think it's pretty clear that his solution is going to be remaking the Dark One's prison so that it can be whole again for the next Second Age. That's not going to use a standing weave, and it's CERTAINLY not going to tie up any of the One Power, since the One Power was unencumbered prior to the drilling of the Bore.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-19-2012, 09:41 AM
Weird Harold's Avatar
Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: "Lost Wages," NV USA
Posts: 5,007
Weird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Baker View Post
That's not correct. Finite means that there is a limit to it; but inexhaustible means that it can't be used up. You're suggesting that Rand's solution is to make some kind of standing weave of all of the One Power - but I think it's pretty clear that his solution is going to be remaking the Dark One's prison so that it can be whole again for the next Second Age. That's not going to use a standing weave, and it's CERTAINLY not going to tie up any of the One Power, since the One Power was unencumbered prior to the drilling of the Bore.
Accessibility of the OP isn't inquestion for the Second Age; that is when Channeling was (re)discovered, after all.

What the Tidal OP theory addresses is the accessibility of the OP -- and modern traditions about "Magic" including Ley Lines and Places of Power -- in the "Fourth" through "First" Ages of a Turning. Inherent in the theory is a gradual return of the True Source to accessibility in the "First Age" so that it can be (re)discovered and begin a new AOL.

It doesn't necessarily have to have any relationship to Rand's repair of the DO's prison, but that is going to be a significant event that might affect the availability of the True Source -- as opposed to some random tidal effect.
__________________
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just figure out which questions they go to. )

I met you in a past life. You were wrong then, too.

Last edited by Weird Harold; 06-19-2012 at 09:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-19-2012, 10:52 AM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 261
Seth Baker is a glorious beacon of lightSeth Baker is a glorious beacon of lightSeth Baker is a glorious beacon of lightSeth Baker is a glorious beacon of lightSeth Baker is a glorious beacon of lightSeth Baker is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Accessibility of the OP isn't inquestion for the Second Age; that is when Channeling was (re)discovered, after all.

What the Tidal OP theory addresses is the accessibility of the OP -- and modern traditions about "Magic" including Ley Lines and Places of Power -- in the "Fourth" through "First" Ages of a Turning. Inherent in the theory is a gradual return of the True Source to accessibility in the "First Age" so that it can be (re)discovered and begin a new AOL.

It doesn't necessarily have to have any relationship to Rand's repair of the DO's prison, but that is going to be a significant event that might affect the availability of the True Source -- as opposed to some random tidal effect.
I get what you're saying, but don't think that it can mechanically work in the story that RJ has set up. It just doesn't make sense. Especially since we saw post-repair scenes through the Aviendha Rhuidean chapter and none of the channelers there noticed any difference.

I'm not really a fan of the Tidal OP theory. I think it kind of contradicts the metaphysical framework that RJ set up - the One Power drives the Wheel of Time, but we're to believe that it somehow withdraws from the entire world at an Age change? There are mechanics that you can make up to support this theory but... they're made up, and I don't think RJ left enough commentary on WOT metaphysics for us to figure out what's going on. At least, nowhere that I've seen.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-19-2012, 12:50 PM
Aulis Vaara's Avatar
Aulis Vaara Aulis Vaara is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 71
Aulis Vaara has a spectacular aura aboutAulis Vaara has a spectacular aura aboutAulis Vaara has a spectacular aura about
Default

To add to that: the more things of importance happen in one age, the less is available for the other ages.

If everything happened in the second and third ages, why would 4, 5, 6, 7 even be there? Putting the end of channeling in the current age is stealing it from the future/past, and this story really deserves its own age.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-19-2012, 03:52 PM
Weird Harold's Avatar
Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: "Lost Wages," NV USA
Posts: 5,007
Weird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Baker View Post
I get what you're saying, but don't think that it can mechanically work in the story that RJ has set up.
On the contrary, the world RJ built for his story encompasses our world, or some analog thereof, and any explanation for the loss of any memory of Channeling has to include our r/w concepts and traditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Baker View Post
It just doesn't make sense. Especially since we saw post-repair scenes through the Aviendha Rhuidean chapter and none of the channelers there noticed any difference.
1: I don't believe Aviendha saw a true future -- if she saw anything more than a halucination.

2: Channeling won't disappear like someone flipped a switch. Channeling will take, at least, a century or two, if not the entire fourth age, to fade away completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Baker View Post
I'm not really a fan of the Tidal OP theory. I think it kind of contradicts the metaphysical framework that RJ set up - the One Power drives the Wheel of Time, but we're to believe that it somehow withdraws from the entire world at an Age change?
1: RJ's metaphysics pretty much requires that the OP be unavailable to Channelers during at least the "seventh" and "first" ages. Or that no Channelers be spun out, which contradicts the premise of this thread that the Dragon Soul is spun out in every age and that channeling souls always get spun out into channeling bodies -- which requires far more manipulation by the Wheel/Pattern than the true Source simply receding beyond human reach.


2: The True Source/OP would NOT stop driving the WOT, it would just ONLY drive the WOT without being accessible for human-scale tasking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aulis Vaara View Post
If everything happened in the second and third ages, why would 4, 5, 6, 7 even be there? Putting the end of channeling in the current age is stealing it from the future/past, and this story really deserves its own age.
According to RJ's mantra of "History becomes Legend and Legend becomes Myth before knowledge is lost completely to the Mists of Time," the loss of Channeling has to happen before the end of the Next Age. That leaves the Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Ages without Channeling so that it can be re-discovered in the "First Age" and be developed enough to make a new AOL in the next Turning.

Marking the end of this Age with an "Event" that begins the decline, and eventual loss, of Channeling by returning the True Source/OP to its primary task of Turning the WOT instead of diverting it to human comfort/whims fits with RJ's Cosmology that requires Channeling to be lost long enough for even myths to "fade away into the mists of Time."

It doesn't detract from this story to set up the next story as dealing with the consequences of ending this Age.
__________________
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just figure out which questions they go to. )

I met you in a past life. You were wrong then, too.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-20-2012, 06:18 AM
Boli Boli is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 86
Boli is just really niceBoli is just really niceBoli is just really niceBoli is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Robert Jordan
As regards Randland being the future/part of our world, he made a reference to the game 'Chinese Whispers'. He said that, like in the game, the happenings of our time/age will be changed/twisted [my words] into Randland's myths, and similarly the occurrences in Randland will/have become our myths.
He also mentioned the fact that he tried to 'reverse-engineer' [his word] the current myths that we have into WoT's happenings/history, and our history into WoT's myths.
Quote:
Scotty1489
Is our earth a future or past turn of the wheel?

Robert Jordan
Both. The characters in the books are the source of many of our myths and legends and we are the source of many of theirs. You can look two ways along a wheel.
Quote:
Robert Jordan

The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)
RJ was also very clear about a few things: that it was the rediscovery of channelling, not the One Power which heralded the new age; basically he never admitted that the One Power ebbed and flowed throughout the ages; but it was the knowledge to channel it which did. Taking Myths and Legends into account we can see that the "final" myths of our world... come from the 20th century or earlier basically the landing on the moon and the giants of Mosk and Merk so we can surmise one of two theories.

1. Mosk and Merk destroyed the world ending “our” age making our age the 7th and the 1st age one of barbarism where civilisation was rebuilt from scratch and channelling was re-discovered at the end of the 1st age... to an age more likely to believe in it.
2. Tamylyn was reborn to herald the end of our age and the revolutions which followed signalled the end of the 1st age; and began the 2nd Age (of legends) where war was forgotten and people lived in peace and harmony.

Of the two I think the first is far more likely, especially given as RJ began planning the book in 1985; at a time where the Cold War was in the forefront of many of people's minds; and there is nothing even suggesting exploration of the stars or any science fiction elements beyond landing on the moon; it will also allow far more time for corruption of our history into myth.

Looking at the major myths we can also theorise that a previous reincarnation of Rand was Noah – a flood myth is prevalent throughout most cultures (due to the end of the last ice age) where one man heralded the end of a previous age by destroying the corruption and unworthy; The Dragon destroying and saving the world to a tee.

Whether Noah was the herald of our age or the one before is not particularly clear however but aspects such as him - and his ancestors living *far* longer than normal and whilst nothing of him suggests having magic... only belief and presence (ta'veren) he could quite easily be a latent channeller. Nyneave had slowed in her age even though she was unaware of channelling. - the same could be true for others.

I don't think the 4th age would be the one to have channelling disappear there is simply too much that needs to be resolved with the slavery of people with the power. I see that being the theme to the next age. We better find out about the pattern of the 7 ages once the final book comes our – I'll admit it has been bugging me for a while :P
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-20-2012, 03:01 PM
Weird Harold's Avatar
Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: "Lost Wages," NV USA
Posts: 5,007
Weird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boli View Post
1. Mosk and Merk destroyed the world ending “our” age making our age the 7th and the 1st age one of barbarism where civilisation was rebuilt from scratch and channelling was re-discovered at the end of the 1st age... to an age more likely to believe in it.

2. Tamylyn was reborn to herald the end of our age and the revolutions which followed signalled the end of the 1st age; and began the 2nd Age (of legends) where war was forgotten and people lived in peace and harmony.

Of the two I think the first is far more likely, ...
There is no reason that both couldn't be likely. There is no fixed time frame for an "Age," and an "Age of Barbarism" following an apocalyptic war before Channeling is rediscovered to usher in an Age of Legends is far from impossible.

I think the fact that the label "Third Age" is commonly used obscures the fact that it is only a label of convenience. Any Age could be labeled "the Third Age" by those who live in it -- another, equivalent, label would be "The Present
Age"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boli View Post
I don't think the 4th age would be the one to have channelling disappear there is simply too much that needs to be resolved with the slavery of people with the power. I see that being the theme to the next age. We better find out about the pattern of the 7 ages once the final book comes our – I'll admit it has been bugging me for a while :P
Even if the current Age's 3,000+ years is a typical length for "An Age," that is more than enough time to resolve any lingering issues about Slavery and for Channeling to fade away completely.

It took an untold number of centuries for Channeling to develop from a few practioners at the beginning of the AOL to a civilization built around the OP and Channeling. It took an entire Age for channeling to mature, another entire Age to deal with the DO, and will probably take another entire Age for Channeling to fade away. Channeling will end with as few practioners as it began with; "Tamyrlin" was the "First Channeler" and some singular "Merlin" type character will be credited with being the "Last Channeler."

The "Story of Channeling" can only consume three of the seven Ages, since it takes a full age for each stage of "Legend to Myth to Forgotten." There are also three similar Ages going into the Future plus the Present Age for a total of Seven Ages in a full Turning. The Future Ages are required by the bidirectional nature of circular time; if Past and Future are simply a matter of which way you are facing, the there must be an equivalent to "Legend, Myth,Forgotten" in each direction.
__________________
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just figure out which questions they go to. )

I met you in a past life. You were wrong then, too.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-07-2012, 01:44 PM
Ozymandias's Avatar
Ozymandias Ozymandias is offline
Ancient
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,839
Ozymandias is a name known to allOzymandias is a name known to allOzymandias is a name known to allOzymandias is a name known to allOzymandias is a name known to allOzymandias is a name known to allOzymandias is a name known to allOzymandias is a name known to all
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post

The "Story of Channeling" can only consume three of the seven Ages, since it takes a full age for each stage of "Legend to Myth to Forgotten."
I'm not sure this is the case, as much as just a colloquialism. It doesn't have to be an exact age. Its just a generic reference point. For example, most of the early Third Age is legend at this point. Hasn't been an entire Age, though. You could even say certain of the stories are already myth, despite not existing for more than an Age. Like the ones regarding Avendesora, which has only existed for, say, 2800 years or however long its been the unique chora tree left.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-07-2012, 03:28 PM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Has anyone ever considered that channeling might actually be a permanent change introduced in one turning of the Wheel and which is now present in all ages? We know there are minute differences between the Ages in each turning; I'd always assumed that over the course of several turnings, that would render each Age unrecognisable from a much earlier version of that Age. If channeling just appeared and stuck around at one point, it could just be one more small difference that added up over (heh) time.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-07-2012, 04:22 PM
Weird Harold's Avatar
Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: "Lost Wages," NV USA
Posts: 5,007
Weird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Has anyone ever considered that channeling might actually be a permanent change introduced in one turning of the Wheel and which is now present in all ages?
I don't recall the question that prompted the answer, but RJ said that Channeling was not possible in some ages.

The basic circular time cosmology of the WOT basically eliminates any permanent changes, even though there are minor differences from one Turning to the next.
__________________
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just figure out which questions they go to. )

I met you in a past life. You were wrong then, too.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-07-2012, 10:06 PM
Marie Curie 7's Avatar
Marie Curie 7 Marie Curie 7 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,235
Marie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Has anyone ever considered that channeling might actually be a permanent change introduced in one turning of the Wheel and which is now present in all ages? We know there are minute differences between the Ages in each turning; I'd always assumed that over the course of several turnings, that would render each Age unrecognisable from a much earlier version of that Age. If channeling just appeared and stuck around at one point, it could just be one more small difference that added up over (heh) time.
As Weird Harold indicated, for channeling to become a permanent change in every Age is something that would be too large a difference for an Age, even considering the variations that might exist after many turnings. From RJ:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Interview: Apr 7th, 2001
Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein

Aan'allein: You talked before about the same Age in different Turnings, you can compare them to tapestries, they look alike at first sight. I was wondering, when at first sight, what would make a difference... Two points I'm really interested in. [*grumble* A stupid mobile phone was apparently not switched off here; yet again... I think Leiden was the only question session not interrupted by this.] Level of technology and gender related...if for example the roles of men and women were switched between Ages, would the tapestries still look alike at first sight?

Robert Jordan: Ah, but you're not gonna have that sort of switch. In this Age, how can you have a switch? One of the things for instance in the Age that I wrote. One of the things...For instance, I've been accused by some people of ignoring the feminist struggle. Well, there is no feminist struggle in this world, because there is no need for one. No one says a woman can't do this because she is a woman. A woman wants to be a blacksmith, she can learn to be a blacksmith, and she becomes a blacksmith, or a merchant or a wagon driver, or a worker on the docks, or wherever else. All of that took place, took place a long time ago. And they're very good at it. That sets the whole reasons why this should come about. Three thousand years ago the world was destroyed, by men. There is one group that has survived for that three thousand years, one organization that has managed to stick together for three thousand years, and have a great influence on history, and that is a group of women.

Okay, so you just don't have, you just don't have it. To have a reversal of roles means... absolutely nothing.

Aan'allein: Okay, so the sociological results would always be the same, every Turning...?

Robert Jordan: Ah, that is one of the things, one of the things that would be a large, a very large change. Uhm, it's gonna be the smaller details, smaller things than that which change.
And yes, RJ did say that channeling is not possible in some Ages (and that would presumably apply for ANY turning):

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

Robert Jordan Answers:
The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-07-2012, 04:17 PM
Weird Harold's Avatar
Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: "Lost Wages," NV USA
Posts: 5,007
Weird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant futureWeird Harold has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
I'm not sure this is the case, as much as just a colloquialism. It doesn't have to be an exact age. Its just a generic reference point. For example, most of the early Third Age is legend at this point. Hasn't been an entire Age, though. ...
In the real world, you would be absolutely correct. Even astrological Ages, like the Age of Aquarius, don't have a precisely determinable starting or ending point.

In large part, the WOT exhibits the same piecemeal transition of ages the real world does; Specific events or people become myths and legends independent of the Seven Ages of the Wheel Of Time.

But this IS the WOT and there are Seven Ages and those Ages have clearly defined starting/ending points -- not necessarily detectible by humans, but markers as precise as a Clock Tolling midnight.

RJ said that the discovery of Channeling marked the beginning of the Second Age (AOL) and the Drilling of the Bore marked the end of that Age. There is some dispute as to whether The Breaking is part of the Third Age or whether it is an interregnum between Ages; but whether the Event marking the beginning of the Third Age Was the Bore or the Death of the Last Male Aes Sedai, as calendar makers assigned, there was a singular event that marked the Changing of each Age in a cosmological sense.

In terms of the Seven Ages of the WOT, the AOL represents the discovery and rise of Channeling, The current, Third, Age represents the Fall and Decline of Channeling, and the Next, Fourth Age has to include the demise/loss of Channeling even if it isn't the central theme of the Age.

Even though there is an "Event" marking the changing of an Age in a cosmological sense, the process you describe will play a role in the change. People living through the changing of an Age generally won't notice or find out that the Age has changed for quite some time.

For Example, the beginning of The Atomic Age in the RW happened either when the first sustained chain reaction was initiated, or (more probably) when the Trinity Test exploded at White Sands, New Mexico. In either case, only a few people knew about the "Event" and the rest of the world remained clueless for months or years, until realization spread that a New Age had begun. That lack of recognition in the wider world doesn't change the fact that the Atomic Age probably began in a microsecond or so on July 16, 1945.
__________________
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just figure out which questions they go to. )

I met you in a past life. You were wrong then, too.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-07-2012, 10:17 PM
Marie Curie 7's Avatar
Marie Curie 7 Marie Curie 7 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,235
Marie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond reputeMarie Curie 7 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
RJ said that the discovery of Channeling marked the beginning of the Second Age (AOL) and the Drilling of the Bore marked the end of that Age. There is some dispute as to whether The Breaking is part of the Third Age or whether it is an interregnum between Ages; but whether the Event marking the beginning of the Third Age Was the Bore or the Death of the Last Male Aes Sedai, as calendar makers assigned, there was a singular event that marked the Changing of each Age in a cosmological sense.
Discovery of channeling marked the beginning of the Second Age, or at least the end of the Age before (from one of the same quotes I gave in the previous post):

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005

Week 18 Question:
Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.
That is, even the demarcation of the First/Second Ages is not clearly delineated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
In terms of the Seven Ages of the WOT, the AOL represents the discovery and rise of Channeling, The current, Third, Age represents the Fall and Decline of Channeling, and the Next, Fourth Age has to include the demise/loss of Channeling even if it isn't the central theme of the Age.

Well, it may be that channeling will begin to decline somewhat during the Fourth Age, but it will not go away during the Fourth Age:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BS
BarnesandNoble.com Book Club Q&A with Brandon Sanderson
July 2009

Aldoth: The question that I have for you is, now that you know the ending of Wheel of Time, after the final book has been released will it be a world that you could set a game in? Or will it be like Tolkien where after the end of Lord of the Rings the world is pretty much over? I ask because it looks to be a great place to set an RPG and I want to know if I should be looking to a time before The Eye of the World or if I should run a new age?

Brandon Sanderson: I'm going to stick pretty close to things Mr. Jordan has said or implied regarding this. Things he has said have implied strongly that it is not going to be like Tolkien; though the Wheel will eventually turn to a point where the One Power is forgotten and the land becomes like our world, that is NOT the Fourth Age. I think it would still be a fantastic place to set an RPG game.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.