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  #1  
Old 06-05-2012, 05:55 AM
Maesterbaevern Maesterbaevern is offline
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Default Ilyena - HoTH?

I have found several threads considering whether Ilyena has been reborn as either Elayne or as fractioned into all three of the Harem girls. I also found one thread speculating around Alivia as well.

However, two old inputs in a thread at TarValon.net disregards Ilyena as tied to the wheel.

Do we have any evidence of that Ilyena was/wasn't tied to the Wheel?
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  #2  
Old 06-05-2012, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Maesterbaevern View Post
I have found several threads considering whether Ilyena has been reborn as either Elayne or as fractioned into all three of the Harem girls. I also found one thread speculating around Alivia as well.

However, two old inputs in a thread at TarValon.net disregards Ilyena as tied to the wheel.

Do we have any evidence of that Ilyena was/wasn't tied to the Wheel?
We don't have any evidence one way or another for Ilyena. IMO that translates to "probably not" a HotH.
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  #3  
Old 06-05-2012, 09:39 AM
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We know from RJ that souls can't be split, so we know she's not fractioned, and that's why most people don't like the idea that she's a Hero. If she's tied to Rand, then that gives her a prominence over his other two women; she gets to hang out with him in the afterlife, and they don't. Also, Birgitte's comment to him at Falme seems to suggest he's not always tied to the same woman.
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  #4  
Old 06-05-2012, 09:42 AM
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I would say that if she had been a HotH, then Rand/LTT would've realised that during the Epiphany on the Mount. But that is only circumstantial evidence at best, so it isn't wholly convincing.
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  #5  
Old 06-05-2012, 07:18 PM
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More along the lines of loony theory, but I personally kind of like the idea that Lanfear pulled a Moghedien and ripped Ilyena from T'A'R to ensure that she and LTT never met again in another life, with Min, Elayne and Aviendha each possessing some critical facet of her personality, represented by the three women on a boat.
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  #6  
Old 06-05-2012, 07:42 PM
Jasin Natael Jasin Natael is offline
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Isn't everyone tied to the Wheel? You don't have to be a Hero to be reborn in another age.
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  #7  
Old 06-05-2012, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Jasin Natael View Post
Isn't everyone tied to the Wheel? You don't have to be a Hero to be reborn in another age.
Makes me wonder. Why does Lanfear never worry about Ilyena being reborn? She knows LTT was, and presumably like the rest of the Forsaken, knows about the presence of the heroes in T'A'R. Even if Ilyena weren't reborn as HoTH, that still leaves a good chance that she'll come back this time around. Yet Lanfear never seems concerned about it, even though the woman is the obvious greatest threat for LTT's affections. Hmm!
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  #8  
Old 06-05-2012, 08:53 PM
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Makes me wonder. Why does Lanfear never worry about Ilyena being reborn? She knows LTT was, and presumably like the rest of the Forsaken, knows about the presence of the heroes in T'A'R. Even if Ilyena weren't reborn as HoTH, that still leaves a good chance that she'll come back this time around. Yet Lanfear never seems concerned about it, even though the woman is the obvious greatest threat for LTT's affections. Hmm!
Ilyena being reborn is only a problem For Lanfear if she's linked to the Dragon Soul (LTT/Rand) the way Birgitte and Gaidal Cain are linked. Given the Prophecy and Foretellings about Rand's Three Queens, I think that it is fairly obvious she isn't.
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  #9  
Old 06-05-2012, 09:10 PM
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"I cannot imagine what is keeping Ilyena. She will give me the rough side of her tongue if she thinks I have been hiding a guest from her. I hope you enjoy conversation, for she surely does. Be forewarned. Ilyena will ask you so many questions you may end up telling her everything you know."
So, she's naturally curious, inquisitive and loves the chance to meet strangers. Of all Rand's women, she sounds the most like Min.

It also works from a themematic standpoint. Lews Therin killed Ilyena, Rand choked Min. In both cases, what he wants most is forgiveness.

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Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well
He's obviously still in love with Ilyena and I think that he views her as his soul mate. Of the three women, the one who he's closest to, his best friend is Min.

I think she's Min.
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  #10  
Old 06-05-2012, 09:15 PM
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Ileyna was an Aes Sedai, so Min is out.

Last edited by frenchie; 06-05-2012 at 09:15 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #11  
Old 06-05-2012, 09:47 PM
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Ileyna was an Aes Sedai, so Min is out.
How does that track?
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He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
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  #12  
Old 06-05-2012, 09:49 PM
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So, she's naturally curious, inquisitive and loves the chance to meet strangers. Of all Rand's women, she sounds the most like Min.

It also works from a themematic standpoint. Lews Therin killed Ilyena, Rand choked Min. In both cases, what he wants most is forgiveness.



He's obviously still in love with Ilyena and I think that he views her as his soul mate. Of the three women, the one who he's closest to, his best friend is Min.

I think she's Min.
It also helps that I suspect Rand's relationship with Avi and Elayne is planned by the pattern to keep the nations and their peoples tied to Rand. Min, to be at least, seems like the only legitimate relationship Rand has.
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  #13  
Old 06-05-2012, 09:54 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
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It also helps that I suspect Rand's relationship with Avi and Elayne is planned by the pattern to keep the nations and their peoples tied to Rand. Min, to be at least, seems like the only legitimate relationship Rand has.
Agreed.
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He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
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  #14  
Old 06-05-2012, 09:55 PM
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How does that track?
Min is a non-channeler. Ileyna could channel.
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  #15  
Old 06-05-2012, 09:57 PM
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Min is a non-channeler. Ileyna could channel.
And....?
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He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
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  #16  
Old 06-05-2012, 10:32 PM
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And....?
...and the ability to channel is attached to the soul.



I am surprised you seem to be forgetting all the interview quotes about this.... I suggest a quick perusal through Terez's database.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:02 PM
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If I recall correctly, the ability to channel is both genetic and tied to the soul. Genetic means that it's a mutation - I was going to say random mutation but it wouldn't be random in a cyclic universe - and that means that channelers are, in fact, anatomically different from normal people.

So, one must meet two conditions to be a channeler.


1) Have a soul capable of touching the True Source.

2) Be born into a body with the genetic mutation that allows for channeling.

So, Min could very well have a channeling soul in a body that simply lacks the equipment. After all, her ability is remarkably similar to Foretelling. The fact that Ilyena was an Aes Sedai doesn't mean anything in this discussion. We know for a fact that channelers can be reborn as non-channelers because Rand has lived in all seven Ages and not all of those Ages feature the One Power.

That's why it took me a moment to understand Frenchie's point. I thought this was common knowledge on TL.
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He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
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  #18  
Old 06-05-2012, 11:07 PM
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If I recall correctly, the ability to channel is both genetic and tied to the soul. Genetic means that it's a mutation - I was going to say random mutation but it wouldn't be random in a cyclic universe - and that means that channelers are, in fact, anatomically different from normal people.

So, one must meet two conditions to be a channeler.


1) Have a soul capable of touching the True Source.

2) Be born into a body with the genetic mutation that allows for channeling.

So, Min could very well have a channeling soul in a body that simply lacks the equipment. After all, her ability is remarkably similar to Foretelling. The fact that Ilyena was an Aes Sedai doesn't mean anything in this discussion. We know for a fact that channelers can be reborn as non-channelers because Rand has lived in all seven Ages and not all of those Ages feature the One Power.

That's why it took me a moment to understand Frenchie's point. I thought this was common knowledge on TL.
Can we be certain that Min is incapable of channeling? She obviously isn't a sparker, but a number of sisters (e.g. Sheriam) seemed interested in trying to get her into novice white in the early books. That sounds like potential channeler who chose not to learn to me...
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  #19  
Old 06-05-2012, 11:24 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
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Can we be certain that Min is incapable of channeling? She obviously isn't a sparker, but a number of sisters (e.g. Sheriam) seemed interested in trying to get her into novice white in the early books. That sounds like potential channeler who chose not to learn to me...
No, I don't think so.

RJ worked very hard to establish Min as a non-channeler. I don't think she's a Learner.

But again, it doesn't matter. Channeling souls can be born into non-channeling bodies, she seems to be Rand's soulmate (he's comfortable around her in ways that he isn't around anyone else) and the scene where he chokes her mirrors the death of Ilyena.

From a thematic standpoint, Min makes the most sense. People always assume Elayne because she has sunhair and her name sounds like Ilyena.

But does Rand sound like Lews Therin?

And if you read the description when Rand almost changes in TAR, you'll notice that Lews Therin has dark skin. Rand, on the other hand, is as Wonder Bread as they come.
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He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
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  #20  
Old 06-06-2012, 12:08 AM
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If I recall correctly, the ability to channel is both genetic and tied to the soul.
Channeling souls are spun out into bodies with the capability.

PS—For your convenience, some of that common knowledge among Theorylanders.
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Last edited by Terez; 06-06-2012 at 12:21 AM.
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