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  #41  
Old 06-20-2012, 03:01 PM
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1. Mosk and Merk destroyed the world ending “our” age making our age the 7th and the 1st age one of barbarism where civilisation was rebuilt from scratch and channelling was re-discovered at the end of the 1st age... to an age more likely to believe in it.

2. Tamylyn was reborn to herald the end of our age and the revolutions which followed signalled the end of the 1st age; and began the 2nd Age (of legends) where war was forgotten and people lived in peace and harmony.

Of the two I think the first is far more likely, ...
There is no reason that both couldn't be likely. There is no fixed time frame for an "Age," and an "Age of Barbarism" following an apocalyptic war before Channeling is rediscovered to usher in an Age of Legends is far from impossible.

I think the fact that the label "Third Age" is commonly used obscures the fact that it is only a label of convenience. Any Age could be labeled "the Third Age" by those who live in it -- another, equivalent, label would be "The Present
Age"


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Originally Posted by Boli View Post
I don't think the 4th age would be the one to have channelling disappear there is simply too much that needs to be resolved with the slavery of people with the power. I see that being the theme to the next age. We better find out about the pattern of the 7 ages once the final book comes our – I'll admit it has been bugging me for a while :P
Even if the current Age's 3,000+ years is a typical length for "An Age," that is more than enough time to resolve any lingering issues about Slavery and for Channeling to fade away completely.

It took an untold number of centuries for Channeling to develop from a few practioners at the beginning of the AOL to a civilization built around the OP and Channeling. It took an entire Age for channeling to mature, another entire Age to deal with the DO, and will probably take another entire Age for Channeling to fade away. Channeling will end with as few practioners as it began with; "Tamyrlin" was the "First Channeler" and some singular "Merlin" type character will be credited with being the "Last Channeler."

The "Story of Channeling" can only consume three of the seven Ages, since it takes a full age for each stage of "Legend to Myth to Forgotten." There are also three similar Ages going into the Future plus the Present Age for a total of Seven Ages in a full Turning. The Future Ages are required by the bidirectional nature of circular time; if Past and Future are simply a matter of which way you are facing, the there must be an equivalent to "Legend, Myth,Forgotten" in each direction.
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  #42  
Old 08-07-2012, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post

The "Story of Channeling" can only consume three of the seven Ages, since it takes a full age for each stage of "Legend to Myth to Forgotten."
I'm not sure this is the case, as much as just a colloquialism. It doesn't have to be an exact age. Its just a generic reference point. For example, most of the early Third Age is legend at this point. Hasn't been an entire Age, though. You could even say certain of the stories are already myth, despite not existing for more than an Age. Like the ones regarding Avendesora, which has only existed for, say, 2800 years or however long its been the unique chora tree left.
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  #43  
Old 08-07-2012, 03:28 PM
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Has anyone ever considered that channeling might actually be a permanent change introduced in one turning of the Wheel and which is now present in all ages? We know there are minute differences between the Ages in each turning; I'd always assumed that over the course of several turnings, that would render each Age unrecognisable from a much earlier version of that Age. If channeling just appeared and stuck around at one point, it could just be one more small difference that added up over (heh) time.
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  #44  
Old 08-07-2012, 04:17 PM
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I'm not sure this is the case, as much as just a colloquialism. It doesn't have to be an exact age. Its just a generic reference point. For example, most of the early Third Age is legend at this point. Hasn't been an entire Age, though. ...
In the real world, you would be absolutely correct. Even astrological Ages, like the Age of Aquarius, don't have a precisely determinable starting or ending point.

In large part, the WOT exhibits the same piecemeal transition of ages the real world does; Specific events or people become myths and legends independent of the Seven Ages of the Wheel Of Time.

But this IS the WOT and there are Seven Ages and those Ages have clearly defined starting/ending points -- not necessarily detectible by humans, but markers as precise as a Clock Tolling midnight.

RJ said that the discovery of Channeling marked the beginning of the Second Age (AOL) and the Drilling of the Bore marked the end of that Age. There is some dispute as to whether The Breaking is part of the Third Age or whether it is an interregnum between Ages; but whether the Event marking the beginning of the Third Age Was the Bore or the Death of the Last Male Aes Sedai, as calendar makers assigned, there was a singular event that marked the Changing of each Age in a cosmological sense.

In terms of the Seven Ages of the WOT, the AOL represents the discovery and rise of Channeling, The current, Third, Age represents the Fall and Decline of Channeling, and the Next, Fourth Age has to include the demise/loss of Channeling even if it isn't the central theme of the Age.

Even though there is an "Event" marking the changing of an Age in a cosmological sense, the process you describe will play a role in the change. People living through the changing of an Age generally won't notice or find out that the Age has changed for quite some time.

For Example, the beginning of The Atomic Age in the RW happened either when the first sustained chain reaction was initiated, or (more probably) when the Trinity Test exploded at White Sands, New Mexico. In either case, only a few people knew about the "Event" and the rest of the world remained clueless for months or years, until realization spread that a New Age had begun. That lack of recognition in the wider world doesn't change the fact that the Atomic Age probably began in a microsecond or so on July 16, 1945.
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  #45  
Old 08-07-2012, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Has anyone ever considered that channeling might actually be a permanent change introduced in one turning of the Wheel and which is now present in all ages?
I don't recall the question that prompted the answer, but RJ said that Channeling was not possible in some ages.

The basic circular time cosmology of the WOT basically eliminates any permanent changes, even though there are minor differences from one Turning to the next.
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  #46  
Old 08-07-2012, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Has anyone ever considered that channeling might actually be a permanent change introduced in one turning of the Wheel and which is now present in all ages? We know there are minute differences between the Ages in each turning; I'd always assumed that over the course of several turnings, that would render each Age unrecognisable from a much earlier version of that Age. If channeling just appeared and stuck around at one point, it could just be one more small difference that added up over (heh) time.
As Weird Harold indicated, for channeling to become a permanent change in every Age is something that would be too large a difference for an Age, even considering the variations that might exist after many turnings. From RJ:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Interview: Apr 7th, 2001
Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein

Aan'allein: You talked before about the same Age in different Turnings, you can compare them to tapestries, they look alike at first sight. I was wondering, when at first sight, what would make a difference... Two points I'm really interested in. [*grumble* A stupid mobile phone was apparently not switched off here; yet again... I think Leiden was the only question session not interrupted by this.] Level of technology and gender related...if for example the roles of men and women were switched between Ages, would the tapestries still look alike at first sight?

Robert Jordan: Ah, but you're not gonna have that sort of switch. In this Age, how can you have a switch? One of the things for instance in the Age that I wrote. One of the things...For instance, I've been accused by some people of ignoring the feminist struggle. Well, there is no feminist struggle in this world, because there is no need for one. No one says a woman can't do this because she is a woman. A woman wants to be a blacksmith, she can learn to be a blacksmith, and she becomes a blacksmith, or a merchant or a wagon driver, or a worker on the docks, or wherever else. All of that took place, took place a long time ago. And they're very good at it. That sets the whole reasons why this should come about. Three thousand years ago the world was destroyed, by men. There is one group that has survived for that three thousand years, one organization that has managed to stick together for three thousand years, and have a great influence on history, and that is a group of women.

Okay, so you just don't have, you just don't have it. To have a reversal of roles means... absolutely nothing.

Aan'allein: Okay, so the sociological results would always be the same, every Turning...?

Robert Jordan: Ah, that is one of the things, one of the things that would be a large, a very large change. Uhm, it's gonna be the smaller details, smaller things than that which change.
And yes, RJ did say that channeling is not possible in some Ages (and that would presumably apply for ANY turning):

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

Robert Jordan Answers:
The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)
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  #47  
Old 08-07-2012, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
RJ said that the discovery of Channeling marked the beginning of the Second Age (AOL) and the Drilling of the Bore marked the end of that Age. There is some dispute as to whether The Breaking is part of the Third Age or whether it is an interregnum between Ages; but whether the Event marking the beginning of the Third Age Was the Bore or the Death of the Last Male Aes Sedai, as calendar makers assigned, there was a singular event that marked the Changing of each Age in a cosmological sense.
Discovery of channeling marked the beginning of the Second Age, or at least the end of the Age before (from one of the same quotes I gave in the previous post):

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005

Week 18 Question:
Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.
That is, even the demarcation of the First/Second Ages is not clearly delineated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
In terms of the Seven Ages of the WOT, the AOL represents the discovery and rise of Channeling, The current, Third, Age represents the Fall and Decline of Channeling, and the Next, Fourth Age has to include the demise/loss of Channeling even if it isn't the central theme of the Age.

Well, it may be that channeling will begin to decline somewhat during the Fourth Age, but it will not go away during the Fourth Age:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BS
BarnesandNoble.com Book Club Q&A with Brandon Sanderson
July 2009

Aldoth: The question that I have for you is, now that you know the ending of Wheel of Time, after the final book has been released will it be a world that you could set a game in? Or will it be like Tolkien where after the end of Lord of the Rings the world is pretty much over? I ask because it looks to be a great place to set an RPG and I want to know if I should be looking to a time before The Eye of the World or if I should run a new age?

Brandon Sanderson: I'm going to stick pretty close to things Mr. Jordan has said or implied regarding this. Things he has said have implied strongly that it is not going to be like Tolkien; though the Wheel will eventually turn to a point where the One Power is forgotten and the land becomes like our world, that is NOT the Fourth Age. I think it would still be a fantastic place to set an RPG game.
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  #48  
Old 08-08-2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 View Post
That is, even the demarcation of the First/Second Ages is not clearly delineated.
I think RJ was speaking from a Historian's perspective, there -- from the mindset of Ozymandias' assertion. That is distinct from the perspective of the Cosmology that dictates Seven Ages and only Seven Ages.

From a Historian's perspective, there are far more than seven ages, and the turning points that define them are arbitrary and chosen by historians long after the fact -- as the "End of the Breaking" was arbitrarily set as "the death of the last male Aes Sedai" some hundred years after the fact, when the exact identity of the last male Aes Sedai was long forgotten, let alone the date and time of his death.

However, from a cosmological perspective each of the Seven Ages of the WOT must have some defining point or event that marks the change, whether mankind can define or pinpoint it or not. There is some point on the circular timeline where it is no longer one Age, but the Next Age.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 View Post
Well, it may be that channeling will begin to decline somewhat during the Fourth Age, but it will not go away during the Fourth Age:
There is no doubt that the Fourth Age will begin with Channeling essentially unchanged. But the question is, "What will be the state of Channeling at the end of the Fourth Age?"

I think that, in order for Channeling to be completely eliminated and then forgotten by beginning of the next Second Age, Channeling has to have declined to the point that the Fifth Age will begin without any Channeling at all.

Rand and Mat have started the process of replacing "magic" with "technology" and that is the logical theme for the Fourth Age. That sort of theme requires the demise of Channeling so that Technology can resolve the crisis-point at the end of Fourth Age.
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  #49  
Old 08-08-2012, 09:29 AM
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Rand and Mat have started the process of replacing "magic" with "technology" and that is the logical theme for the Fourth Age. That sort of theme requires the demise of Channeling so that Technology can resolve the crisis-point at the end of Fourth Age.
Only if channeling and technology can't be combined.
Nynaeve is doing so, in the area of medical technology, with using both herbs and Healing.

It seems more likely that in the Fourth Age there'll be a combination of technology and channeling, rather than a cessation of either.
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  #50  
Old 08-08-2012, 11:10 AM
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Only if channeling and technology can't be combined.
Nynaeve is doing so, in the area of medical technology, with using both herbs and Healing.

It seems more likely that in the Fourth Age there'll be a combination of technology and channeling, rather than a cessation of either.
If not for the minor detail that Channeling must decline and disappear soon (in cosmological time-scale) I'd almost agree with you. But Technology and Channeling combined, or Channeling-based Technology, was the province of the AOL.

The time of Channeling has to end soon enough to be completely forgotten before the Wheel Turns again.
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  #51  
Old 08-08-2012, 11:25 AM
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But that depends on a literal interpretation of "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."
Specifically, it assumes it can't all happen in one single Age.

Suppose that the Seventh Age ends with a really spectacular fight, rather than the half hearted affairs we've seen so far.
Then we could have a situation where the Dragon uses a super-Choedan Kal to stuff the escaped DO back into his prison. As a result, all channelers in the whole world would be burned out. Side effects would be that most people also died, and so much of the OP would be used that the Wheel of Time turned slower, making it impossible to get anything done, thus totally obliterating all civilisation, all learning, and (eventually) all stories of what had happened. Only after a long time (a million years, say) would the True Source start to recover, and channeling would become possible once again. That's then the start of the Second Age.

Not saying this is wholly accurate, but I don't see why we should assume that forgetting stuff needs to take many ages, when we know it can be done a lot quicker, if people just try.
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  #52  
Old 08-08-2012, 12:49 PM
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But that depends on a literal interpretation of "The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."

Specifically, it assumes it can't all happen in one single Age.
Exactly!

It depends on accepting the cosmology as presented.
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  #53  
Old 08-08-2012, 12:51 PM
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It depends on accepting the cosmology as presented.
No, it depends on accepting a simplistic interpretation of that cosmology. That's not quite the same, I think.
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  #54  
Old 08-08-2012, 01:36 PM
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No, it depends on accepting a simplistic interpretation of that cosmology. That's not quite the same, I think.
The Cosmology as presented is anything but simplistic. the basic principle is stated simplisticly, but the literal interpretation of the cosmology isn't simplistic at all.
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Old 08-21-2012, 05:48 PM
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Ishamael implies that the Dragon is always the champion of the Creator against the Dark One. That every turning of the Wheel, the Dragon faces the Dark One. So I would assume that the Dragon only lives twice per turning, once in the Second Age, when the Bore is opened, and once in the Third Age, when he permanently seals the Bore until the next Second Age. There's no reason for the Dragon to be born if the Dark One is sealed up. Of course, this assumes that the Dark One is permanently sealed at the end of the Third Age. Maybe there's another Bore in the 4th or 5th Age, followed by another Tarmon Gai'don in the 6th or 7th Age. All we really know is that the prison is whole when we come back around to the Second Age.

I don't think the One Power could simply not exist in other ages, though, but rather people would forget how to use it or go into hiding. After all, the One Power turns the Wheel of Time, so Ages couldn't pass without it. It's likely that in those times without channeling, those who could learn to channel just never did, and those with the spark either died or became wilders who didn't know that they could channel and therefore never did it consciously or for anything inexplicable, like Nynaeve. That is until Tamyrlin (Merlin) (re)discovered channeling.
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by NobleHam View Post
Ishamael implies that the Dragon is always the champion of the Creator against the Dark One. That every turning of the Wheel, the Dragon faces the Dark One. So I would assume that the Dragon only lives twice per turning, once in the Second Age, when the Bore is opened, and once in the Third Age, when he permanently seals the Bore until the next Second Age. There's no reason for the Dragon to be born if the Dark One is sealed up. Of course, this assumes that the Dark One is permanently sealed at the end of the Third Age. Maybe there's another Bore in the 4th or 5th Age, followed by another Tarmon Gai'don in the 6th or 7th Age. All we really know is that the prison is whole when we come back around to the Second Age.

I don't think the One Power could simply not exist in other ages, though, but rather people would forget how to use it or go into hiding. After all, the One Power turns the Wheel of Time, so Ages couldn't pass without it. It's likely that in those times without channeling, those who could learn to channel just never did, and those with the spark either died or became wilders who didn't know that they could channel and therefore never did it consciously or for anything inexplicable, like Nynaeve. That is until Tamyrlin (Merlin) (re)discovered channeling.
The problem with this line of thought is that Robert Jordan is quoted as saying that the dragon soul is spun out in other ages in a non-dragon role. Check Terez' signature for a link to the quotes database.
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  #57  
Old 12-14-2012, 11:00 PM
Lost One Lost One is offline
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Default In our Age, was the Dragon Turned?

Yes.. I am new here and still going through all of these wonderful threads. Been reading the sacred text since it a friend introduced me to it in the early 90's, and just finished re-reading the series. ( I really hoe the world does nto end on the 21st..lol).

I was reading browsing the theories, and came across one someone had addressed all of the various forms of symbolism, ie, the Dragon+ the serpent eating its tail, ect.. and another which dealt with Lucifer in relation to the Bringer of Light (I did find that one).

ODEN: 2011-05-01 (#31)
"Moridin beeing more than an elevated forsaken fits with RJ's use of myths. Ishamael, betrayer of hope, is not far from the fall of Lucifer. He was one of the arch angels and is now known as the devil, at least in some christian cultures and in movies.

You can also say that the dragon is Lucifer because Lucifer means light-bearer or light-bringer, in latin, and it's said to be derived from morning star. I think the name is all we need to say that Lucifer is the dragon.
Light-bringer - Champion of the Light
Morning star - Lord of the morning "

In the books, I think it is Ishmael who says that there have been ages in which the Dragon was turned to the Dark one. We also know that events of “our” Age are referred to as stories from before the AOL, ie Lenn who flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made fire,.. Mosk with his lance of fire, .. (TEOTW, chapter 4, page 43).
In our age, with Lucifer being referred to as the Dragon, as well as the serpent (which is some cultures also means Dragon).. Might this be an age when the Dragon was turned to the DO with Lucifer/the Dragon succumbing to Shaitan/Satan?

Possibilities?
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:02 AM
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It's possible that we live in an age where the Dragon turned and The Lord of the Morning became a champion of the DO. It's also possible that the stories have merely become so incredibly corrupted that we no longer understand that The Lord of the Morning really was the champion of the light.

Although, given my personal little hope that Ishy is a former "dragon" that turned, this gives me a bit to think about. Thanks, Lost One.

(Regarding the world ending and the loss of the last book, I've decided that this is inevitable...
Around CoS coming out, I hooked my dad on the series. Once he was well and truly into it, he asked me "when does it end?"
I said, "Well, RJ says three books. RJ has been saying three more books since TGH."
My father then decided to tell me that either he was going to die before the series ended, in which case he'd haunt me or the author was going to die without finishing it, in which case he'd kill me.
You get where this is going... I've decided that the world will obviously end on the 21st just to make my father's prophecy of not being able to finish the series true. I keep telling him that the book is written and it WILL be in a library in heaven...
Also, thank you Brandon Sanderson for saving my life.)
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:56 AM
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We know Rands soul is the creators champion and that him and Ishy are linked/often spun out together a la Birgitte/Gaidal. When you say Ishy was the creators champion are you suggesting they switch place occasionally?
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:09 AM
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"Light Bringer" was a title used by a Babylonian (or similar) king. Just as pharaohs in Egypt and emperors in Japan claimed to be descended from the Sun god or even to be incarnations of that Sun god, so too did this king claim heavenly antecedents.

The belief that it refers to Satan is a result of a misunderstanding by someone who read the text but did not know the actual background.
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