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  #41  
Old 02-21-2012, 03:39 PM
Universum Universum is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
I think that she was simply using a variation on the AS approach to truth. We know that they can leave out facts which are relevant, if that suits them. In this case, she left out part of her instructions, because they were obvious to her audience:

New Spring, chapter 2
"Stay!" Tamra barked. [...] "You will tell no one about this, not for any reason. If necessary, lie. Even to a sister. Everyone else has to believe that Gitara died without speaking. Do you understand me?

The bolded part was added by me. I think that Tamra left that out because it was not necessary; they knew the truth anyway, and she knew that they knew.
I never interpreted the "AS approach of truth" like that. I just figure that they are great at twisting and bending words. "Gitara died without speaking" is, to me, a straight out lie, no matter how you twist and turn it.
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  #42  
Old 02-21-2012, 04:04 PM
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"Gitara died without speaking" is, to me, a straight out lie, no matter how you twist and turn it.
Did you read the Jordan quote provided already? It's no more a lie than sarcastically stating that a black cloth is white. The Oath requires intent to deceive, and Tamra didn't intend to deceive Moiraine and Siuan.
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  #43  
Old 02-21-2012, 04:27 PM
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Did you read the Jordan quote provided already? It's no more a lie than sarcastically stating that a black cloth is white. The Oath requires intent to deceive, and Tamra didn't intend to deceive Moiraine and Siuan.
Aye, or that a white dress is green.
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  #44  
Old 02-21-2012, 04:37 PM
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And of course Sheriam doesn't have red hair. She never..
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  #45  
Old 02-21-2012, 06:34 PM
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Of course, Sheriam is a special case. I'd say that Fun with Oaths incident falls in the same category as "will never show the test for Aes Sedai in the books". As little as people like to hear it, Sanderson wasn't Jordan, and in some cases it's obvious where he wrote things or came up with specific plot details.

Verin and the green dress aren't necessarily in the same category (although they probably are), because Egwene has an imperfect knowledge of how the Oaths work. Besides, Verin very quickly followed up with "I'm Black Ajah", which either meant she was still bound to the oaths and telling the truth, or she wasn't bound and thus was Black Ajah since they were the only ones aside from the ferrets who knew about foreswearing.
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  #46  
Old 02-22-2012, 06:54 AM
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Did you read the Jordan quote provided already? It's no more a lie than sarcastically stating that a black cloth is white. The Oath requires intent to deceive, and Tamra didn't intend to deceive Moiraine and Siuan.
Yes, I read the quote. However, to me it feels as if he has "made that up afterwards". I don't think that you should "have" to go to external sources (in a work of fiction) in order to get all the facts straight. Therefore I choose to believe it to be an honest mistake.
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  #47  
Old 02-22-2012, 07:13 AM
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Yes, I read the quote. However, to me it feels as if he has "made that up afterwards". I don't think that you should "have" to go to external sources (in a work of fiction) in order to get all the facts straight. Therefore I choose to believe it to be an honest mistake.
You don't have to go to an external source to make a logical deduction on how the oaths work from what Tamra said. Tamra said something that wasn't true. That means either (a) she was BA or (b) the oaths don't work that way, and we know she was not BA. Going to (c) it was a mistake is actually going outside of cannon, because it presumes there is no in-story explanation for why she was able to say what she did. According to your own principle, you should look for an in-cannon reason for how what happened happened before jumping to the interview database or an assumption that it was a mistake. In my view, cannon always trumps word of God (or silence of God, as the case may be).
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  #48  
Old 02-22-2012, 11:25 AM
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Yes, I read the quote. However, to me it feels as if he has "made that up afterwards". I don't think that you should "have" to go to external sources (in a work of fiction) in order to get all the facts straight.
Why should all facts have to be straight in a work of fiction? The very fact that you're looking for hard and fast "fact" on an issue like this in a book that suffers from an non-omniscient narrator renders your crusade against outside sources absolutely silly. We don't have a canon (it's canon, ZS, not cannon) explanation of all the cases in which the oaths kick in and which they do not. We have assumptions from certain characters, some of which are correct and some of which are not. Assuming that because your limited understanding doesn't fit a situation doesn't mean the situation is a mistake.
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  #49  
Old 02-22-2012, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Grig View Post
Why should all facts have to be straight in a work of fiction? The very fact that you're looking for hard and fast "fact" on an issue like this in a book that suffers from an non-omniscient narrator renders your crusade against outside sources absolutely silly. We don't have a canon (it's canon, ZS, not cannon) explanation of all the cases in which the oaths kick in and which they do not. We have assumptions from certain characters, some of which are correct and some of which are not. Assuming that because your limited understanding doesn't fit a situation doesn't mean the situation is a mistake.
It's a cannon when I'm shooting you down with it.
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  #50  
Old 02-22-2012, 12:31 PM
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I like that. I'll have to use it sometime.
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  #51  
Old 02-23-2012, 12:24 AM
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I think it is remarkable that the Oaths are the central theme of three or four of the current 'active' threads. I wonder why everyone started pondering them at the same time. This thread, the oaths/circles/BA thread, the stilling thread, and the Egwene thread (although it looks like fionwe conceded the point there).

Do we all meditate on the Oaths independently, or does the act of meditation spawn further ponderings?
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  #52  
Old 02-23-2012, 05:02 AM
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Do we all meditate on the Oaths independently, or does the act of meditation spawn further ponderings?
Yes.

In case you're wondering: I saidared that answer.

Edited to add:
We're probably overanalyzing the Three Oaths. RJ tried to make them consistent while also pointing out the inevitable flaws such things would have. He knew there were such flaws; that's both in the books and in the interviews. We know there are flaws, they follow from simple logic. Yet, at the same time, the TO do have a clear and obvious effect, and they mostly do what they were intended to do. Which, of course, means that we're simply arguing over the precise definition of "mostly" in this case. The limits of what the Oaths do and do not allow depend at least in part on the individual AS, and of course on what that AS has learned from observing other AS bound by those Oaths. Which means that somehow the BA Oaths have to include a clause about follow the standard variation as often as possible.
Now, the fact that we won't get anywhere with these discussions because eventually it depends on the interpretation of the author won't stop us from continuing to argue.

Last edited by GonzoTheGreat; 02-23-2012 at 05:10 AM.
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  #53  
Old 03-04-2012, 10:38 PM
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From what I read here it sounds like she was telling someone else to lie for her. We know an Aes Sedai can let others lie for her but can they tell others to lie for them. What happens if a Aes Sedai gets dementia. How would that affect the oaths. On another note Rand knows about the BA, but does he know they are not bound by the three oaths. If he does why does he trust the Aes Sedai who swear to him. If he doesn't why for the love of the light can't he use some deductive reasoning and figure that a BA couldn't do darkfriend stuff if they were bound by them.
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