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  #21  
Old 03-14-2012, 07:26 PM
Grig Grig is offline
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Incidentally, the theory up on theoryland.com right now really makes a good case as to why Jordan thought it was obvious. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but we have two Forsaken who have spent time in Arad Doman. The Forsaken aren't known for roaming, they all went one place and established a solid power base. One of those that were in Arad Doman goes rogue, then turns up dead. Huh, how can that not seem obvious?
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  #22  
Old 03-14-2012, 07:35 PM
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Did we know that Graendel was in Arad Domon at that point?

And what's more, I think the reason the mystery lasted as long as it did is that the answer really doesn't make any sense.
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  #23  
Old 03-14-2012, 07:52 PM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Did we know that Graendel was in Arad Domon at that point?

And what's more, I think the reason the mystery lasted as long as it did is that the answer really doesn't make any sense.
Asmodean mentioned that the last he'd seen Graendal she was in Arad Doman, but then suggested she'd probably moved at that point.
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  #24  
Old 03-14-2012, 07:57 PM
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In LoC chapter 23

Graendal talks to Sammael. She says basically straight out that Asmodean is dead.

How does she know if she didn't kill him?
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  #25  
Old 03-14-2012, 08:02 PM
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BTW

In tGS when they have Semirhage prisoner.
Why don't Rand do what he did to Asmodean in tSR?
Cut her off from DO.
That would crush her, the other forsaken wouldn't trust her and DO maybe couldn't respawn her
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  #26  
Old 03-14-2012, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
BTW

In tGS when they have Semirhage prisoner.
Why don't Rand do what he did to Asmodean in tSR?
Cut her off from DO.
That would crush her, the other forsaken wouldn't trust her and DO maybe couldn't respawn her
Only the male Forsaken had those "cords". It was protection from the taint on Saidin.
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  #27  
Old 03-14-2012, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
In LoC chapter 23

Graendal talks to Sammael. She says basically straight out that Asmodean is dead.

How does she know if she didn't kill him?
Right, because characters never state with conviction things that are flat-out wrong.

Healing stilling is impossible, you know.

Strength in the Power is equally distributed among men and women. Moiraine told us as much.

Only the Creator could have cleansed the taint from saidin. Oh, Rand al'Thor might say otherwise but Logain knows better.


Remember when Ishamael teased Rand about blowing the Horn of Valere? Bit of a reveal there because that's when Rand figured out that the Forsaken weren't all knowing.

I could list other examples but I saw no reason to take Graendel seriously.
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  #28  
Old 03-14-2012, 08:55 PM
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I didn't react to it until after it was revealed in ToM. Then when I did a re-read I spotted it.

I agree that it wasn't obvious and that many characters have wrong assumptions around things.

As they say assumption starts out with an ass.

(And no, I am not calling anyone an ass)
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  #29  
Old 10-25-2012, 01:21 PM
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Are you kidding me???

The one time I buy the audio book they uncover who killed Asmo in the fricken appendix!!!

The wheel weaves as the wheel weaves.
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  #30  
Old 10-25-2012, 01:30 PM
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The term for that is: HAFO.
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  #31  
Old 10-25-2012, 02:23 PM
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Wait a second, It does not say she killed him, it says she's responsible for his death. She could have had him knocked off for her.

"A ruthless killer, she was responsible for the deaths of Aran'gar and Asmodean and for the destruction of Mesaana."
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  #32  
Old 10-25-2012, 04:50 PM
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Wait a second, It does not say she killed him, it says she's responsible for his death. She could have had him knocked off for her.

"A ruthless killer, she was responsible for the deaths of Aran'gar and Asmodean and for the destruction of Mesaana."
Graendal admits it was her in person in TOM.
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  #33  
Old 10-25-2012, 05:28 PM
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Wow, I missed that. Do you happen to know when it occurred? Not saying I doubt you, but I would like to check it out. Has Branding flat out said the she killed him? She did not kill Aran'gar per say. She is however responsible for his death. I have to wonder if there is some word play going on.
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  #34  
Old 10-25-2012, 09:35 PM
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I like theorists who hang on long past the point of no return. Reminds me of me.

To your very correct and yet to be disproved theory Nazbaque, I can only say that theories relying on wishes are icky. Too contrived. However I agree about with your concept about what could cocnceivably be within the limits of Aelfinn and Eelfinn ability. I used the same logic regarding the Dark One for my own very correct and yet to be disproven theory that Moridin killed Asmodean.

Cheers!
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  #35  
Old 10-26-2012, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
In LoC chapter 23

Graendal talks to Sammael. She says basically straight out that Asmodean is dead.
Not a clincher. Graendal said last time they met that she thought Rand had killed her. After that her eyes-and-ears had not heard or seen him, so she regarded her theory as proven: Rand had killed him when he had no further use for him, that's what she would have done.
The real questions remain: why didn't she boast, and what would she be doing in the kitchen. She, too, thirsty after the battle?

But it only matters if it matters, otherwise why care? It's not as if he didn't deserve it.
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  #36  
Old 10-26-2012, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greycon View Post
Wow, I missed that. Do you happen to know when it occurred? Not saying I doubt you, but I would like to check it out. Has Branding flat out said the she killed him? She did not kill Aran'gar per say. She is however responsible for his death. I have to wonder if there is some word play going on.
It's a bit ambiguous (though a pretty clear reference) in the text itself, but it's spelled out in no uncertain terms in the glossary of... either GS or ToM, though now I can't remember if it was unde Asmodean or Graendal...
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  #37  
Old 10-26-2012, 04:57 AM
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There isn't an Asmodean section there, so it was under Graendal. But the relevant bit has already been quoted by Zombie Sammael, and it still leaves some uncertainty. Or at least, it leaves room for quibbling.
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  #38  
Old 10-29-2012, 10:55 AM
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There's just to much room for word play in it. Aran'gar was not killed by Graendal, he was killed by Rands Balefire. Graendal may be responsible for his death, but she did not kill him. So, with so much flexibility in the statement, She could have had somebody knock him off.
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  #39  
Old 10-29-2012, 06:17 PM
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Beside the reveal of the culprit, an episode of TGS very likely reveal to us humorously the circumstances of the murder, either this was conceived by RJ in the ouline or Brandon who's read the notes about the murder decided to do that (he's aware of the way RJ loved to repeat patterns for scenes, and had fun remixing the elements upside down).

In TGS to find Graendal Nyaneve goes straight to the servant's pantry in a palace Rand had recently thrown the occupant out of (yes, a pantry in the sense of a room for servants to store very commonly requested items, e.g.: some wine, tea etc. is established in WOT), sat down and asked servants to bring her the first maid (well, the equivalent). She hoped the woman would put her on the trail of spies of Graendal. That lead Nyaneve to a compelled agent, she unravelled his compulsion and died after saying just two words "Natrin's Barrow". Then Rand went and balefired Graendal massively with the CK, and Aran'gar was in the wrong place in the wrong time and got set up by Graendal.

Asmodean's murder:

Graendal came to Caemlyn in the wake of Rhavin's death. Asmodean knew her hiding place, and since Lanfear's plan obviously had backfired and Rand wasn't going for the planned target, Graendal had to come and try to get spies near Rand who could report to her. In truth, she probably already had someone spying for her on Rahvin.

Who's the best person in the palace to know everything, who has access to all the servants and can ask them questions, as she's expected to need to know all that goes on? Renee Harfor, who like other servants had rooms in the servant quarters.

Graendal went to a servants's pantry/common room, sat down and asked servants to fetch her Renee Harfor. She was perhaps even known in the palace, as a infrequent guest of Gaebril (it's not important) She would give the woman new compelled instructions about spying on Rand (and reporting to we-don't-know who... Graendal had so many spies she can't possibly have been handling their reporting herself).

Before or after or during her meeting with Renee (it doesn't matter, Graendal would have compelled anyone present to forget everything forever), Asmodean opened the door to that servant common room/hall to the quarters etc. Graendal killed him with a very very small amount of balefire. She couldn't remove more than seconds, for the fear of being detected and because for all she knew Asmodean had interacted with Rand a minute ago. But Asmodean was too far from SG, the DO didn't managed it.

Graendal then opened a gateway to a transit place, then as she wasn't pursued she went back home. She got her spies in the palace observing Rand (as she seemed to have had in all his "lairs" as the series progressed), he never came for her. She went to the DO, reporting to him she had gone to Caemlyn and dealt with the traitor, no point telling him it was an accident/roadkill.
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  #40  
Old 10-30-2012, 09:02 AM
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Exactly. Personally, I was never all that concerned over who killed him. It was just a matter of time before someone got him and I was/am more concerned with things that still meant something like the identity of Mesaana and location/identity/proxy of Demandred.
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